Question???

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pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#1
I read this in corrinthians and found it interesting.
The scripture where Paul is talking about where some followers were being baptized for the dead.
Was this a real practice, getting baptized for those that had already died by proxy?
Or did I miss read the scripture.:eek:
Also, if so? How or did this work scripturally?
Thanks and God bless,pickles:)
 

Ellie

Senior Member
Dec 14, 2009
225
7
18
#2
can I have the chapter and verse reference to what you were reading?
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
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#3
1 Cor 15: 29- 34. You've picked one of the most difficult passages of scripture I think, so there's no one correct answer. I think the best answer is that Paul was asking a rhetorical question..to bolster his argument for the resurrection, "if the dead do not rise, why are they being baptized for the dead?"

PNT says:

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead? Paul again returns to the argument for the resurrection. This passage is difficult, and has received almost as many interpretations as there have been commentators. Some have held that there was a custom of baptizing living persons for the benefit of persons who had died without baptism. Had that custom existed, Paul would have rebuked it. It did arise afterwards, as an abuse from the misinterpretation of this passage, among the followers of Cerinthus, and, in our times, of Joseph Smith. I will try to make clear its meaning: (1) All the Corinthians were baptized (Act_18:8). (2) Their baptism was a "planting" in the likeness of the burial of Christ, and in the "likeness of his resurrection" (Rom_6:4-5). They were in, and raised from, a watery tomb. (3) Their baptism in the likeness of the death and resurrection of Christ was in hope of their own resurrection from the dead through Christ's resurrection. (Huper Nekroon, for, or on account of the dead, with the exception of resurrection from the dead.) But if Christ has not risen, and the dead rise not, this memorial and emblematic burial has no meaning. "Why, then, are they baptized for the dead?" that is, for the sake of their own resurrection from the dead. This interpretation harmonizes better with Paul's argument than any I have seen.
 
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G

greatkraw

Guest
#4
paul was just constructing an arguement but the Mormons have taken this ball and run with it

it is one of the 2 reasons why they are at the forefront of tracing genealogies
 
S

SeekinHIM

Guest
#5
Dear Pickles,

Something to consider here, when you read these passages from the beginning of chapter 15, you'll get the big picture, the Apostle Paul is teaching the Corinthians the ORDER OF GOD.............In other words, GOD DOES EVERYTHING VERY ORDERLY...........JUST CONSIDER SUMMER, FALL, WINTER, SPRING, AND IT STARTS OVER AGAIN.......Consider the Heavens, the Stars...........everything is very orderly........this group was not understanding the function and purposes of GOD in the Ressurrection.........Paul discusses this order just above the Scripture in question......

Here's the key to this understanding.............There has alway been arguments right from the beginning in the Gospels about the raising of the dead.....

Many of those that were right there when JESUS was teaching them about it, didn't believe......Read the text from chapter 15 vs.1 and then you'll see Paul is trying to clear up this disbelief, and also the false notion that you could be baptized for the dead..........It's kind of like purgatory........There is no such place.......

When you get to verse- 20 in chap. 15 this is where Paul begins to straighten out their false perceptions.......read it slowly, it will make sense....

SeekinHIM
 
Feb 3, 2010
1,238
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#6
I agree that Paul is asking a rhetorical question - he does it throughout his letters. What is the most interesting thing to me is that people only suggest that he is speaking rhetorically when a verse is totally outrageous if it is interpreted any other way.

Paul is also being rhetorical when he suggests that we should boast about the Lord, but people take it literally.
 
Dec 21, 2009
538
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#7
I read this in corrinthians and found it interesting.
The scripture where Paul is talking about where some followers were being baptized for the dead.
Was this a real practice, getting baptized for those that had already died by proxy?
Or did I miss read the scripture.:eek:
Also, if so? How or did this work scripturally?
Thanks and God bless,pickles:)

JOHN THE BAPTIST CAME TO BAPTIZE US IN WATER
JESUS CAME TO BAPTIZE US IN SALVATION TO RECIEVE THE HOLY GHOST
WITH THE EXCEPTION TO THE THIEF ON THE CROSS WITH JESUS
THE NEW GOSPEL ERUPTED WITH BAPTISM IN BOTH WATER AND SPIRIT
I FEEL PAUL'S REFERENCE IS DUE TO THOSE
WHO NOW THEN BELIEVED THAT JESUS WAS GOD IN FLESH
WAS BOTH BAPTIZED IN WATER AND PREACHED BAPTISM IN THE SPIRIT
WERE THEMSELVES GETTING BAPTIZED FOR THOSE DEAD
WHO DIDNT GET BAPTIZED BY EITHER
THINKING IN SOME WAYS THEY WERE SAVING THEM UNTO THE NEW LAW
OBVIOUSLY
THOSE DEAD BEFORE WERE SAVED ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES
BUT
IT IS POSSIBLE LIKE TODAY
WE HAVE MANY WHO JUST NEVER GET IT AND COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
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#8
hello,

We cannot be baptized for the dead for everybody has to make themselves right before God to have salvation while they are on this earth.If a person did not do right on this earth when they died a person that is still alive cannot do anything to save that person.
The Bible says for it is appointed unto man once to die then comes the judgment.That means as soon as a person dies judgment is immediate whether heaven or hell.If they made it to heaven that is good.If they did not make it to heaven a person that is alive on earth cannot do anything to save him.Everybody is accountable for their own actions.
Paul was against people being baptized for the dead.

Matt
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
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#9
joint-heir, do you believe a person must be baptised to be saved?
 
Dec 21, 2009
538
1
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#10
joint-heir, do you believe a person must be baptised to be saved?

I DON'T BELIEVE THEY WILL GO TO HELL IF THEY DON'T
BUT
I DO BELIEVE
KNOWING THAT JESUS WAS BAPTIZED
IF YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE BAPTIZED
BUT REFUSE
YES, YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN FOR DIS-OBEDIENCE TO BE EXACTLY LIKE CHRIST
AND NOT FOLLOWING HIS EXAMPLE IN EVERYTHING
BUT
I ASK THIS
WHY ACCEPT JESUS AND LIVE FOR GOD
IF YOUR NOT GOING TO FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLES...?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#11
1 Cor 15: 29- 34. You've picked one of the most difficult passages of scripture I think, so there's no one correct answer. I think the best answer is that Paul was asking a rhetorical question..to bolster his argument for the resurrection, "if the dead do not rise, why are they being baptized for the dead?"

PNT says:

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead? Paul again returns to the argument for the resurrection. This passage is difficult, and has received almost as many interpretations as there have been commentators. Some have held that there was a custom of baptizing living persons for the benefit of persons who had died without baptism. Had that custom existed, Paul would have rebuked it. It did arise afterwards, as an abuse from the misinterpretation of this passage, among the followers of Cerinthus, and, in our times, of Joseph Smith. I will try to make clear its meaning: (1) All the Corinthians were baptized (Act_18:8). (2) Their baptism was a "planting" in the likeness of the burial of Christ, and in the "likeness of his resurrection" (Rom_6:4-5). They were in, and raised from, a watery tomb. (3) Their baptism in the likeness of the death and resurrection of Christ was in hope of their own resurrection from the dead through Christ's resurrection. (Huper Nekroon, for, or on account of the dead, with the exception of resurrection from the dead.) But if Christ has not risen, and the dead rise not, this memorial and emblematic burial has no meaning. "Why, then, are they baptized for the dead?" that is, for the sake of their own resurrection from the dead. This interpretation harmonizes better with Paul's argument than any I have seen.
Thankyou Mahogony,I had seen it many times before and when I came across it again in corrinthians I thought it was very curious and would be an interesting topic.
It showed just as you said, how some will take an act of faith and try to apply it in ways that are not what they were intended for. Alot like praying for the souls of the dead.
It was such a small mention in all of the books that I wondered what the opinions of others might be.
Its funny how people are pretty much the same, then and now. Thinking we can fix something that is already done.
Thankyou for your reply.
God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#12
paul was just constructing an arguement but the Mormons have taken this ball and run with it

it is one of the 2 reasons why they are at the forefront of tracing genealogies
How have the mormons applied this?
I have not done much in study of the faith, had no need. Just curious how it is applied here.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles
 
Feb 3, 2010
1,238
3
0
#13
It showed just as you said, how some will take an act of faith and try to apply it in ways that are not what they were intended for. Alot like praying for the souls of the dead.
I think it is more like developing an entire escatological doctrine around 1 Thessalonians 4:17:

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#14
Dear Pickles,

Something to consider here, when you read these passages from the beginning of chapter 15, you'll get the big picture, the Apostle Paul is teaching the Corinthians the ORDER OF GOD.............In other words, GOD DOES EVERYTHING VERY ORDERLY...........JUST CONSIDER SUMMER, FALL, WINTER, SPRING, AND IT STARTS OVER AGAIN.......Consider the Heavens, the Stars...........everything is very orderly........this group was not understanding the function and purposes of GOD in the Ressurrection.........Paul discusses this order just above the Scripture in question......

Here's the key to this understanding.............There has alway been arguments right from the beginning in the Gospels about the raising of the dead.....

Many of those that were right there when JESUS was teaching them about it, didn't believe......Read the text from chapter 15 vs.1 and then you'll see Paul is trying to clear up this disbelief, and also the false notion that you could be baptized for the dead..........It's kind of like purgatory........There is no such place.......

When you get to verse- 20 in chap. 15 this is where Paul begins to straighten out their false perceptions.......read it slowly, it will make sense....

SeekinHIM
I want to say this in as kind of way as possible.
Your reply is the very example of what I was trying to share with you on judgement.
You assumed that I did not understand or read all of the scripture in corrinthians.
My question was to see and know the interpitations of others. I often ask simply for confermation and clarification.
Yes, I have read this many times over the years and believed that this had been done in ,some thinking that they could somehow help the dead.
Of course there are many interpitations of all scriptures and all is understood through the Holy Spirit.
I understand your desire to help and teach what Our Lord Jesus has revieled to you.
I want this also for many.
But It is always important to remember that ones understanding is only as good, as that which is the work Of OurLord God.
Never our own.
I say this because I have been humbled on this myself.
Always in the Love of Jesus.
Smiles and God bless, pickles
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#15
There were some who were going around and preaching that there was no resurrection. There were others who were going around and preaching that the resurrection had already come. And Paul was refuting both of these. First, not all of the enemies had been made a footstool under Jesus' feet. And then, (this was a local practice, not a Christian practice,) there were some who were being baptized for those who were already dead. (Paul was not saying that we should do this.) If there was not a resurrection, then why would these be baptized for the dead? Paul is making an argument.

His blessing sister,
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#16
Thankyou all for your answers. It helped to conferm and clarify.
Its interesting to see that people then, are very much like ourselves today.
smiles and God bless, pickles
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#17
Great question Pickles, thanks for asking so the rest of us could get a clear-up too!
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#18
How have the mormons applied this?
I have not done much in study of the faith, had no need. Just curious how it is applied here.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles
they go in for being baptised for the dead in a big way

if you become a mormon they will help you trace as many ancestors as possible and have you baptised retrospectively for each one

in fact in the millenium christ will make known everyones ancestors so they can all be retrospectively baptised for and hence saved

I HAVE THIS FORM A MORMON ELDER
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#19
So...I could be a serial killing pedophile rapist and a thief and on my deathbed tell my kid to go get baptized for me real quick, and I'd be good to go?
 
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#20
In essence...Paul is saying, 'What's the POINT of doing this ritual when it benefits no one?' He is showing them the futility of their repetitive and spiritually dead actions.

Maggie