Questions for Premillenerians

[Strangelove]

Questions for Premillers:

Matthew 25:31, 46; Revelation 20:11-15: Jesus said, "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious [Great White] throne. ALL THE NATIONS will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put THE SHEEP on His right, and THE GOATS on the left...[Then after the Judgment, the unrighteous] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Who will be present at the Great White Throne Judgment?


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John 5:28-29: "For AN HOUR [singular] is coming, in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; THOSE WHO DID THE GOOD DEEDS [the saints] to a resurrection of life, THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS [the unsaved] to a resurrection of judgment." Who will be resurrected at the same hour?


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John 6:39-40: Jesus said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up ON THE LAST DAY. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." When will the believers be raised up?


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John 6:44: Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." When will the saved be raised up?


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John 11:24: "Martha said to Him [Jesus], I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection ON THE LAST DAY." When will the resurrection of the saints be?


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John 12:48: Jesus said, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him AT THE LAST DAY." When will the Judgment of the unsaved be?


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Acts 24:15: "There shall certainly be A RESURRECTION [singular] OF BOTH the righteous and the wicked [together]." When will the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked be?


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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: Paul said, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain until the coming of the Lord, WILL NOT PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and WITH THE [last] TRUMPET of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." What instrument will be sounded when the rapture and the resurrection of the saints occurs?


​

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: Paul said, "...With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [the rapture]...Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [Antichrist] IS REVEALED, the son of destruction." What must come before the rapture? Will Christ return at any moment before these events?


​

1 Corinthians 15:51-52: Paul said, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we [Christians] WILL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we will all be changed [at the rapture], in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we will ALL be changed." When will the saints, alive and dead, be changed in the twinkling of an eye?


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Revelation 10:7: "In the days when the SEVENTH ANGEL IS ABOUT TO SOUND HIS TRUMPET [the seventh and last], the mystery of God [mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:51] will be accomplished" On which day will the last trumpet sound and the rapture and resurrection occur?


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Revelation 11:15-18: "THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED HIS TRUMPET [the last one]...The nations were angry; and your [God’s] wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints...and for destroying those who destroy the earth." At which trumpet sound and on which day will the Judgment of God and the rewarding of the saints be?


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CREDIT: THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX
​

 

[zone]

hehehe.
subscribing

 

[Strangelove]

**birds tweeting**

 

[shroom2]

First, if you are not a believer in dispensationalism, you will blow all this all off as shenanigans.

Questions for Premillers:

Matthew 25:31, 46; Revelation 20:11-15: Jesus said, "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious [Great White] throne. ALL THE NATIONS will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put THE SHEEP on His right, and THE GOATS on the left...[Then after the Judgment, the unrighteous] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Who will be present at the Great White Throne Judgment? ​

All OT people who were not in the first resurrection, people who were not Christian in this dispensation of grace, unbelievers who died during the trib, and people born during the millennial kingdom (after the trib). Christians will be judged after the rapture, OT believers and believers during the trib will be judged at the first resurrection (of the just).

John 5:28-29: "For AN HOUR [singular] is coming, in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; THOSE WHO DID THE GOOD DEEDS [the saints] to a resurrection of life, THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS [the unsaved] to a resurrection of judgment." Who will be resurrected at the same hour?

You misinterpret "an hour" in that verse, and therefore phrase an improper question. Here is the KJV:
28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"hora" can also be "time", or "season". It is speaking about the end times, not one specific hour. It does not say both resurrections will occur at the same time. Revelation says they will be separated by 1000 years (rev 20:4-6)

John 6:39-40: Jesus said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up ON THE LAST DAY. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." When will the believers be raised up?

OT believers will be raised at the first resurrection, at the end of the trib. Again, you try and make "at [kjv] the last day" one specific hour. It refers to the end times, which will consist of several events.

John 6:44: Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." When will the saved be raised up?

Same thing as above. Plus, the dispensation of grace (Christianity) had not started yet. The mystery was still "hid in God". Christians, people born again of holy spirit, did not exist when Christ spoke those words.

John 11:24: "Martha said to Him [Jesus], I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection ON THE LAST DAY." When will the resurrection of the saints be?

Again, the same thing as before. Martha is simply talking about the end times, and knew there will be a resurrection and Lazarus will participate. And Lazarus was not a "saint", at least not yet. Again, the questions you ask are not relevant to the verses you quote. The resurrection of the saints (Christians) will happen at the rapture (1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4).

John 12:48: Jesus said, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him AT THE LAST DAY." When will the Judgment of the unsaved be?

The unsaved (all unbelievers) will be judged at the white throne judgement. Most believers will have already been judged. The believers who will be judged at the white throne judgment will be those who live during the millennial kingdom (and were not already judged at the first resurrection).

Acts 24:15: "There shall certainly be A RESURRECTION [singular] OF BOTH the righteous and the wicked [together]." When will the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked be?

KJV
15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Both the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected. This verse can be interpreted that it will be only one resurrection, but the bible plainly states in other places (referenced above) that there will be two resurrections.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: Paul said, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain until the coming of the Lord, WILL NOT PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and WITH THE [last] TRUMPET of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." What instrument will be sounded when the rapture and the resurrection of the saints occurs?

A trumpet.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: Paul said, "...With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [the rapture]...Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [Antichrist] IS REVEALED, the son of destruction." What must come before the rapture? Will Christ return at any moment before these events?

Please see here, items 14 - 16
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together

1 Corinthians 15:51-52: Paul said, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we [Christians] WILL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we will all be changed [at the rapture], in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we will ALL be changed." When will the saints, alive and dead, be changed in the twinkling of an eye?

At the last blast of the trumpet that will sound when Christ returns for the church. Although you want to make them the same, this is a different trumpet than the seven trumpets spoken of in Revelation.

Revelation 10:7: "In the days when the SEVENTH ANGEL IS ABOUT TO SOUND HIS TRUMPET [the seventh and last], the mystery of God [mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:51] will be accomplished" On which day will the last trumpet sound and the rapture and resurrection occur?

The mystery in Rev 10:7 is not the same as 1 Cor 15:51. The mystery in 1 Cor refers to the newly revealed truth about the rapture. Revelation is not written concerning Christians. It is events that will commence after the church is gathered together.

Revelation 11:15-18: "THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED HIS TRUMPET [the last one]...The nations were angry; and your [God’s] wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints...and for destroying those who destroy the earth." At which trumpet sound and on which day will the Judgment of God and the rewarding of the saints be?

After the seventh trumpet (in Rev, which is different from the trumpet mentioned in 1 Cor 15). And the saints (holy ones) mentioned here are not Christians because they will have already been gathered together prior to Revelation even starting.
​

The verses presented in this quiz, especially with the interpretations in brackets which often are incorrect, and then the leading questions were obviously assembled by someone who has already "determined" that there is no pretrib rapture.

Again, for a counterpoint to strangelove's little quiz, please read here:
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together

Here is a chart showing the various administrations in scripture:
http://www.truthortradition.com/endnotes/purposeoftheages.pdf

Again, if you are not a believer in dispensationalism (different administrations in scripture), or if you do not understand the mystery, you will dismiss all this as misinformation, heresy, deceit, or whatever. Do as you see fit.

...but I wanted to respond.

 

[Strangelove]

First, if you are not a believer in dispensationalism, you will blow all this all off as shenanigans.

Is there even any point in me reading it then?

Your saying your post is ONLY going to make sense to people who already have a presuppostion in support of the doctrine your defending?

LOLZ!

 

[zone]

First, if you are not a believer in dispensationalism, you will blow all this all off as shenanigans.

All OT people who were not in the first resurrection, people who were not Christian in this dispensation of grace, unbelievers who died during the trib, and people born during the millennial kingdom (after the trib). Christians will be judged after the rapture, OT believers and believers during the trib will be judged at the first resurrection (of the just).​

You misinterpret "an hour" in that verse, and therefore phrase an improper question. Here is the KJV:
28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"hora" can also be "time", or "season". It is speaking about the end times, not one specific hour. It does not say both resurrections will occur at the same time. Revelation says they will be separated by 1000 years (rev 20:4-6)​

OT believers will be raised at the first resurrection, at the end of the trib. Again, you try and make "at [kjv] the last day" one specific hour. It refers to the end times, which will consist of several events.​

Same thing as above. Plus, the dispensation of grace (Christianity) had not started yet. The mystery was still "hid in God". Christians, people born again of holy spirit, did not exist when Christ spoke those words.​

Again, the same thing as before. Martha is simply talking about the end times, and knew there will be a resurrection and Lazarus will participate. And Lazarus was not a "saint", at least not yet. Again, the questions you ask are not relevant to the verses you quote. The resurrection of the saints (Christians) will happen at the rapture (1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4).​

The unsaved (all unbelievers) will be judged at the white throne judgement. Most believers will have already been judged. The believers who will be judged at the white throne judgment will be those who live during the millennial kingdom (and were not already judged at the first resurrection).​

KJV
15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Both the righteous and unrighteous will be resurrected. This verse can be interpreted that it will be only one resurrection, but the bible plainly states in other places (referenced above) that there will be two resurrections.​

A trumpet.​

Please see here, items 14 - 16
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together​

At the last blast of the trumpet that will sound when Christ returns for the church. Although you want to make them the same, this is a different trumpet than the seven trumpets spoken of in Revelation.​

The mystery in Rev 10:7 is not the same as 1 Cor 15:51. The mystery in 1 Cor refers to the newly revealed truth about the rapture. Revelation is not written concerning Christians. It is events that will commence after the church is gathered together.​

After the seventh trumpet (in Rev, which is different from the trumpet mentioned in 1 Cor 15). And the saints (holy ones) mentioned here are not Christians because they will have already been gathered together prior to Revelation even starting.​

The verses presented in this quiz, especially with the interpretations in brackets which often are incorrect, and then the leading questions were obviously assembled by someone who has already "determined" that there is no pretrib rapture.

Again, for a counterpoint to strangelove's little quiz, please read here:
Truth Or Tradition - Biblical reasons verses for pre-tribulation rapture Christian gathering together

Here is a chart showing the various administrations in scripture:
http://www.truthortradition.com/endnotes/purposeoftheages.pdf

Again, if you are not a believer in dispensationalism (different administrations in scripture), or if you do not understand the mystery, you will dismiss all this as misinformation, heresy, deceit, or whatever. Do as you see fit.

...but I wanted to respond.

BUD
FIND OUT WHAT THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS.
let's start there.

no made up explanations.

find the passage in Rev 20.

then we can talk.

 

[shroom2]

BUD
FIND OUT WHAT THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS.
let's start there.

no made up explanations.

find the passage in Rev 20.

then we can talk.

Hi zone, welcome back.

I mentioned the first resurrection above, in Rev 20: Here are the verses:
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection will occur at the end of the trib. Note that among the participants will be those who did not worship the beast. The beast shows up in the trib.

The second resurrection (of the unjust) will occur at the end of the thousand years.

 

[Strangelove]

All OT people who were not in the first resurrection, people who were not Christian in this dispensation of grace, unbelievers who died during the trib, and people born during the millennial kingdom (after the trib). Christians will be judged after the rapture, OT believers and believers during the trib will be judged at the first resurrection (of the just).

Dunno what to say to this. It's just a mess and clearly personal opinion.

The simple answer FROM CLEAR SCRIPTURE is...the sheep and the goats will be present at the WTJ.

You misinterpret "an hour" in that verse, and therefore phrase an improper question. Here is the KJV:
28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"hora" can also be "time", or "season". It is speaking about the end times, not one specific hour. It does not say both resurrections will occur at the same time. Revelation says they will be separated by 1000 years (rev 20:4-6)

Honestly Shroom....can a season be a thousand years?

 

[Fencepost]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That no man can go to the father except through him. I believe that every single child, woman, and man will have to give an account of themselves to God for all they have done, not done, seen, heard, not seen, not heard. Known and unknown. That on the last day all the books will be open and every-man according do his deeds rather good or evil. I believe that Lord Jesus has a book of life that He opens and some he bloats out some he writes in. I belive Christ Alone is my salvation, my hope, my prayer, and my reward.

Please tell me what would I be classified as?

 

[Strangelove]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That no man can go to the father except through him. I believe that every single child, woman, and man will have to give an account of themselves to God for all they have done, not done, seen, heard, not seen, not heard. Known and unknown. That on the last day all the books will be open and every-man according do his deeds rather good or evil. I believe that Lord Jesus has a book of life that He opens and some he bloats out some he writes in. I belive Christ Alone is my salvation, my hope, my prayer, and my reward.

Please tell me what would I be classified as?

It depends how you define The Last Day. Is it a day...or is it a thousand years?

 

[Fencepost]

It depends how you define The Last Day. Is it a day...or is it a thousand years?

Hmm not sure, the thousand year reign is for those that Jesus brings out of the 7 year tribulation right? I guess the last day is just that the very last day before a new heaven and a new earth appear?

 

[Strangelove]

Hmm not sure, the thousand year reign is for those that Jesus brings out of the 7 year tribulation right? I guess the last day is just that the very last day before a new heaven and a new earth appear?

What if...?

What....if.....the "thousand years" mentioned ONLY in Revelation is in fact a metaphorical period of time?

I mean....in a book chok full of metaphors and symbolism?

What if....there is no 7 year tribulation,,,,coz the book of Daniel is completely fulfilled?

 

[Fencepost]

What if...?

What....if.....the "thousand years" mentioned ONLY in Revelation is in fact a metaphorical period of time?

I mean....in a book chok full of metaphors and symbolism?

What if....there is no 7 year tribulation,,,,coz the book of Daniel is completely fulfilled?

Hmm, I guess I am one who tries to hold to a literal interpitation. Does that mean i am a interptologist?

 

[Strangelove]

Hmm, I guess I am one who tries to hold to a literal interpitation. Does that mean i am a interptologist?

Nah it makes you a Proffessor of Literalism.

Are we gonna have literal headless souls running around this literal thousand year earthly kingdom?

 

[BlueLagoon]

What if...?

What....if.....the "thousand years" mentioned ONLY in Revelation is in fact a metaphorical period of time?

I mean....in a book chok full of metaphors and symbolism?

What if....there is no 7 year tribulation,,,,coz the book of Daniel is completely fulfilled?

Matthew 24
Verses 15-22 link the abomination of desolation to the time of the Great Trib. which is to occur when "those days will be shortened for the elects sake" , hence the AOD has not happened yet which completely crumbles your "Daniel is completely fulfilled" theory to smithereens. Be careful about altering Jesus' own words. You cannot deny that this is exactly what you are doing. The abomination mentioned here HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

 

[Fencepost]

Nah it makes you a Proffessor of Literalism.

Are we gonna have literal headless souls running around this literal thousand year earthly kingdom?

Heh prolly so.

 

[Strangelove]

Matthew 24
Verses 15-22 link the abomination of desolation to the time of the Great Trib. which is to occur when "those days will be shortened for the elects sake" , hence the AOD has not happened yet which completely crumbles your "Daniel is completely fulfilled" theory to smithereens. Be careful about altering Jesus' own words. You cannot deny that this is exactly what you are doing. The abomination mentioned here HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

70AD.

Destruction of Jerusalem.

Romans entered the temple and performed pagan rites in it including sacrifices.

Fulfilled.

 

[Strangelove]

Heh prolly so.

I read a little bit of your short stories bud. Coooool.

So are we looking out for a Krakken like monster to rise out of the deep? The beast?

 

[BlueLagoon]

70AD.

Destruction of Jerusalem.

Romans entered the temple and performed pagan rites in it including sacrifices.

Fulfilled.

Not fulfilled...lol...have you ever read Matthew 24? I guess not. Read it out loud, nice and slow...and observe the fact that my above post is 100% correct and there is nothing you can change, no matter how desparately you want to squeeze your theory into historical events that only forshadow the abomination still to come. NOT FULFILLED.

 

[Strangelove]

Not fulfilled...lol...have you ever read Matthew 24? I guess not. Read it out loud, nice and slow...and observe the fact that my above post is 100% correct and there is nothing you can change, no matter how desparately you want to squeeze your theory into historical events that only forshadow the abomination still to come. NOT FULFILLED.

You didnt address anything in my post.

You just got condescending.

Waddup?

Why cant it be 70AD?

It's the view of orthodox Christian scholarship for 2000 years.

(Matthew 24:2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

BARNES

There shall not be left here one stone upon another - At the time this was spoken, no event was more improbable than this. The temple was vast, rich, splendid. It was the pride of the nation, and the nation was at peace. Yet in the short space of 40 years all this was accomplished exactly. Jerusalem was taken by the Roman armies, under the command of Titus, 70 a.d. The account of the siege and destruction of the city is left us by Josephus, a historian of undoubted veracity and singular fidelity. He was a Jewish priest. In the wars of which he gives an account, he fell into the hands of the Romans, and remained with them during the siege and destruction of the city. Being a Jew, he would of course say nothing designed to confirm the prophecies of Jesus Christ; yet his whole history appears almost like a running commentary on these predictions respecting the destruction of the temple.