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The 'attractive venue' is the problem.
Jesus is never an attractive venue.
The gospel is never attractive.
Jesus made Himself of no reputation.
There was no comeliness in Him that we would desire Him. (Isa. 53)
No flash.
Yet He was bruised for our transgressions.
No one will pay good money to go see that on a concert night....
to busy with "today's Tom Sawyer", or "Sounds of Silence"(Simon and Garfunkel), or "The Times, They Are a Changin'"(Bob Dylan)
The world always misses Him because it is the world.
He must draw them out of it like fish. - (one soul at a time)
Jesus is never an attractive venue.
The gospel is never attractive.
Jesus made Himself of no reputation.
There was no comeliness in Him that we would desire Him. (Isa. 53)
No flash.
Yet He was bruised for our transgressions.
No one will pay good money to go see that on a concert night....
to busy with "today's Tom Sawyer", or "Sounds of Silence"(Simon and Garfunkel), or "The Times, They Are a Changin'"(Bob Dylan)
The world always misses Him because it is the world.
He must draw them out of it like fish. - (one soul at a time)
A
no Acts 2 clearly show that its referring to people prophecying AT THAT TIME. however if you can't get that basic concept.....
you degrade the wonder of what happened when Jesus walked the earth and it saddens me.
just to be clear. the sun was darkened BEFORE the veil was torn. never said that phrase referred to the lunar eclipse.
i could show you how the prophecy was fulfilled but I doubt you would listen.
you degrade the wonder of what happened when Jesus walked the earth and it saddens me.
just to be clear. the sun was darkened BEFORE the veil was torn. never said that phrase referred to the lunar eclipse.
i could show you how the prophecy was fulfilled but I doubt you would listen.
A
too many people ignore when Jesus says IN THIS GENERATION. Too many people want to write themselves into the Bible and out of pride want to make the wonder of what happen lesser so they too can claim to be great as the Apostles and prophets. The foundation has been laid, why can't people learn how to build the walls instead of constructing their own foundation? There is only ONE cornerstone, there is only ONE foundation.
I believe that GOD still gives His spiritual gifts to His people. However I don't agree about how many of them are taught in the church today. I believe in His promises and I believe the SIGNS AND WONDERS of the last age was to confirm that JESUS CHRIST is Lord and Savior the FIRST Time He came. Its not future, its fulfilled. IF you don't see how then you should pray and read the Bible again because that veil is still there for you.
what is future is the FALSE signs and wonders used to deceive people, bigger flasher, or alluring. very attractive False gospel of prosperity.
Greenie you never address the fact that one of the definitions of prophecy was spoken from the mouth of a FALSE PROPHET.
I love you but at this time I think I'm just going to pray and read my Bible.
I believe that GOD still gives His spiritual gifts to His people. However I don't agree about how many of them are taught in the church today. I believe in His promises and I believe the SIGNS AND WONDERS of the last age was to confirm that JESUS CHRIST is Lord and Savior the FIRST Time He came. Its not future, its fulfilled. IF you don't see how then you should pray and read the Bible again because that veil is still there for you.
what is future is the FALSE signs and wonders used to deceive people, bigger flasher, or alluring. very attractive False gospel of prosperity.
Greenie you never address the fact that one of the definitions of prophecy was spoken from the mouth of a FALSE PROPHET.
I love you but at this time I think I'm just going to pray and read my Bible.
You keep saying - "at that time" Ariel.
"At this time", "at this time", "at that time"........
It isn't in scripture that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was just for: "at that time"; - (Acts chapter 2)
I've looked and read and reread,.....it's just not there.
You are reading into it something that isn't stated.
"At this time", "at this time", "at that time"........
It isn't in scripture that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was just for: "at that time"; - (Acts chapter 2)
I've looked and read and reread,.....it's just not there.
You are reading into it something that isn't stated.
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Do you really think that Peter was saying the whole church age outpouring of the Holy Spirit was just for that time and place in Jerusalem?
Did others dream dreams and prophecy(Joel) later? Did others speak in tongues later?
Read the rest of acts as well as other books in the new testament.
People were speaking in tongues and engaging in prophecy well after the day of Pentecost or the revival in Jerusalem that day caused.
Did others dream dreams and prophecy(Joel) later? Did others speak in tongues later?
Read the rest of acts as well as other books in the new testament.
People were speaking in tongues and engaging in prophecy well after the day of Pentecost or the revival in Jerusalem that day caused.
I'm saying it is prophesying of things to come, ohzone, way beyond the Pentecost time. That is correct, NONE of the GREAT END TIMES SIGNS AND WONDERS HAVE HAPPENED . Sure enough for ya 
The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events. This is what was prophesied.
The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events. This is what was prophesied.
if that's what you are saying, you're in direct opposition to what it says.
New International Version (©1984)
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
New Living Translation (©2007)
No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:
English Standard Version (©2001)
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
On the contrary, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
International Standard Version (©2012)
Rather, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“But this is what was spoken by Joel, The Prophet:”
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Rather, this is what the prophet Joel spoke about:
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
American King James Version
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
American Standard Version
but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
Douay-Rheims Bible
But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel:
Darby Bible Translation
but this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel,
English Revised Version
but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;
Webster's Bible Translation
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel,
Weymouth New Testament
But that which was predicted through the Prophet Joel has happened:
World English Bible
But this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel:
Young's Literal Translation
'But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
This is that - This is the fulfillment of that, or this was predicted. This was the second part of Peter's argument, to show that this was in accordance with the predictions in their own Scriptures.
Barnes
Spoken by the prophet Joel - The prophecy which he delivered so long ago is just now fulfilled; and this is another proof that Jesus whom ye have crucified is the Messiah.
Clarkes
But this is that which was spoken by the {k} prophet Joel;
(k) There is nothing that can dissolve questions and doubt except testimony taken out of the Prophets: for men's reasonings may be overturned, but God's voice cannot be overturned
Geneva
2:16 This is that which was spoken. He turns to their prophets for an explanation.
By the prophet Joel. Who lived about 800 B.C. See Joe 3:1-5.
PNT
2:16 But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet - But there is another and better way of accounting for this. Joel 2:28
Wesley
2:14-21 Peter's sermon shows that he was thoroughly recovered from his fall, and thoroughly restored to the Divine favour; for he who had denied Christ, now boldly confessed him. His account of the miraculous pouring forth of the Spirit, was designed to awaken the hearers to embrace the faith of Christ, and to join themselves to his church. It was the fulfilling the Scripture, and the fruit of Christ's resurrection and ascension, and proof of both. Though Peter was filled with the Holy Ghost, and spake with tongues as the Spirit gave him utterance, yet he did not think to set aside the Scriptures
Henry
~
if it all didn't happen at Pentecost, WHAT DID HAPPEN AT PENTECOST?
love you
zone
the gifts ceased when they were no longer need for NEW REVELATION and edification of an infant church - the complete revealing of the NT doctrine (will and Plan of God, God breathed scriptures able to save) HAS COME.....hasn't it?
Paul said they would cease. they did.
what goes on today has nothing in common with those miraculous gifts.
Paul said they would cease. they did.
what goes on today has nothing in common with those miraculous gifts.
Rick...i think, but may be wrong....you were referring to what i said about Paul (in post above yours, about paul saying the gifts would cease).
but since you didn't quote my post using [ / quote ].....i will likely land in trouble for responding; misunderstanding or whatever.
so henceforth i won't reply to posts not responding directly to someone's remarks, highlighting what you are referencing.
love zone
but since you didn't quote my post using [ / quote ].....i will likely land in trouble for responding; misunderstanding or whatever.
so henceforth i won't reply to posts not responding directly to someone's remarks, highlighting what you are referencing.
love zone
I'm saying it is prophesying of things to come, ohzone, way beyond the Pentecost time. That is correct, NONE of the GREAT END TIMES SIGNS AND WONDERS HAVE HAPPENED . Sure enough for ya
The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events. This is what was prophesied.
Signs and wonders happened in Apostles' gifts time, but TAME by comparison to things.to come !
The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events. This is what was prophesied.
Signs and wonders happened in Apostles' gifts time, but TAME by comparison to things.to come !
"The whole of Acts 2 speaks of continuation of ONE event to come, in catastrophic detail, not two events."
then we ought to be able to show continuation throughout history.
"Signs and wonders happened in Apostles' gifts time, but TAME by comparison to things.to come !"
really? so people today (or in the future) will do more than Jesus and the Apostles did?
where does it say that?
green, i love you, and i 'see' your love and devotion to Our Lord.
i don't question that nor consider you anything but a brother.
you may or may not feel the same way toward me (that's okay...please don't answer)
but i want you to know i love you.
zone
~
i do see this written:
2 Chronicles 18
And the LORD said, ‘These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.’” 17And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?” 18And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 20Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ 21And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 22Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The LORD has declared disaster concerning you.”
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Ariel,
The church age started at Pentecost and has not ended.
I read what you said.
I didn't skip a word.
I responded to what you claimed.
You claim the signs and wonders have ceased, yet you say the gifts are still in effect.
How can both be true?
Is a word of knowledge not a wonder to an unbeliever?
Is not a healing a sign?
I asked you when they ceased?
(What scripture references do you have)
I Corinthians 13:10?
1 Corinthians 13:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The 'that which is in part' in verse 10 is referring to the two things which are "in part" in verse 9.
The idea is that "when that which is perfect is come" - there will no longer be [anything] that is "in part" - all will be "in full" - as in 'complete'.
The word 'perfect' means "mature" or "complete" (and 'that' is a "what" not a "who"). The words 'is come' cause the whole phrase to imply:
"At the time when 'that' reaches maturity."
Essentially, "the maturing of time" or "the end of the age"...
~ Christ comes back.
~ "the mystery of God should be finished." (Revelation 10:7)
~ we receive our "glorified" body.
('all things' will be "complete", and my understanding will be "full")
"but then shall I know even as also I am known."
The church age started at Pentecost and has not ended.
I read what you said.
I didn't skip a word.
I responded to what you claimed.
You claim the signs and wonders have ceased, yet you say the gifts are still in effect.
How can both be true?
Is a word of knowledge not a wonder to an unbeliever?
Is not a healing a sign?
I asked you when they ceased?
(What scripture references do you have)
I Corinthians 13:10?
1 Corinthians 13:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The 'that which is in part' in verse 10 is referring to the two things which are "in part" in verse 9.
The idea is that "when that which is perfect is come" - there will no longer be [anything] that is "in part" - all will be "in full" - as in 'complete'.
The word 'perfect' means "mature" or "complete" (and 'that' is a "what" not a "who"). The words 'is come' cause the whole phrase to imply:
"At the time when 'that' reaches maturity."
Essentially, "the maturing of time" or "the end of the age"...
~ Christ comes back.
~ "the mystery of God should be finished." (Revelation 10:7)
~ we receive our "glorified" body.
('all things' will be "complete", and my understanding will be "full")
"but then shall I know even as also I am known."
I'm having a difficult time figuring out which part GreenNnice got wrong on these "mixed up "definitions. Let's look:
Hebrew Strong's Number: 5012 Hebrew Word: ‏נָבָא‎ Transliteration: nābāʾ Phonetic Pronunciation:naw-baw: a primitive root
Part of Speech: v Vine's Words: Prophesy (To)
Usage Notes: English Words used in KJV: prophesy 111 prophesying 2 prophet 2
a primitive root; to prophesy, i.e. speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse) :- prophesy (-ing), make self a prophet.
Hebrew Strong's Number: 5030 Hebrew Word: ‏נָבִיא‎ Transliteration: nābמʾ Phonetic Pronunciation:naw-bee' Root: from <H5012> Cross Reference: TWOT - 1277a Part of Speech: n m Vine's Words: Prophesy (To)
Usage Notes: English Words used in KJV: from <H5012> (naba'); a prophet or (generical) inspired man :- prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.
Example: Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
NT words:
Greek Strong's Number: 4395 Greek Word: נסןצחפוύש Transliteration: prophēteuō Phonetic Pronunciation rof-ate-yoo'-o Root: from <G4396> Cross Reference: TDNT - 6:781,952 Part of Speech: v Vine's Words: Prophecy, Prophesy, Prophesying
from <G4396> (prophetes); to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office :- prophesy.
Greek Strong's Number: 4396 Greek Word: נסןצήפחע Transliteration: prophētēs Phonetic Pronunciation rof-ay'-tace Root: from a compound of <G4253> and <G5346> Cross Reference: TDNT - 6:781,952 Part of Speech: n m Vine's Words: Prophet
Usage Notes: English Words used in KJV:
prophet 149 from a compound of <G4253> (pro) and <G5346> (phemi); a foreteller (“prophet”); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet :- prophet.
Examples: Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet (Jesus), shall be destroyed from among the people.
Acts 2:16-18 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy (prophēteuō
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.From reading Strong's concordance, I just don't see anything "mixed up" here.
Perhaps there's a mixup on the word "witness".
All prophets are witnesses, but not all witnesses are prophets.
Example: any Christian could witness without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But, any Christian that does witness by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as in being led by the Holy Spirit, according to definition, that person is prophesying. Anyone who speaks by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit according to definition is prophesying. Read this good example:
John 11:49-52 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied (prophēteuō
that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. God inspired the high priest to say this. He quoted a previous prophecy. Yet according to the Scripture, he himself is prophesying. This fellow is not righteous according to either covenant. It's almost as if, in some people's eyes, God broke his own rules.
I don't see anything wrong with what GreenNnice has said so far.
G
Green,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU 100% about the events of Acts 2:19-20 being 'future' (and I am pretty sure you probably realized this when you re-read post #25 _ v e r y _ c a r e f u l l y _ ) - and there is "plenty loads" of scripture to back it up. Please see:
Grasp Truth - Order Of Events
Grasp Truth - Second Coming
But there can be no disputing what Peter says in Acts 2:16 - in which he very plainly states that what the people were witnessing was indeed a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.
What is not said by Peter - and which you must "compare scripture with scripture" to be able to see clearly - is that, Acts 2:17-18 is talking about 'events' just after the BEGINNING of the "last days" and Acts 2:19-20 is talking about 'events' just before the END of the "last days"...
The 'last days' are ALL of the days between the ascension of Christ and the return of Christ.
This prophecy of Joel - "spans" - "the whole 2000 years"...
This entire "era" or "age" IS - "in totality" - the 'last days'.
.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU 100% about the events of Acts 2:19-20 being 'future' (and I am pretty sure you probably realized this when you re-read post #25 _ v e r y _ c a r e f u l l y _
) - and there is "plenty loads" of scripture to back it up. Please see:Grasp Truth - Order Of Events
Grasp Truth - Second Coming
But there can be no disputing what Peter says in Acts 2:16 - in which he very plainly states that what the people were witnessing was indeed a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy.
What is not said by Peter - and which you must "compare scripture with scripture" to be able to see clearly - is that, Acts 2:17-18 is talking about 'events' just after the BEGINNING of the "last days" and Acts 2:19-20 is talking about 'events' just before the END of the "last days"...
The 'last days' are ALL of the days between the ascension of Christ and the return of Christ.
This prophecy of Joel - "spans" - "the whole 2000 years"...
This entire "era" or "age" IS - "in totality" - the 'last days'.
.
A
the problem with the original post and its definitions is the scriptures used do not say what the definition tries for it to say.
since big long post seem to confuse the issue I'll keep it short. for example
does not support the statement that prophesy is "to divine, to conjecture, to declare as a prophet might" at all but is people mocking Jesus as He is being tormented and telling Jesus to "prophesy who smote thee." which if you read in context of the other gospel accounts Jesus does not answer.
Matthew 26
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”
67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?”
since big long post seem to confuse the issue I'll keep it short. for example
does not support the statement that prophesy is "to divine, to conjecture, to declare as a prophet might" at all but is people mocking Jesus as He is being tormented and telling Jesus to "prophesy who smote thee." which if you read in context of the other gospel accounts Jesus does not answer.
Matthew 26
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”
67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?”