rapture pre or post tribulation

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Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#81
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#81
peterT said:
That whole statement had a slight smell of mudslinging to it

I tried to read it with different tones, in different contexts, different ways of expressions, 3 and 4 times I read it a different way

And it still had a slight smell of mudslinging to it.
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Sorry you took it that way, I'm sure it would have sounded different IRL. LOL... Dear brother, I was only trying to state the fact (what I perceive as fact) that I am incapable to reason with you, for I can't articulate my views in a manner to help you think objectively because it seems to me that you are inseparable from your positions. I based that on what I perceive as fact, that I real don't get answers from you that meet my satisfaction.

Btw, I don't understand how you can separate preaching and interpretation, unless you thinking of method. If that was the case, we were never talking about preaching. Therefore when you said "thinking out of the box", naturally I equated that with interpretation.
 
JGPS

JGPS

Banned
#82
Jan 11, 2013
629
0
0
#82
Blain said:
The word Rapture is a man made word for the even i posted in scripture. You will not find the word rapture in the bible, but the the ones who understand what the scripture is saying knows what it's talking about. There also another scripture of this exact same event somewhere in revelations
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As I said repeatedly in this thread you will find it in the bible... It is in 1 Thessalonians in the Vulgate.

Weather that event has anything to do with other events in Matthew or Revelation means little to me.
 
M

matt7777777

Banned
#83
Mar 29, 2013
353
4
0
#83
I must say this thread got more attention than i thought but im glad i think it is good for us to discuss the things of the lord weather we agree on them or not we are still fellowshipin with other christians an all of us probaly have learned something from someone on here know i did... keep it up guys an remeber. He Is Risen!!!
 
JGPS

JGPS

Banned
#84
Jan 11, 2013
629
0
0
#84
matt7777777 said:
I must say this thread got more attention than i thought but im glad i think it is good for us to discuss the things of the lord weather we agree on them or not we are still fellowshipin with other christians an all of us probaly have learned something from someone on here know i did... keep it up guys an remeber. He Is Risen!!!
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Post anything related to eschatology for free attention :)
 
M

matt7777777

Banned
#85
Mar 29, 2013
353
4
0
#85
I must admit ive never heard that term what does it mean exactly?
 
B

Bookreader

Banned
#86
Jan 10, 2013
318
4
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#86
Actually when visions are involved the literal translation is more often than not the incorrect one - with regard to events or timing. That is why, on occasion God has also let the prophet know the meaning. Because it was important to know at the time.
John's vision does not come decoded like that.

If your method of hermeneutics involves deciding that some bits of a vision are allegories and others are timings or literal events then it's not exegesis. From a vision as extreme as John's in Revelation (or Ezekiel's or Daniel's) one has to be careful not to decide without grounding what is solid and real and what is allegorical or symbolic.

It is important to note the most important things about Revelation and that is the messages to the churches.
Then we can wonder at what John saw and try to understand parts of it.
Those who claim to know what it means for sure are, for sure, not to be listened to with any surety :)


Bookends said:
That's not my method of hermeneutics and sense "thinking outside the box" it is yours, there can be no rational discussion that involves interpreting scripture with scripture and obvious clear understanding of context and cultural impact on what as clearly been written.

Thinking outside the box may be go to do in a worldly circumstance, in business, etc. but not for receiving revelation from the Word.

Besides, I don't think you'd ever change you mind or seriously think over my view. Why? because you don't directly answer my questions.
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P

peterT

Guest
#89
#89
Blain said:
The word Rapture is a man made word for the even i posted in scripture. You will not find the word rapture in the bible, but the the ones who understand what the scripture is saying knows what it's talking about. There also another scripture of this exact same event somewhere in revelations
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Is this the scripture you are thinking about in revelation blain ?

Rv11;11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
C

CDavid

Guest
#90
#90
The problem that I see, with teaching this false doctrine to new believers, is that when the rapture does not happen, how many of these new believers will completely lose faith all together. Why should they believe any of the promises, if this rapture that they refer to as their "blessed hope" turns out to be a myth.
[h=3]2 Thessalonians 2:1-4[/h]
Now, brethren, [SUB]a[/SUB] concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ [SUB]b[/SUB] and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2[/SUP] [SUB]c[/SUB] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [SUB]1[/SUB] Christ had come. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come [SUB]d[/SUB] unless the falling away comes first, and [SUB]e[/SUB] the man of [SUB]2[/SUB] sin is revealed, [SUB]f[/SUB] the son of perdition, [SUP]4[/SUP] who opposes and [SUB]g[/SUB] exalts himself [SUB]h[/SUB] above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [SUB]3[/SUB] as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Paul clearly says that two things must happen before our gathering;
1. the great falling away (I know the world has already seen many fall away,but I can't help wondering how many Christians will fall away, when the rapture does not happen)
2. the "the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition", (pretribers believe the rupture happens before antichrist is revealed)
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#91
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#91
Well the thing is too many focus on just the rapture, even i have been sucked into this. But I found that while we are to be expecting it our focus should be on god
 
P

peterT

Guest
#92
#92
starfield said:
The scripture shows that the rapture will occur before the tribulation.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. One cannot stand before the Son of man while they are on earth.
The only way to escape is believe in the Lord Jesus now so one can be part of His raptured bride.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The imminence of the rapture supports a pre-tribulation view: Matt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. The rapture will catch people unaware like the flood in the days of Noah.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
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Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things.

This is talking about the wicked people that DON’T watch

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

It is telling you to watch that these thing don’t happen to you that will come upon the wicked

But when you see these things come to pass THEN the kingdom of God is nigh.

31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

And you can’t use the story of Noah for the pre-trib theory, because Jesus used that story for his coming Immediately after the tribulation it will be like the days of Noah.

Matt24 and Mark13 are talking about Immediately after the tribulation you will see the son of man coming. So how can you use these verses for your pr-trib theory ?

It Just leaves this one verse left you quoted for your pre-trib theory .

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If you believe the scripture in Rv12 as some do.

If you flee to the wilderness where God hath prepared a place THEN God has keep you from the hour of temptation.


Thats all you verses gone for your pre-trib theory, what ells have you got?


There is an event for the birth of Jesus. Three kings, born in a manger etc etc.

There is an event for the death of Jesus. Raised from the dead after three days etc etc.

There is an event for the 1000 year rain. and we shall reign on the earth. etc etc.

There is an event for New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven etc etc.

There is an event at the last trumpet In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible etc etc.

There is an event for jesus coming Immediately after the tribulation, the angels gather the elect, etc etc.

But there is NO event in the Bible were Jesus comes BEFOR the tribulation.

But you can squeeeeeeeze some verses to make it sound like there is a pre-trib coming, but there is NO event in the Bible were Jesus comes before the tribulation
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#93
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#93
CDavid said:
The problem that I see, with teaching this false doctrine to new believers, is that when the rapture does not happen, how many of these new believers will completely lose faith all together. Why should they believe any of the promises, if this rapture that they refer to as their "blessed hope" turns out to be a myth.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


Now, brethren, [SUB]a[/SUB] concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ [SUB]b[/SUB] and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2[/SUP] [SUB]c[/SUB] not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [SUB]1[/SUB] Christ had come. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come [SUB]d[/SUB] unless the falling away comes first, and [SUB]e[/SUB] the man of [SUB]2[/SUB] sin is revealed, [SUB]f[/SUB] the son of perdition, [SUP]4[/SUP] who opposes and [SUB]g[/SUB] exalts himself [SUB]h[/SUB] above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [SUB]3[/SUB] as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Paul clearly says that two things must happen before our gathering;
1. the great falling away (I know the world has already seen many fall away,but I can't help wondering how many Christians will fall away, when the rapture does not happen)
2. the "the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition", (pretribers believe the rupture happens before antichrist is revealed)
Click to expand...
When Christians gather today, on the Lords day, do we not gather to Him? The coming of the Lord here is not referring the 2nd coming of Christ, as in a physical manifestation. A gathering does not have to a gathering up or a vertical gathering, it can be a horizontal gathering...What is over looked by dispensationalist is verse 7, "[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[SUP][/SUP] who now restrains will do so until He[SUP][/SUP] is taken out of the way.

So what is going on here? The people of Thessalonia thought the Roman armies (the restrainer) had already conquered Jerusalem or in the process thereof, with the Christians stuck in side the walls of the city. Thus this is why the Thessalonians where concerned. But Paul said this couldn't happen yet because the lawless one was still being restrained. For if Paul were a current-day pre-tribulation dispensationalist, he would have corrected the Thessalonians in a very different manner than he did. He might have argued that if the day of the Lord had already come, they all should have been physically raptured to heaven by now. And perhaps the Thessalonians thought they where left behind while other Saints raptured up and perhaps they weren't spiritual enough. Perhaps they thought that this letter from Paul was written in heaven and that a little birdie floated it down to them at first, until they read chapter 2. It is absolutely ludicrous to turn this chapter of 2 Thessalonians into a rapture verse. Don't take this letter of Paul written to 1st Century Christians in Thessalonia and try to fit a 21st Century mind set or interpretation on it, to do so is what we call script-torture.
 
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