Question(s) to those who believe salvation can be lost

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Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#82
You stated that only by willfully sinning could one be lost and could never be saved again. You tried to suggest that this guy was not a believer . . . or that you couldn't say one way or the other.

You have backed yourself into a corner.
I also included Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. I clearly stated it..
I never made any judgement on the guy who had sexual relations with his mother.. Why,, Because the scripture does not say if he was willfully sinning or not.. I am being precise not to step outside the boundaries of the scripture provided.. Not to add too or take away from the passage quoted..

I have not backed myself into any corner...

I think you have become far to emotional in this discussion and that is causing you to fail to take the time to both read my replies properly and respond to them with a clear head..
 

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Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#83
If there is no more sacrifice for willful sin, then willfull sin can never be forgiven. Which means no one would be saved wouldn’t it? Who does not commit willful sin after they are saved?
There seems to be a problem with peoples definition of willful sin here...

Willfull sin is sinning knowing full well that it is against the will of God but also doing it with pride with an in your face attitude against God.. It is done with a clear rebellious pride against God..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#84
There seems to be a problem with peoples definition of willful sin here...

Willfull sin is sinning knowing full well that it is against the will of God but also doing it with pride with an in your face attitude against God.. It is done with a clear rebellious pride against God..
How do you come to this conclusion?
 

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Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#85
How do you come to this conclusion?
Merriam-Webster defintion of wilfull : not accidental : done deliberately or knowingly and often in conscious violation or disregard of the law, duty, or the rights of others willful injury. Other Words from willful. willfully adverb. willfulness noun. More from Merriam-Webster on willful.

This is not sin done because of a moment of weakness which later brings one regret.. It is sin that is done deliberatly with a rebellous pride against God.. People who sin wilfully are not repentant for it.. They are proud about it.. Like those who take part in gay pride parades.. They do not regret their sin they celebrate their abominations with pride..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#86
Merriam-Webster defintion of wilfull : not accidental : done deliberately or knowingly and often in conscious violation or disregard of the law, duty, or the rights of others willful injury. Other Words from willful. willfully adverb. willfulness noun. More from Merriam-Webster on willful.

This is not sin done because of a moment of weakness which later brings one regret.. It is sin that is done deliberatly with a rebellous pride against God.. People who sin wilfully are not repentant for it.. They are proud about it.. Like those who take part in gay pride parades.. They do not regret their sin they celebrate their abominations with pride..
Thanks

Just to note. Merrium Webster is not a good source to look up words ffrom the bible to get info. The bible was written in Greek and Hebrew and some chaldian, not english.

Willful means something that is known. Not just something that is done in ignorance or something you did not know was a sin..I think it is dangerous to excuse a sin we knowlingly commited as not a willful sin, We start to excuse our own sin, and if this becomes a habit, we are on a downward spiral.


If you know it is wrong to lie about something, and lie. You have commited a willful sin.
 

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Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#87
Thanks

Just to note. Merrium Webster is not a good source to look up words ffrom the bible to get info. The bible was written in Greek and Hebrew and some chaldian, not english.

Willful means something that is known. Not just something that is done in ignorance or something you did not know was a sin..I think it is dangerous to excuse a sin we knowlingly commited as not a willful sin, We start to excuse our own sin, and if this becomes a habit, we are on a downward spiral.

If you know it is wrong to lie about something, and lie. You have commited a willful sin.
If your definition of willful is correct then no one is saved and Jesus suffered death for nothing..

And i did not talk about sins done in ignorance of the Law..

Also i am not seeking to justify any sin..

All transgressions against the will of God is evil and worthy of the wrath of God..
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#88
If you know it is wrong to lie about something, and lie. You have commited a willful sin.
This 100%

Its so ridicilous watching people re-define the word willful.

Ive brought up David's adultery in discussing this with people and some have said to me David's sin wasnt willful, SERIOUSLY? They said David just was tempted and couldnt resist... Well if thats the case NO SIN is ever willful.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#89
If your definition of willful is correct then no one is saved and Jesus suffered death for nothing..

And i did not talk about sins done in ignorance of the Law..

Also i am not seeking to justify any sin..

All transgressions against the will of God is evil and worthy of the wrath of God..
That is only true if your interpretation of thr passage is correct,

And willful sin is willful sin, doing something you know is wrong, which we all have done,

Which is why we need to revisit what the author was actually trying to say

.

Finally ALL sin causes death your correct. Not just willful sins. Jesus paid for them all. If not. Whoever commits those sins are doomed for eternity.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#90
This 100%

Its so ridicilous watching people re-define the word willful.

Ive brought up David's adultery in discussing this with people and some have said to me David's sin wasnt willful, SERIOUSLY? They said David just was tempted and couldnt resist... Well if thats the case NO SIN is ever willful.
Even if that sin was by ignorance (which it was not) how do you defend dabvid murdering her husband. Was that unwillfull too?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#91
This 100%

Its so ridicilous watching people re-define the word willful.

Ive brought up David's adultery in discussing this with people and some have said to me David's sin wasnt willful, SERIOUSLY? They said David just was tempted and couldnt resist... Well if thats the case NO SIN is ever willful.
Was Davids sin forgiven by God.. Posting scripture in context:::

2 Samuel 12: LKV
1 "And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. {2} The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: {3} But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. {4} And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man’s lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. {5} And David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: {6} And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

{7} ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; {8} And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. {9} Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

{10} Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. {11} Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. {12} For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. {13} And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

How did David react to the Conviction of the LORD? Not with willfull in your face rebellion or pride for what He did.. He reacted by acknowledging his sin against the LORD and the LORD immediately revealed through Nathan that His sin was forgiven..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#92
Was Davids sin forgiven by God.. Posting scripture in context:::

2 Samuel 12: LKV
1 "And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. {2} The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: {3} But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. {4} And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man’s lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. {5} And David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: {6} And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

{7} ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; {8} And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. {9} Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

{10} Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. {11} Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. {12} For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. {13} And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

How did David react to the Conviction of the LORD? Not with willfull in your face rebellion or pride for what He did.. He reacted by acknowledging his sin against the LORD and the LORD immediately revealed through Nathan that His sin was forgiven..
David willfuly sinned man, Your making an excuse for him, Sorrow is not a payment for sin.. Sacrifice still had to be made for davids many sins, that sacrifice was the cross.
 

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Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#93
And willful sin is willful sin, doing something you know is wrong, which we all have done,

The by your definition, and your acknowledgement that you have committed willful sin, there is no more sacrifice for your sins and therefore you are damned..

Hebrews 10: KJV {26} For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

But of course i do not believe in your definition of willful sin..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#94
David willfuly sinned man, Your making an excuse for him, Sorrow is not a payment for sin.. Sacrifice still had to be made for davids many sins, that sacrifice was the cross.
I Never said Davids sin did not needed the sacrifice of the LORD Jesus on the cross.... It did..

I am making no excuses for David He sinned greatly but He acknowledged His sin and did not resist the conviction of God.. He submitted to Gods will.. And that is the Way of salvation for sinners..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#95
The by your definition, and your acknowledgement that you have committed willful sin, there is no more sacrifice for your sins and therefore you are damned..

Hebrews 10: KJV {26} For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

But of course i do not believe in your definition of willful sin..
Well of course I am not dammed,

Because your interpretation of that passage is flawed.

I believe Jesus, The only unpardonable sin (a sin which no sacriice could cover) is blasphemy of the spirit.

Rithink what Hebrews is saying It does not say what you think.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#96
I Never said Davids sin did not needed the sacrifice of the LORD Jesus on the cross.... It did..

I am making no excuses for David He sinned greatly but He acknowledged His sin and did not resist the conviction of God.. He submitted to Gods will.. And that is the Way of salvation for sinners..
He still commited willful sin.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#97
I have not read this whole thread. So I am sorry if this has already been addressed, but I would like to hear what people have to say on this matter.

I grew up in between two different denominations...Half my family are Southern Baptist and the other half of my family are Pentecostal Church of God... Not a whole lot they agreed on, but one thing both of them agreed on was that you could give up your salvation. They said Jesus would never leave you but you could leave him. Said you had to hold on till the end and if you backslid and turned from God back to a life sin then you had to repent and do your first works over which could even include being re-Baptized (Pentecostal opinion on the re-baptizing thing).

Here is one of the scriptures they use:
Revelation 2:5 Context

2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. 8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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#98
Also this scripture, and I guess most of the letter written to the Churches. But in this one they say that it means you have to hold on to the end to overcome and if you turn from God or leave him and don't repent then you will be blotted out of the book of life.

Revelation 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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#99
A bold-hearted person will be filled with his own ways, and a good man with his own thoughts.
Prov 14:14


I am using the ONLINE KJV BIBLE and it clearly states BACKSLIDER.

Not sure what your bible version is, but my claims to be the KJV.

And my DAKE's KJV also claims it is BACKSLIDER!!

So nice try, since the majority of the conversation discussions here are based from the KJV!!

It is BACKSLIDER!!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I am using the ONLINE KJV BIBLE and it clearly states BACKSLIDER.

Not sure what your bible version is, but my claims to be the KJV,

And my DAKE's KJV also claims it is BACKSLIDER!!

So nice try, since the majority of the conversation discussions here are based from the KJV!!

It is BACKSLIDER!!
I do not even know what to say in response to such illogical post... :cautious: