Rapture? Help Me PLEASE!

[phil36]

Personally, I cannot see any clear Scriptural evidence of a pre or mid rapture.

I know that Darby was a huge mover of this doctrine (brethren). and this has taken root from England to the states and especially through 'dispensationalists'.

Personally, I do not see Revelation as a step by step progression, rather a view from heaven of the struggle with evil and how it has been defeated and will be defeated.

We postulate on how this or that may take place or what is the symbol. Yet one thing we forget is that, it would have been very plain to the original hearer, a true comfort of evils defeat and that God is in control. wonderfully comforting.

Phil

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Personally, I cannot see any clear Scriptural evidence of a pre or mid rapture.

I know that Darby was a huge mover of this doctrine (brethren). and this has taken root from England to the states and especially through 'dispensationalists'.

Personally, I do not see Revelation as a step by step progression, rather a view from heaven of the struggle with evil and how it has been defeated and will be defeated.

We postulate on how this or that may take place or what is the symbol. Yet one thing we forget is that, it would have been very plain to the original hearer, a true comfort of evils defeat and that God is in control. wonderfully comforting.

Phil

I was forced to develop my eschatology on this subjectwhen my friends tried to rope me into the pretrib camp. I've seen the very best of pretrib apologetics and you're right, they cannot demonstrate through clearly stated Scripture that the rapture precedes the tribulation.

I tend to agree that the tribulation is a 7 year period although I don't believe the dispensationalist theory that it's Daniel's 70th week. Rather I believe that what happened in the Old Testament where the captivity of Babylon was cut short by the mercy of God, is exactly what happens during the tribulation whereby it's not allowed to run its full 7 year course. Jesus said it would be cut short "for the sake of the elect."

This is the PREWRATH rapture championed by Marvin Rosenthal that says this: our gathering to the Lord (rapture) happens during the Great Tribulation, the 2nd 2 1/2 year period as distinguished from the Tribulation. So let's say after the halfway point. It won't be at the end of the Great Tribulation because it is cut short for the sake of the elect. Because we are told no one knows the hour or the day, it must be at an undetermined time in the middle of the Great Tribulation. That's the prewrath position that I find most plausible.

 

[mpaper345]

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate(Daniel 9:24-27).

The 70th week has not happened yet,and the last week,7 years,will be the 7 year tribulation period to come in the future.

The Bible says the Jews have 70 weeks to get it right before God and understand that Jesus is their Messiah.

69 weeks have already passed,and you can see that the Jews still have not got right with God,so their is one more week to go.

During the tribulation period,God will send the Jews 2 witnesses to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is the Messiah(Revelation chapter 11),and the Jews during the last week,which is the 7 year tribulation to come,the Jews will get it right before God and recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The antichrist will confirm the covenant for one week,the 70th week,which will be during the tribulation period.

70 weeks is determined upon the Jews to get it right before God.

69 weeks have already passed leaving one week,7 years,left.

That one week,7 years,will be during the 7 year tribulation period to come,in which the Jews will then get it right before God.

That one week could of not happened yet,for the Jews are still not right before God as far as government,religion,and as a whole.

That one week could of not happened yet,for the antichrist will start the 7 year period by the signing of a covenant,which has not happened yet.

That 70th week,7 years,is the 7 year tribulation period to come in the future.

Matt

 

[mpaper345]

Jesus said that the days were shortened for the elect's sake,which means that the antichrist will only be allowed to rule for 3 and one half years.

It is not talking about the captivity of Israel being shortened when they were led captive to Babylon.

God said they would be there 70 years and that is how long they stayed there.

Matt

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Jesus said that the days were shortened for the elect's sake,which means that the antichrist will only be allowed to rule for 3 and one half years.

It is not talking about the captivity of Israel being shortened when they were led captive to Babylon.

God said they would be there 70 years and that is how long they stayed there.

Matt

I have some strong objections to that logic and the dispensationalists' exegetical method. Everything happens in precursors and fulfillments. Prophesy is a matter of forthright prognostication and precursor precident, or "birth pangs". Just as a woman going into labor begins to experience pain that waxes until birth, so cycles of events occur in intensities until the final fulfillment. This is why it seemed to Christians during World War II that they were experiencing the tribulation but in fact they were not.

It's no mistake that the Babylonian period of captivity was cut short. Daniel's 70th week did not happen nor will it ever happen. It is God's sovereign choice to shorten the duration of His sentence as demonstrated by the cutting short of the captivity period. It's also a mistake to argue that God is bound to follow through in the duration and/or intensity of His own judgement any more than a parent cannot, after grounding their children for 2 weeks, relent and release them after 1.5 weeks.

There is no precident to say that God, like an accountant, lopped off the 70th week to visit it upon another generation at a future date. In fact, in all examples of God's judgement, there is always an element of mercy, one that is not later rescinded. It's a fallacy of logic that because the Tribulation is believed to last 7 years, it must be the "missing" 7 years from the Babylonian captivity. For the sake of consistancy, dispensationalists would have to also argue that because there was no shortening of the Babylonian captivity, there must also be no shortening of the Great Tribulation.

The precursor is true. As God shortened the captivity of Babylon, so will he shorten the Great Tribulation for those he loves. It will not be at a calculated time such as after 3 1/2 years as Midtribbers think. It will be after the midpoint, but before the conclusion of the 7 year period.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Jesus said that the days were shortened for the elect's sake,which means that the antichrist will only be allowed to rule for 3 and one half years.

It is not talking about the captivity of Israel being shortened when they were led captive to Babylon.

God said they would be there 70 years and that is how long they stayed there.

Matt

You might want to read that account again. We're talking about 70 weeks, not 70 years. A week is not interpreted as 7 days but rather 7 years. So 70 x 7 or 490 years. Only the Jews were spared the last "week" so the sentence was not carried out to maturity.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

MPaper,

I re-read your post and I see that you do understand the meaning of "week" as 7 years. I didn't mean to insult you.

 

[androozer]

Seeing that the word "rapture" is not present in scripture I don't see it as an overly beneficial tool to wrestling with the end times. What is important about this conversation is that you cling to the truth's which are made clear in scripture and realize that many others, which have been mentioned in this thread are merely interpretations at best and personal creations at worse. What we do know about the end of the age is that God will defeat sin and death once and for all. And that the "saints" living and dead will be resurrected to live in the newly restored earth. A significant problem that often comes with the idea of the rapture is that in the end our souls will escape to be with the Lord and all the "Evil" physical world will be destroyed. It is a philosophy of escapism. This is an idea which was deemed as heresy by the early church called gnosticism. Cling to hope of Christ's return and our future resurrection and let the rest be what it is. An interesting debate.

 

[MahogonySnail]

It's a fallacy of logic that because the Tribulation is believed to last 7 years

It's a fallacy of logic to believe that the Tribulation will last exactly 7 years.

No one who understands biblical prophesy assigns an exact literal meaning to what is obviously a very symbolic round number.

 

[stillearning]

Is there going to be a rapture or do we need to be present for the final times?

I read nothing about a rapture, yet so many people i know believe in it?
I've heard pastors say that believe in it & Other pastors say it's not so..What proof do we as christians have that we will not be here for the final events?

PLEASE help me! This question bothers my mind sometimes. I am content either way with whatever happens but when i try to explain the endtimes to people i feel lost.. Because i am not 100% sure.. I don't want to mislead someone..

ThaNK you for taking time to help me out! God bless.

Proverbs 10:30 says
"The righteous shall (((((never))))) be removed:
but the wicked shall (((not))) inhabit the earth."
Why would the Lord tell us "Do not Fear the desolation of the wicked when it comes" if we were not going to be here when it comes? The Lord says He shall keep you from being taken.
(Proverbs 3:25-26 KJV) (25) Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. (26) For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken. //////// The wicked are going to be taken from among the just.
Psalm 37:7-11 (KJV) 7Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. ////////// Who gets severed (or taken) from among the just? The wicked. You will diligently consider the wicked man's place and it shall not be.
This is a doctrine of Christ Jesus said: Matthew 13:36-43 (KJV) 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; (= this age) and the reapers are the angels. (1st) 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2nd) 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The righteous shall see the wicked rooted out of the land of the living - Psalm 52:3-6 3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah. 4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue. 5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah. 6The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
No scripture has ever said his people will be taken off the earth for protection from tribulation The fullness of what Jesus prays always happens. Rev 3:10 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. ///////// John 17:15. "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil."

 

[BestBeWishing]

Beloved,
First off, the word "Rapture" is not in the Bible no-where, So as a Christain,

understand this, (This saying Rapture is the antichrist message when he come's)

"Come worship me I've come to fly you away" But instead he has come to decieve as

many as he can. This is why Jesus said (I will come as a thief in the night)

because so many will think they are allready with Jesus worshiping him, But it will be

Satan, The antichrist comes first on 666, Our Lord Jesus comes on 777. Satan comes

in healing the sick, maken the blind see again, maken the deaf hear again, maken folks

walk that has never walked. (Doing Good) Satan will look like Jesus, even scars on his

feet and hands where the nails where, snappping his fingers and maken fire come

from the clouds, "Super Powers like no one has ever seen"
( MANY WILL BE DECIEVED )


(lets look at where this doctrine comes from): 1 Thessalonians 4:17 , Then we which

are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the

Lord in the air;and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Satan turns this scripture and started this Rapture Doctrine. Satan uses Scripture to

decieve, and twist the word, come worship me I've come to fly you away.

(Dont be Decieved) Christains that think they will meet Jesus in the air in thier flesh

bodys need to read with understanding.

(now lets look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15) But I (thats Jesus talking) would not have

you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, ( asleep means those

that are all-ready dead, gone,) that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no

hope. ( Jesus is telling us not to cry over the dead we will see them again.)

4:14 For if we (that means Christains) believe that Jesus died and rose again ( This is

Jesus resurrection), even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him, ( we will see them again)

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, ( ok here it is from the Lord )

that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

So this is saying when Jesus comes on 777, we that are still alive, WILL BE KILLED AS THE ONES ALREADY GONE. and this is not a rapture,
(BUT A RESURRECTION.)

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of

the archangle, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

( So understand what he is saying, God will come down with a shout, a archangle will

sound the trumpet) Then those of us that have allready died will be rose first.)

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain ( on earth ) shall be caught up together with

them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the lord.

( here we go again sharpen up) on 777 when Jesus comes, we which are alive and

still on earth liven, shall be killed, and we will rise to meet them in the air.

and this will be a RESURRECTION NOT a rapture
　
(The Sixth Trumph) a trump sounds alarms in Heaven. " a total of seven" Rev 8:6
(The Sixth Seal) Seals is the Wisdom of our Father Warnings,"seven of them" Rev 6:1
(The Sixth Vial) Vial's are the cups of God's Wrath that God allows the Angels to dumpout on Sinful Nations.a total of seven Rev 16:1
The book of Revalation means to make known,to reveal to us, of the end time's,on 666 the antichrist comes
in Rev 16:15 Jesus says behold I come as a thief in the night. Why because so many will allready think there worshiping him"but it will be the antichrist"
Jesus Comes on 777 wait for him dont be decieved
Hope this helps!

 

[BestBeWishing]

Beloved,
First off, the word "Rapture" is not in the Bible no-where, So as a Christain,

understand this, (This saying Rapture is the antichrist message when he come's)

"Come worship me I've come to fly you away" But instead he has come to decieve as

many as he can. This is why Jesus said (I will come as a thief in the night)

because so many will think they are allready with Jesus worshiping him, But it will be

Satan, The antichrist comes first on 666, Our Lord Jesus comes on 777. Satan comes

in healing the sick, maken the blind see again, maken the deaf hear again, maken folks

walk that has never walked. (Doing Good) Satan will look like Jesus, even scars on his

feet and hands where the nails where, snappping his fingers and maken fire come

from the clouds, "Super Powers like no one has ever seen"
( MANY WILL BE DECIEVED )


(lets look at where this doctrine comes from): 1 Thessalonians 4:17 , Then we which

are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the

Lord in the air;and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Satan turns this scripture and started this Rapture Doctrine. Satan uses Scripture to

decieve, and twist the word, come worship me I've come to fly you away.

(Dont be Decieved) Christains that think they will meet Jesus in the air in thier flesh

bodys need to read with understanding.

(now lets look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15) But I (thats Jesus talking) would not have

you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, ( asleep means those

that are all-ready dead, gone,) that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no

hope. ( Jesus is telling us not to cry over the dead we will see them again.)

4:14 For if we (that means Christains) believe that Jesus died and rose again ( This is

Jesus resurrection), even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him, ( we will see them again)

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, ( ok here it is from the Lord )

that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

So this is saying when Jesus comes on 777, we that are still alive, WILL BE KILLED AS THE ONES ALREADY GONE. and this is not a rapture,
(BUT A RESURRECTION.)

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of

the archangle, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

( So understand what he is saying, God will come down with a shout, a archangle will

sound the trumpet) Then those of us that have allready died will be rose first.)

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain ( on earth ) shall be caught up together with

them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the lord.

( here we go again sharpen up) on 777 when Jesus comes, we which are alive and

still on earth liven, shall be killed, and we will rise to meet them in the air.

and this will be a RESURRECTION NOT a rapture
　
(The Sixth Trumph) a trump sounds alarms in Heaven. " a total of seven" Rev 8:6
(The Sixth Seal) Seals is the Wisdom of our Father Warnings,"seven of them" Rev 6:1
(The Sixth Vial) Vial's are the cups of God's Wrath that God allows the Angels to dumpout on Sinful Nations.a total of seven Rev 16:1
The book of Revalation means to make known,to reveal to us, of the end time's,on 666 the antichrist comes
in Rev 16:15 Jesus says behold I come as a thief in the night. Why because so many will allready think there worshiping him"but it will be the antichrist"
Jesus Comes on 777 wait for him dont be decieved
Hope this helps!

Ye must be Born Again! Flesh is Flesh, no Flesh and Blood shall see the Kingdom! we must be changed into our Spirital Bodys, When we as Christains died , we become a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN

 

[charisenexcelcis]

You don't know the meaning of the word "cult" except for the popular definition. It means to be of the same mind. It's the root word in "culture". So why don't you actually look up the word? Because when I say there is no negative connotation I mean just that.

And by the way, this will be my only warning. You will not again violate the Christian-chat rules by calling me "sad" which is a direct assault on my character or I will report you. You can say anything you want about what I post, but you may not make characterizations of my person. I'm sure we understand each other.

If you really believed this you would not have had to make your disclaimer. As for an assault on your character, I think that is a bit overstated. It is strange that you would not consider the use of the word cult, with all of it's connotation as an assault on the character of many in this site, but you take offense that I say that you are sad by using this methodology. Report me if you wish, but make sure that you shine that light of scrutiny on yourself.

 

[loveschild]

I've seen enough of your posts to seize upon the general trend. While others including myself use Scripture and other imperical evidence to erect and defend an argument, (O the day when a Catholic uses Scripture more than a Protestant!) you seem fond of generalizations, vituperatives, and speculating on the eternal fate of anyone who disagrees with you. It is my fervent and abiding desire that you prove me wrong.

The bible is clear Gods people will be lifted up into the cloud with Jesus. While the fools will remain here on earth. As I said before I pray you all repent before you find out the hard way. God have mercy on you souls!

 

[loveschild]

Look in the dictionary for rapture. Its under R.

 

[miktre]

The bible is clear Gods people will be lifted up into the cloud with Jesus. While the fools will remain here on earth. As I said before I pray you all repent before you find out the hard way. God have mercy on you souls!

Thats not what our Lord Christ taught. Should we listen to Christ or you?
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


The foolish who listen to doctrines of men will be gathered first

 

[HolyTriX]

I do not believe in a Rapture.

Watch these Videos & you will Understand:
YouTube - Amazing Facts:What about the "Rapture" pt1
YouTube - Amazing Facts:What about the "Rapture" pt2
YouTube - Amazing Facts:What about the "Rapture" pt3

Don't be decieved by this Rapture teaching. If i am wrong i will apologies in Heaven, but if you're wrong...

 

[MahogonySnail]

I don't think there is a rapture either. And if there is, it will be mid or post-tribulation.

 

[androozer]

Matthew 24 does paint a picture of a rapture in sorts where God is taking people away. But, I for one don't want to be taken in that rapture.

 

[loveschild]

Speaking the truth sure makes the antichrist mad. Keep up the good work Christains! The Lord rebuke the antichrist. I pray you repent. The Lord loves each one of you and he is calling you.