Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[TabinRivCA]

So, faced with the dichotomy in your theological viewpoint on this topic from the basis of demonstrated scripture, you're going to stick with your personal interpretation of Paul's meaning, all at the exclusion of the very names upon that city, and other verses I have presented?

Well, nothing new about that...

Go for it if it makes you feel better. It seems more a matter of pride from what I'm seeing in your rationale, but some might say that I'm biased because I'm Israeli, but it is what it is.

MM

Correction, I don't 'have a personal interpretation of Paul's meaning' I'm simply stating a Bible ref and a call out for Scripture to back your premise re wicked Babylon. You seem to be lacking in tolerance when you label or critique someone who is simply quoting Scripture. It's 'prideful' to know Scripture?
Also, when I asked for a Scripture to back your take on wicked Babylon being ancient Jerusalem, I'm open to learning. And btw, I'm of 50% Jewish ancestry myself and think it major that in all we do, to do what Jesus said, 'To love God and love others with all our hearts'.
That's a true follower of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

This is the first resurrection, as is shown here: Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The etherealists, however, see that in an entirely different light than the clear language spoken, making it unrecognizable.

MM

Revelation 20:4-6
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[Musicmaster]

Correction, I don't 'have a personal interpretation of Paul's meaning' I'm simply stating a Bible ref and a call out for Scripture to back your premise re wicked Babylon. You seem to be lacking in tolerance when you label or critique someone who is simply quoting Scripture. It's 'prideful' to know Scripture?

Not at all. The problem is when anyone attached meaning to a statement beyond its intent. So, did you or did you not intend to try and use 2 Corinthians 11:2 as your proof text that the Church is the bride of Christ, when in fact I showed otherwise, which leads to the inevitable inclusion that what Paul meant in that one verse was not a replacement of Israel with the Church as the bride, but that Paul was simply using comparative language given to his audience for relationship of a sort.

I already posted the verses concerning the names on that city, which were the very names of a people at whom was directed the very literal language for the bride of Christ and the designation thereof.

Sorry, but it's not easy to take lightly the mass exodus from the very words and meaning within scripture that remain ignored so that replacement theology keeps its foothold where it clearly does not belong.

Also, when I asked for a Scripture to back your take on wicked Babylon being ancient Jerusalem, I'm open to learning. And btw, I'm of 50% Jewish ancestry myself and think it major that in all we do, to do what Jesus said, 'To love God and love others with all our hearts'.
That's a true follower of Christ.

I posted the verses in post #67, as stated before. Perhaps you did not see that, but they are there.

MM

 

[Genez]

I would recommend your being more...inquisitive, because I presented from scripture the VERY strong case for the fact that replacement theology is absolutely wrong, especially given that the body of Christ is NOT going to dwell in the New Jerusalem, but rather in Heavenly places. Your lack for wanting to believe scripture is your problem, not mine.

Best of luck to you, because you're going to need it...

MM

We are going to dwell in fabulous resurrection bodies.... wherever we may find God having us to be.

 

[Inquisitor]

This confusion of yours is the result from a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

No failure on my part.

I was asking a question.

Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

LUKE 21:24
...and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke is clearly saying that Israel is surrounded by armies and her desolation is near.

Then Israel will be controlled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.

 

[Inquisitor]

Look up dual fulfillment. That means certain prophecies come to pass in part in the near future from when the prophecy was first announced and then happens again in full much later in time.

In terms of generation, the generation that sees them come to pass will witness them to the end. So in a dual fulfillment, the generation of the first fulfillment did see these things come to pass. In the second more complete fulfillment, the generation who sees them start will witness them to the end as well.

The first fulfillment in Judea has already come to pass. It will happen again at the end times in full when all the armies gather against it. That's why the future generation who sees this will have to flee too.


🦪

I looked up dual fulfillment but I am none the wiser.

Are you saying there is a third temple?

 

[Inquisitor]

This confusion of yours is the result from a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

You need to explain how "all things are fulfilled".

You also need to address the following verse.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

 

[sawdust]

The Evangelical teaching that the Church is the bride of Christ, it's false, and here's why:

Revelation 21:9-10, 12, 14, 24-26
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: ...
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ...
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

As we can see, it's the names of all the tribes of Israel, and the apostles that were written upon it, not Europe, America, Africa, or any other names of nations. Instead, we see that the nations bring tribute into the city, which would imply that they live outside the city for them to bring into the city the glory and honor from outside the city that will rest upon the new earth.

The body of Christ will not live there, and here's why:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul was speaking to the body of Christ, not Israel. The body of Christ will dwell in "heavenly places," not the New Earth nor the New Jerusalem.

MM

I've given some thought to what you have presented here and I have to say I remain unconvinced at this stage.

My first thought is, if this is Israel, why are the Apostles listed as the foundation? Surely Abraham, Isaac and Jacob form the foundation of Israel. Also, are not the Apostles given to the Church? (Eph.4:11)

As for the Tribes of Israel forming the gates, it would make sense to me as Israel is the entry point for the Church. Without Israel there would be no Church for it comprises both Jews and Gentiles beginning with the Jews.

I went back and read another of your posts and picked up on the following from post#67.

The Gentile believers were not a great mass within Jerusalem. It was populated by the bride...those who were of faith, and later scattered through persecution. If the Gentiles were the bride,

But the Gentiles are not the Bride, both Jews and Gentiles are and initially the Church was comprised mostly of Jews, therefore there did not have to be a great number of Gentiles in Jerusalem for the Church to be in existence in the place.

I think we can both agree the question is more complex than what we have both presented here. This may not be the thread for it though but if you wanted to start a thread "Is Israel or the Church the Bride of Christ?", I would definitely be interested. I appreciate time and inclination doesn't always lend it self to in depth discussion here so happy whatever you decide.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Not at all. The problem is when anyone attached meaning to a statement beyond its intent. So, did you or did you not intend to try and use 2 Corinthians 11:2 as your proof text that the Church is the bride of Christ, when in fact I showed otherwise, which leads to the inevitable inclusion that what Paul meant in that one verse was not a replacement of Israel with the Church as the bride, but that Paul was simply using comparative language given to his audience for relationship of a sort.

I already posted the verses concerning the names on that city, which were the very names of a people at whom was directed the very literal language for the bride of Christ and the designation thereof.

Sorry, but it's not easy to take lightly the mass exodus from the very words and meaning within scripture that remain ignored so that replacement theology keeps its foothold where it clearly does not belong.
I posted the verses in post #67, as stated before. Perhaps you did not see that, but they are there.

MM

Well I did use 2 Cor 11:2 from many Biblical sources online that the Body of Christ is the Bride to Christ the Head, but can't find any that support your theory. However, I did find one that agrees that spiritual Babylon is ancient Jerusalem, but the others I checked say these are 2 different locations and purposes. Not a matter of eternal salvation either topic, so I'll leave it at that. Thx though, your ideas got me into my research mode🙌 and away from landlady duties, for the moment.

 

[Genez]

No failure on my part.

I was asking a question.

Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

LUKE 21:24
...and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke is clearly saying that Israel is surrounded by armies and her desolation is near.

Then Israel will be controlled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.

When its completed, the world will return to the times of the Jews for the seven year Tribulation.

 

[Genez]

Well I did use 2 Cor 11:2 from many Biblical sources online that the Body of Christ is the Bride to Christ the Head, but can't find any that support your theory. However, I did find one that agrees that spiritual Babylon is ancient Jerusalem, but the others I checked say these are 2 different locations and purposes. Not a matter of eternal salvation either topic, so I'll leave it at that. Thx though, your ideas got me into my research mode🙌 and away from landlady duties, for the moment.

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. ​

He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own ​

body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— ​

for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father ​

and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” ​

This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church." ​

Ephesians 5:28-32​

Jews (and all OT believers) will not have the same resurrection body type as the Church,
which will be flesh like his own glorious *heavenly* body.

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, ​

the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything ​

under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his ​

glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21​

​

The Jews were promised and everlasting kingdom on the new earth.
They were not promised a new home in Heaven.....

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

the question is more complex than what we have both presented here. This may not be the thread for it though but if you wanted to start a thread "Is Israel or the Church the Bride of Christ?"

There is this two-part study:

Is The Body The Bride Of Christ?

Amen.

 

[Genez]

There is this two-part study:

Is The Body The Bride Of Christ?

Amen.

This might help by keeping it simple.

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.
He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own
body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."
Ephesians 5:28-32


How much does one need to explain?​

 

[Musicmaster]

We are going to dwell in fabulous resurrection bodies.... wherever we may find God having us to be.

Very true, and the Lord left it no mystery as to where that will be for the body of Christ, for Israel and for those who come from the tribulation period.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

No failure on my part.

I was asking a question.

Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

LUKE 21:24
...and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke is clearly saying that Israel is surrounded by armies and her desolation is near.

Then Israel will be controlled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.

I didn't see much of a question in there, but one thing I can say is that the Lord bringing about the dispensation of grace was an interruption of the prophetic program that would have moved forward had Israel not continued to reject Christ after His ascension. The mystery (hidden wisdom) was revealed only to Paul by Christ after that mystery had remained hidden in God alone rather than in the OT scriptures.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You need to explain how "all things are fulfilled".

You also need to address the following verse.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Christ spoke truly as to what was to happen. It's also true that all those things were NOT fulfilled, so there's nothing to explain.

Was Christ liar? No. How? Simply stated, He chose to initiate what was hidden in God from the creation of the world.

So, do you suppose the Lord had no right to set aside the prophet program on account of Israel's continued rejection of Him? If so, then why was the Lord wrong for having done that? After all, He spoke truly what WOULD have held true had Israel NOT continued to reject Him after His ascension.

So, please do explain why the Lord making a change to the timeline of this earth, contrary to His statements prior, on the basis of His own choosing?

MM

 

[Inquisitor]

When its completed, the world will return to the times of the Jews for the seven year Tribulation.

Do you have the scripture to support that interpretation.

What event is completed that will trigger the seven year tribulation?

Then what is the seven year tribulation?

 

[Genez]

Very true, and the Lord left it no mystery as to where that will be for the body of Christ, for Israel and for those who come from the tribulation period.

MM

In the US army one can have his home listed as Wyoming.
Yet be stationed in another part of the World on active duty

So will it be for the resurrected Body of Christ.
The Lord may station you to serve in some country on the new earth.
But... Your home remains heaven.

 

[TMS]

The pre tribulation rapture is a theory that came from futurism and dispensationalism. These are inventions of the devil and people have swallowed the lie hook lie and sinker.

History proves that this teaching is man made and is not from the Bible.
The devil is good a inventing false doctrines. He causes Confusion.

Look up Futurism yourself.

 

[Genez]

Do you have the scripture to support that interpretation.

What event is completed that will trigger the seven year tribulation?

The what is the seven year tribulation?

My question is?

Why don't you know these things for yourself that you must ask?
You mean, you have not been told hundreds of times already?
You have only been saved for months?

You can apply the following to me if you wish.
Why do some people have an affinity for false doctrine?
In your eyes? Why am I drawn to false teaching on this matter?