Rapture

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Mar 28, 2016
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As for the return of Christ, via His presence, this is so badly misunderstood by most Christians. Tradition sadly has replaced what the Word actually says. The Word says Christ's presence would return to THAT same generation as in within 40 years. His disciples expected it and taught it. Christ was not going to descend slowly back to earth as a human figure. So many get this wrong because they fail to read closely. Read Acts 1 very closely.

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Christ would come as they saw Him GO INTO HEAVEN, not as they saw Him leave Earth. What does a fully glorified Jesus look like to mere mortals in our physical realm? Paul experienced it and recounted it 3X.

Acts 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
Acts 22:6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me.
Acts 26:13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me.


Christ appears as a BRIGHT LIGHT to mortal men. Thus when Christ entered heaven, the disciples saw a bright light like a flash of lightening. THIS is EXACTLY how Christ said He would return.

Mat 24: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

We also find lightening in Revelation, don't we? Since 70 AD, Christ's presence has remained on earth with His church. We are His bride and He is our bridegroom. We are in the Kingdom Age which some call, the millennium. Christ is on the throne in heaven and the earth is His footstool and we Christians, who are not of this earth and who are hated by this earth, represent Him to the unbelievers. We are now the lights of the world, just as Christ was the LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

Dan 2: And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth....44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms (render them useless), and it shall stand forever.

The Great Mountain is Christianity. Christianity filled the whole earth and become the #1 "religion" on the planet and still is today rendering useless any kingdom of man!! Salvation is not found in any man-made kingdom. No kingdom of man can stand against the Kingdom of God for which we Christians belong. This began in the days of those Roman Caesars and continues. Around 300 AD, Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. No longer were Caesars considered gods. What a dramatic change!!

WELCOME TO THE KINGDOM AGE for those who don't yet realize it. Now Satan has likely been loosed and is out there again deceiving the nations. But have no fear, God will protect His Church!

I would agree .God is not a man as us and neither is there a fleshly mediator set between God and man as a infallible umpire.

The kingdom will not come by observation as if we walked by sight and not by faith.

Many of the disciples who were looking for a fleshly God no longer walked with Christ, in unbelief (no faith) they left.

Faith needed to believe God is the gift

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:62 -63

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2Corinthians 5:16

The one time demonstration in the flesh is over .There is no promise of Christ coming in the flesh twice. The veil is rent
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
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28
As for the return of Christ, via His presence, this is so badly misunderstood by most Christians. Tradition sadly has replaced what the Word actually says. The Word says Christ's presence would return to THAT same generation as in within 40 years. His disciples expected it and taught it. Christ was not going to descend slowly back to earth as a human figure. So many get this wrong because they fail to read closely. Read Acts 1 very closely.
Preterism is Prophetic Atheism.

Using Mathew 24 as an example, what is the context of Mathew 24?

The entire context of Mathew 24 between verse 3 and verse 51 is Jesus' answer to the question....

WHEN shall these things be. (one stone on top of another) WHAT shall be the sign of they coming. WHAT shall be the sign of the "consummation of the age."

Jesus replied, "See ye not ALL THESE THINGS?"

All these things...include the massive stones of the Western Wall. There is still one stone standing upon another.

147838-004-0E60F888.jpg

The Preterist movement CHANGED the dating of several books. According to them, Revelation NOT was written between 90-95 AD but in 65-70 AD. It makes no sense that John would write a prophetic book (in 69-70 AD) that we've broken down into 22 chapters, that had no time to be distributed, read, copied, preached or remotely understood throughout the inhabited world before its fulfillment. Little to NOTHING was understood in the book of Revelation in 70 AD or Mathew 24 because they weren't even written at that time. I have a serious problem with Preterism as it denies entire books, chapters, and hundreds of prophetic verses. I call it, "prophetic Atheism." Like Pre-trib and the Trinity, it's inspired by Satan.

Pre-tribbers say Mathew 24 is for Jews, Preterist say it's meant for the generation Jesus is speaking to. BOTH are wrong and it's actually very east to prove. Changing the mind of a Pre-Tribber, Preterist, or Trinitarian is no different than changing the mind of any stubborn indoctrinated Christian. It seldom happens.

Preterist believe that nearly all of Mathew 24 is figurative and fulfilled in the first century. Some go as far as saying the earthquakes Jesus mentions in verse 7 are figurative of "the earth shaking events surrounding 70 AD." That's just foolishness.

Every stone WAS NOT thrown down in 70 AD. The temple was burned and stones from it and several other buildings on the Temple Mount still stood for up to 300 years after 70 AD.

VERSE 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus uses the word 'THIS' because 'this' is the generation that will see and endure what he is talking about.
The word THIS is better understood in some verses as "even so" even as" and "so thus." And in some translations "these" and "the same." The antecedent to "this Generation" in verse 34 is ALL of what Jesus said between verses 4-33.

Look at it this way...
"EVEN SO, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


Vines says about the word THIS...
Even (Adverb, Etc.), Even As, Even So:
or houto, "so, thus," is frequently rendered "even so," e.g., Mat 7:17; 12:45; 18:14; 23:28; "so" in 1Cr 11:12; 1Th 2:4, RV.


Verse 35-36 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus is talking TO the people in front of him about the people who will SEE AND ENDURE all the things he previously mentioned in the chapter. Not ONCE does the passage suggest Jesus is deviating from talking about events approaching "the end" or any other generation other than the one that sees and endures the events and conditions coming upon the planet at the consummation of the age.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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You write so passionately but you are not convincing anyone. One question though:
Q. If the end was in the 70AD, can you do the 70 week calculation from Daniel's prophesy and show how it ends in 70AD?
Nobody can show the end of the 70 weeks ending in 70 AD because they end before that. You have to remember what the 70 weeks were for and what they covered and who they pertained to. The 70 weeks do not apply to the entire planet Earth and they certainly don't apply to us as we are way beyond 70 weeks. The 70 weeks clearly applied to Daniel's people and Daniel's holy city as stated below.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


They had 70 weeks or 490 years to accomplish all of the above. Since they did not make an end of sins and since they killed their Messiah in the middle of the 70th week, God determined that their punishment would come in the form of consummation (fire) which of course happened at the hand of the people of the prince to come (Rome). Nowhere does it say the 70 weeks was to include their punishment. Again, this is a case of tradition replacing what the Word actually says. There is no gap of thousands of years. The 70 weeks ran out in 33-34 AD and Messiah was put to death in 30 AD.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Nobody can show the end of the 70 weeks ending in 70 AD because they end before that. You have to remember what the 70 weeks were for and what they covered and who they pertained to. The 70 weeks do not apply to the entire planet Earth and they certainly don't apply to us as we are way beyond 70 weeks. The 70 weeks clearly applied to Daniel's people and Daniel's holy city as stated below.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


They had 70 weeks or 490 years to accomplish all of the above. Since they did not make an end of sins and since they killed their Messiah in the middle of the 70th week, God determined that their punishment would come in the form of consummation (fire) which of course happened at the hand of the people of the prince to come (Rome). Nowhere does it say the 70 weeks was to include their punishment. Again, this is a case of tradition replacing what the Word actually says. There is no gap of thousands of years. The 70 weeks ran out in 33-34 AD and Messiah was put to death in 30 AD.
You are the one who said 70AD was the end and also Jesus when He was asked when the end would come, referred them to the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet- when we go to Daniel, we see that 70 weeks was determined.

If you can't show us how 70AD is the end of the 70th week, don't you think you need to keep quiet and let people who know, talk about it?

Jesus said "...let the reader understand..." when He was speaking about the abomination that causes desolate spoken by Daniel. You read but did not understand, so i don't think you are qualified to tell us when the end was or will be.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Interesting that there are 7 trumpets in the Jericho story. All Gods people were with Joshua. Only the harlot was in the city.
2 witnesses ( spies) came and left the city and only interacted with the harlot.
Joshua is yeshua.
The harlot is the jewish remnant.
The army and singers are the church.
Rapture is pretrib
Rahab and family ( jews) come in last.
Jesus said the first are last.
Jesus first miracle,first business, was at a jewish wedding. As is his last business.
Remember,you heard it here first.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Preterism is Prophetic Atheism.

Using Mathew 24 as an example, what is the context of Mathew 24?

The entire context of Mathew 24 between verse 3 and verse 51 is Jesus' answer to the question....

WHEN shall these things be. (one stone on top of another) WHAT shall be the sign of they coming. WHAT shall be the sign of the "consummation of the age."

Jesus replied, "See ye not ALL THESE THINGS?"

All these things...include the massive stones of the Western Wall. There is still one stone standing upon another.

View attachment 186941

The Preterist movement CHANGED the dating of several books. According to them, Revelation NOT was written between 90-95 AD but in 65-70 AD. It makes no sense that John would write a prophetic book (in 69-70 AD) that we've broken down into 22 chapters, that had no time to be distributed, read, copied, preached or remotely understood throughout the inhabited world before its fulfillment. Little to NOTHING was understood in the book of Revelation in 70 AD or Mathew 24 because they weren't even written at that time. I have a serious problem with Preterism as it denies entire books, chapters, and hundreds of prophetic verses. I call it, "prophetic Atheism." Like Pre-trib and the Trinity, it's inspired by Satan.

Pre-tribbers say Mathew 24 is for Jews, Preterist say it's meant for the generation Jesus is speaking to. BOTH are wrong and it's actually very east to prove. Changing the mind of a Pre-Tribber, Preterist, or Trinitarian is no different than changing the mind of any stubborn indoctrinated Christian. It seldom happens.

Preterist believe that nearly all of Mathew 24 is figurative and fulfilled in the first century. Some go as far as saying the earthquakes Jesus mentions in verse 7 are figurative of "the earth shaking events surrounding 70 AD." That's just foolishness.

Every stone WAS NOT thrown down in 70 AD. The temple was burned and stones from it and several other buildings on the Temple Mount still stood for up to 300 years after 70 AD.

VERSE 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus uses the word 'THIS' because 'this' is the generation that will see and endure what he is talking about.
The word THIS is better understood in some verses as "even so" even as" and "so thus." And in some translations "these" and "the same." The antecedent to "this Generation" in verse 34 is ALL of what Jesus said between verses 4-33.

Look at it this way...
"EVEN SO, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


Vines says about the word THIS...
Even (Adverb, Etc.), Even As, Even So:
or houto, "so, thus," is frequently rendered "even so," e.g., Mat 7:17; 12:45; 18:14; 23:28; "so" in 1Cr 11:12; 1Th 2:4, RV.


Verse 35-36 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus is talking TO the people in front of him about the people who will SEE AND ENDURE all the things he previously mentioned in the chapter. Not ONCE does the passage suggest Jesus is deviating from talking about events approaching "the end" or any other generation other than the one that sees and endures the events and conditions coming upon the planet at the consummation of the age.
Have you studied any history or do you simply regurgitate the false teachings and traditions of men that you learned? The Western Wall was not part of the temple as so many wrongly think. It was part of the Antonia Fortress, which Herod built. The Romans left parts of three Roman towers behind as a sign of their strength and victory over the Jews. The second temple was utterly and completely removed, stone by stone, just as Jesus said it would and as recorded by Josephus. Your ignorance is surpassed only by your stupidity with comments like "prophetic atheism." Shame on you!!!

Let's take your foolish statement here, shall we?

The Preterist movement CHANGED the dating of several books. According to them, Revelation NOT was written between 90-95 AD but in 65-70 AD. It makes no sense that John would write a prophetic book (in 69-70 AD) that we've broken down into 22 chapters, that had no time to be distributed, read, copied, preached or remotely understood throughout the inhabited world before its fulfillment.

You apparently don't realize that Revelation was written to seven specific churches in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey), not the entire known world. The isle of Patmos lay just off the coast from these 7 churches in very close proximity for Revelation to be distributed to these churches before the fall of Jerusalem. The Preterist movement did not re-date the writing of Revelation as there is no concrete dating of it to 90-96 AD. There was one root source, AND ONLY ONLY, that might have suggested a dating to the reign of Domitian and that was a second century FRENCH cleric with no first hand knowledge of anything.

However, we have a much closer source, from Syria that says this:

"The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor."

Every single event in Revelation can be tied to the period of 66-70 AD. Christ said His presence would return to and punish that generation, not ours or any other. At the time He said it, we didn't know the day or hour but now we do.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
You are the one who said 70AD was the end and also Jesus when He was asked when the end would come, referred them to the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet- when we go to Daniel, we see that 70 weeks was determined.

If you can't show us how 70AD is the end of the 70th week, don't you think you need to keep quiet and let people who know, talk about it?

Jesus said "...let the reader understand..." when He was speaking about the abomination that causes desolate spoken by Daniel. You read but did not understand, so i don't think you are qualified to tell us when the end was or will be.
I've already answered this in clear detail. Nothing says that the 70 weeks ends with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I laboriously proved this to you. 70 weeks or 490 years were determined for the Jews and Jerusalem to accomplish certain things, PERIOD end of STORY.

As Peter taught, God was long suffering, not willing that any should perish so he sent the disciples and the church out to try to convince as many Jews as possible in the true identity of their Messiah. Many came to the Lord and were spared. Those who did not hear this word, perished in the destruction of Israel, just as Peter taught in Acts 3. See also Deu 28 as the final destruction of Israel was first told there. There was a 40 year transition between ages from 30 to 70 AD just as there was when they left Egypt and were given the Law.

The Age of the Law or Mosaic Age centered around Israel as the witness of God to the world. The Messianic Age, our age, has the church as the witness of God to the world.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Josephus:

4. Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants. Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with.

Daniel:

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.

Jesus:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

All speak of the same event!! There will never be another event like this.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
28
Plainword said,

Have you studied any history or do you simply regurgitate the false teachings and traditions of men that you learned? The Western Wall was not part of the temple as so many wrongly think.
Jesus said, "See ye not ALL THESE THINGS!" When the stones fall that are still standing that will be a major sign.

Your ignorance is surpassed only by your stupidity with comments like "prophetic atheism." Shame on you!!!
I don't know why I stick around and deal with some of you. Preterism is sinful. It denies thousands of verses of prophecy, entire chapters and entire books. It's a major perversion and denial of God's Word, worse than any other. It's an abomination. It's a prophetic cop out. It's so easy to say, "it already happened."

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

It makes no sense that the book would be solely for the seven churches. It's only the Preterist who have changed the dates of the gospels and Epistles. That means that in a time of severe persecution, those churches had no time to decipher or understand the book!

Irenaeus

Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian”

Iranaeus

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Clement of Alexandria

Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).​
Victorinus

Jerome

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18).

Jerome
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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I would agree .God is not a man as us and neither is there a fleshly mediator set between God and man as a infallible umpire.

The kingdom will not come by observation as if we walked by sight and not by faith.

Many of the disciples who were looking for a fleshly God no longer walked with Christ, in unbelief (no faith) they left.

Faith needed to believe God is the gift

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:62 -63

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2Corinthians 5:16

The one time demonstration in the flesh is over .There is no promise of Christ coming in the flesh twice. The veil is rent
Oh boy garee, where do you come up with this stuff? You said, "
The kingdom will not come by observation as if we walked by sight and not by faith.

Many of the disciples who were looking for a fleshly God no longer walked with Christ, in unbelief (no faith) they left." First of all, what about the disciples at Acts 1:11? "and they also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus (who is God in the flesh garee) who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in JUST THE SAME WAY as up have WATCHED HIM GO INTO HEAVEN."

So, what does 2 Corinthians 5:7 have to do with the physical coming of Jesus Christ? You have a way bringing in unrelated verse that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. When it says, "we walk by faith and not by sight" it means Christians live our lives by trusting Him without having to physically see Him." Remember what Jesus said to Thomas at John 20:29? "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Finally, is Jesus Christ returning at His second coming in a body of fleshe and bone? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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I've already answered this in clear detail. Nothing says that the 70 weeks ends with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I laboriously proved this to you. 70 weeks or 490 years were determined for the Jews and Jerusalem to accomplish certain things, PERIOD end of STORY.

As Peter taught, God was long suffering, not willing that any should perish so he sent the disciples and the church out to try to convince as many Jews as possible in the true identity of their Messiah. Many came to the Lord and were spared. Those who did not hear this word, perished in the destruction of Israel, just as Peter taught in Acts 3. See also Deu 28 as the final destruction of Israel was first told there. There was a 40 year transition between ages from 30 to 70 AD just as there was when they left Egypt and were given the Law.

The Age of the Law or Mosaic Age centered around Israel as the witness of God to the world. The Messianic Age, our age, has the church as the witness of God to the world.
Let's assume you are right - let's say the 490 years of Daniel ended at 37 AD as you have said.
Jesus when answering the question about end time events referred people back to Daniel:

Matt 24:
9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.

Let's see what Daniel prophesied:

Dan 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’h In the middle of the ‘seven’i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templej he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Daniel 11:31
His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.

My questions are very simple:

Q1. When did this desecration of the temple happen if 37AD was to be the end of these things?
Q2. Which end was Jesus talking about when He referred people back to Daniel? was it 37AD or 70AD?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Let's assume you are right - let's say the 490 years of Daniel ended at 37 AD as you have said.
Jesus when answering the question about end time events referred people back to Daniel:

Matt 24:
9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.

Let's see what Daniel prophesied:

Dan 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’h In the middle of the ‘seven’i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templej he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Daniel 11:31
His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.

My questions are very simple:

Q1. When did this desecration of the temple happen if 37AD was to be the end of these things?
Q2. Which end was Jesus talking about when He referred people back to Daniel? was it 37AD or 70AD?
Are you conflating Dan 11 with Dan 9. Dan 11 desecration was at the hands of Antiochus IV Epiphanes while Dan 9 dealt with Titus. Dan 8 and 11 go together and Dan 9 and 12 go together. Jesus was speaking of the end of Israel which happened in 70 AD. Hope this helps?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Plainword said,



Jesus said, "See ye not ALL THESE THINGS!" When the stones fall that are still standing that will be a major sign.



I don't know why I stick around and deal with some of you. Preterism is sinful. It denies thousands of verses of prophecy, entire chapters and entire books. It's a major perversion and denial of God's Word, worse than any other. It's an abomination. It's a prophetic cop out. It's so easy to say, "it already happened."

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

It makes no sense that the book would be solely for the seven churches. It's only the Preterist who have changed the dates of the gospels and Epistles. That means that in a time of severe persecution, those churches had no time to decipher or understand the book!

Irenaeus

Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian”

Iranaeus

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Clement of Alexandria

Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).​
Victorinus

Jerome

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18).

Jerome
Sinful? Seriously? Your view calls Christ a liar as Christ said He was coming quickly to their generation. He said His return was literally, "at the door." Paul told the Thessalonians to watch and be sober. For what? A return thousands of years later? All of the signs Christ gave could be considered 1st century signs. If Christ's return was to be in our future, let's say 5 years from now, wouldn't a whole different set of signs be given such as walking on the moon and space travel, of television, of computers, of machines flying in the sky, tall building etc? But no, Christ discusses people in the fields and people on roof tops, a common place to sleep before air conditioning. Christ didn't tell anyone "to leave their office and don't drive home to get anything," did He?

I mentioned that the only root source for a 90-96 AD dating came from a second century French clergyman and you named him, Iranaeus. He met Polycarp once about 35 years before he recounted the meeting. To say he was a student of Polycarp would be like me saying I was a student of Billy Graham because I went to one of his revivals years ago. All others get their source from Iranaeus. The return of Christ's presence was all the disciples could talk about and they talked about it as if it were to be imminent. However, none of the later church fathers you named made any reference to it. In fact Polycarp and Ignatius looked forward to death so that they could be with Jesus and not His return. Ignatius went further to declare that Christ had returned and raised the disciples from the dead.

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter IX.

Good luck trying to explain this away good buddy!!!
 
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Fully polished now, refinement by fire that the reader may more clearly understand. I can not stand for my work to not be fully delivered. Development in early stages is not wrong just not fully realized as it is , it came about in here.

A FORUM MEMBER SAID:Some pastors say yes the Holy Spirit will leave the earth after the Rapture of the Church. I believe the Holy Spirit will not leave. Why? Because the bible teaches us that people will be saved after the Rapture of the Church and during "The Great Tribulation."[/QUOTE]
They obviously believe in a pretrib or midtrib Rapture.

MY RESPONSE:

Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach (THE SHEPHERDESS PORTION) and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today, only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. The Rev.7 portion are sealed through the Rachel portion. They are those who convert to Christianity through(The Shepherdess portion of the Church) and though part of the Bride they are only so through being the Brides offspring Rev12:17 . They will be martyred. They are like Christ in that fact, the Bride-like Mother Mary. Those who have died prior to this end of the age church who are Christians but not martyred, are part of the second resurrection. We the last generation- " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the end of the age Beast System and those who were martyred by the same evil system throughout history. For they too were martyred by a beast system of prior times. My point: it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections.
If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection too because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THIS BEAST SYSTEM ERA) . The Rev. is geared to an end time Elect. Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ. That does not mean that souls who were martyred in prior Christian history are not part of the first resurrection.

The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up - their lives are only touched by the hand of God, not man. This is regarding the snatching or being caught up- today the word ( Rapture ) is applied. This has never happened to a Large group of people.Those Christians who have fallen asleep, (only the martyred souls from past Christian history) will be part of the first resurrection. The apostles are part of the first resurrection ex..... . St . Paul clearly states those who have fallen asleep are clearly caught up first then us who are alive and remain, but they are the martyred ones only or else there would be only need for one resurrection not two and their would be no such thing as FIRST FRUITS.

For the End Time portion of today This is what Revelation is speaking of.
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

PROOF OF TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev21.A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, (thousand year reign with Yeshua (Jesus) )
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

REV. 20 CONTINUED: 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!
 
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Nobody can show the end of the 70 weeks ending in 70 AD because they end before that. You have to remember what the 70 weeks were for and what they covered and who they pertained to. The 70 weeks do not apply to the entire planet Earth and they certainly don't apply to us as we are way beyond 70 weeks. The 70 weeks clearly applied to Daniel's people and Daniel's holy city as stated below.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


They had 70 weeks or 490 years to accomplish all of the above. Since they did not make an end of sins and since they killed their Messiah in the middle of the 70th week, God determined that their punishment would come in the form of consummation (fire) which of course happened at the hand of the people of the prince to come (Rome). Nowhere does it say the 70 weeks was to include their punishment. Again, this is a case of tradition replacing what the Word actually says. There is no gap of thousands of years. The 70 weeks ran out in 33-34 AD and Messiah was put to death in 30 AD.
It would seem the 70 weeks came at the time of refomation (Hebrews 9) when Christ said in respect to the promised one time demonstration.. it is finished. The veil was rent signaling the last days typified by a thousand years in that parable found in Revelation 20 .. but not a literal thousands years. We are still in the last days.

The last day used 6 times in John who also wrote Revelation signifies the last trump jusgement day for thos who know him and not as the same day those in heaven asleep will meet with the Lord and receive the propmise of faith a new incorruptible body

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All in the twinkling of the eye.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
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The illustrious PlainWord said,
Sinful? Seriously? Your view calls Christ a liar as Christ said He was coming quickly to their generation. He said His return was literally, "at the door." Paul told the Thessalonians to watch and be sober. For what? A return thousands of years later?
You don't know that a first century man has to use first century knowledge and terminology to convey his message? Why would a Preterist know that! We are told to watch and be sober throughout the NT. Don't let it fool you.
All of the signs Christ gave could be considered 1st century signs. If Christ's return was to be in our future, let's say 5 years from now, wouldn't a whole different set of signs be given such as walking on the moon and space travel, of television, of computers, of machines flying in the sky, tall building etc? But no, Christ discusses people in the fields and people on roof tops, a common place to sleep before air conditioning. Christ didn't tell anyone "to leave their office and don't drive home to get anything," did He?
Wow, you really have no idea about this. Your mentors have done a good job deceiving you.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

I wonder how many wars and rumors of wars there were that passed between 33AD and 70AD where Christ was inspired to say, "but the end is not yet!!

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

I wonder how many nations fought against one another between 33AD and 70AD, how many famine, pestilences, and earthquakes there were in several places in that short amount of time! Do you believe like the fool who tried to tell me that the 'earthquakes' mentioned in verse 7 are "the ground shaking events around 70AD!"

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

That happened THEN, and it's still happening today.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
That has ISLAM written all over it!

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

I can imagine how many false prophets rose back then to deceive people, esp. during a time of severe Roman persecution. Only a real fool would have proclaimed himself a prophet.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Lawlessness, it abounds today something fierce in Islam and the Arab Middle-East!

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

End of what? Roman occupation?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Let me repeat!
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Now that verse alone debunks your Preterist nonsense. The gospel was not preached throughout the world, it didn't even have time to be translated, and they were still using papyrus! AND! The word WORLD is the word "oikoumenē" which means "the inhabited earth!"

The New Testament books and epistles were written during the Roman occupation of Israel and persecution of Christians. CHRISTIAN documents of that time were suppressed for a while because of Rome. First century NT writings had little time to be hand copied and were read to their audience at that time. It took years for them to be copied, let alone translated into other languages like Latin, Chinese, and several languages that existed in India etc. where they could be propagated. Most of the New Testament writings were not compiled until very late in the first century.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

Go ahead and tell what this abomination is. Nero never had a statue of himself in the Temple. Preterist can't agree on that one anyway.

No need for me to go any further. I know you won't change your deceived made up little mind.
_________________
Ignatius went further to declare that Christ had returned and raised the disciples from the dead.

That's a good one! If he did actually say that, and you believe him, good luck in your journey understanding the Word of God.

If Christ had returned 'back then' that makes the gospel and all the books of the bible useless. You guys, or your deceitful little mentors, HAD TO CHANGE the dates of nearly every NT book to make Preterism work. They hold fast to their 1st century because they can't explain the prophecies in anything other than a 1st century fulfilment. There are so many ways to go with it. It's easier for them to explain away prophecy in the past tense than it is to figure it out and understand it in the future sense. There's no figuring out the books of Daniel, Revelation, or any other end-time prophecy without some willingness to search and speculate with an open mind and change your mind when the evidence is there to do so. God has more trouble enlightening someone who believes they have these things already figured out.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Luke 21:5-7
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 Master when will [the temple be thrown down]? And what sign will there be when these things begin?"


Christ's answer:

1) You will be beaten, imprisoned, called to give an account of the truth, betrayed by family and friends, and some will even die. The world will hate you. But remain patient until the end. Luke 21:12

- From Pentecost in 27AD to first martyr (Steven) in 34AD; Covenant Confirmed for 1 "week" (Daniel 9:27) with signs & wonders
- Most of original apostles & disciples imprisoned or killed between 27AD and 100AD
- Brotherly love will grow cold because sin will grow rampant
- But the gospel will be preached to all the world for a witness (Matt 24:14)


2) When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that its desolation [and temple destruction] is about to begin. GET OUT! Flee to the mountains. Don't let anyone go back. Luke 21:20

- Abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27)
- Jerusalem's Destruction (70AD)
- "Not one stone" (western wall is actually Fort Antonia)


3) This will be the days of vengeance written about in the Scriptures. This will be the great distress on the land of Israel and wrath upon THIS people. Luke 21:22

- For the chosen people rejecting Christ...
- Great Tribulation is on the Jews (Matt 24:21)
- Affliction that has never been experienced since the world began (Mark 13:19)
- Time of Jacob's Trouble begins for "Jacob" (Jeremiah 30:7)
- Deuteronomy 28:15 punishments for breaking the covenant
- None of them would be spared unless the days of tribulation are cut short for the elect's sake (i.e. Remnant Israel = Romans 11:5 & 28)


4) THIS people will be (a) killed, (b) led away as slaves into all nations, (c) and Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until their time is over. Luke 21:24

- Israel was persecuted, killed, destroyed as a nation and scattered to the four winds (Daniel 12:7)
- Israel was made slaves of all nations (Jeremiah 30:8)
- Jerusalem is being trampled by "non-Jews" until Christ returns (Revelation 2:9 & 3:9)


5) Many shall come in my name deceiving and this will happen very soon. Don't follow them. Luke 21:8

- Catholic Church "Fathers" changed the gospel (Paul wrote about it)
- Great Schism
- 2000+ Denominations
- etc.
- False Christ's & False Prophets; if it's possible they'll deceive the elect (i.e. remnant of Israel = Romans 11:5 & 28) (Matt 24:24)

- "Don't believe I'm anywhere secret", because as lightning shines from one end of the sky to the other so will my appearance be.


6) You'll hear of wars and rumors of wars. Ethnic group against ethic group. Government against government. Luke 21:8-9

- "holy" wars
- European wars
- African wars
- Asian wars
- Revolutions
- World War 1
- World War 2
- etc.


7) Earth quakes, famine, sicknesses, scary heavenly signs. Luke 21:11

- Seismic activity; Tsunamis; volcanoes
- Economic collapses; Hyper inflation (poverty)
- Diseases & Epidemics
- etc.
- Immediately AFTER the great tribulation of the Jews (Matt 24:29)
- After that tribulation in those days... (Mark 19:24)
- Solar & lunar Eclipses; meteors; darkness; strange weather

(I believe we are here, currently...)


8) Then the world will see the Son of Man coming in power and glory. When you see this look up. Luke 21:27

- Wherever the dead body is there the vultures will be gathered (to pick at its bones) (Matt 24:28)
- Scattered Israel = The Dead body = Valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37)
- The Elect (i.e. remnant Israel = Romans 11:5 & 28) will be resurrected and gathered from four winds (Ezekiel 37:21; Matt 24:31; Mark 3:27)

----

So Christ's prophecy spans 27/28 AD to 2018 AD so far.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Are you conflating Dan 11 with Dan 9. Dan 11 desecration was at the hands of Antiochus IV Epiphanes while Dan 9 dealt with Titus. Dan 8 and 11 go together and Dan 9 and 12 go together. Jesus was speaking of the end of Israel which happened in 70 AD. Hope this helps?
So which desecration happened in 34AD because Daniel 9 talks of the middle of the last week and your last week is from 30AD to 37AD?

Jesus when talking about the end times, He is referring us back to what Daniel said- so if your end is 37AD, then the desecration of the temple should be around 34AD which you can't demonstrate. Shouting 70AD doesn't make it right, that's way off the mark, another 5 weeks on top which Daniel did not recognize.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Hey Dudley, do a little homework before you challenge an historian.

You don't know that a first century man has to use first century knowledge and terminology to convey his message? Why would a Preterist know that! We are told to watch and be sober throughout the NT. Don't let it fool you.
No, the Thessalonians were told to watch and be sober. Paul was writing to them. Where does Paul tell them that it would be thousands of years that they (or we) would have to wait?

Same goes for Jesus. In Mat 23 & 24 He said He would return to their generation. He said His return was "at the door!!" Did He stand at the door for 2,000 years? Is He still "at the door?" In Rev 1 Jesus tells John that He was showing him things that would "shortly take place" and that "the time is (was) near." John wrote specific messages to 7 specific churches. These messages contained instruction and encouragement and even threats. Why, for events that would not happen for thousands of years? In Rev 22:12 and 20 Jesus says He was coming quickly. On what planet is 2,000 years considered "quick?"

When Jesus answered the question in Mat 24, does He speak of a 2,000 year gap between some things and others? If so, please point it out to me.

I wonder how many wars and rumors of wars there were that passed between 33AD and 70AD where Christ was inspired to say, "but the end is not yet!!
There were a lot of little wars. Study some history. Have you heard about the Roman-Parthian War? How about the revolt of Boudica in Brittan? Do you know anything about the massive civil war in Rome from 68-69 AD, AKA, the "The Year of the Four Emperors?" There was also this little revolt in Israel that began in 66 AD. Maybe you heard about that one? You had two different Roman generals invade Israel, then leave before Titus came in Feb 0070 AD, the end (of Israel) was not yet. There was also a scuffle going on in Egypt prior to this and the Zealots were battling the Syrians in the north and Rome invaded the Transjordan to the east.

I wonder how many nations fought against one another between 33AD and 70AD, how many famine, pestilences, and earthquakes there were in several places in that short amount of time! Do you believe like the fool who tried to tell me that the 'earthquakes' mentioned in verse 7 are "the ground shaking events around 70AD!"
No, they were literal earthquakes and literal famines between 33-70 AD. Have you read the Bible or are you speaking only from Sunday School lessons, things like feeding the 5,000 and turning water into wine?

How did Paul and Silas get out of prison? When did this occur?

Acts 16: 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.

Then if you read a little history such as the writings of the first century historian Tacitus we read a description of the conditions in A.D. 51 in Rome: "This year witnessed many prodigies signs or omens... including repeated earthquakes." Josephus accounts that an earthquake in Judea was such a magnitude that "the constitution of the universe was confounded for the destruction of men."

He also wrote wrote that earthquakes were "a common calamity", and indicated that God Himself had brought them about for a special purpose. There were earthquakes in Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea. Paul started churches at Colosse and Hierapolis. However, these two cities, along with Laodicea, suffered a great earthquake in approximately A.D. 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon after the earthquake, but Colosse and Hierapolis were not.

The earthquake at Hierapolis was so destructive that the emperor, in order to relieve the distresses of the inhabitants, remitted its tribute for five years. Both these earthquakes are recorded by Tacitus. There was one also, in the same reign in Crete. This is mentioned by Philostratus, in his Life of Apollonius, who says, that 'there were others at Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, and Samos; in all which places Jews had settled.' In the reign of Nero there was an earthquake at Laodicea. Tacitus records this also.

It is likewise mentioned by Eusebius and Orosius, who add that Hieropolis and Colose, as well as Laodicea, were overthrown by an earthquake. There was also one in Campania in this reign (of this both Tacitus and Seneca speak) and another at Rome in the reign of Galba, recorded by Suetonius; to all which may be added those which happened on that dreadful night. When the Idumeans were excluded from Jerusalem, a short time before the siege commenced. "A heavy storm (says Josephus) burst on them during the night violent winds arose, accompanied with the most excessive rains and hail, with constant lightnings, most tremendous thunderings, and with dreadful roarings of earthquakes.

Rev 8:5: And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

I would say that the above could be considered, "earthquakes in various places." What say you?

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

I can imagine how many false prophets rose back then to deceive people, esp. during a time of severe Roman persecution. Only a real fool would have proclaimed himself a prophet.
Seriously?!?!? There were a ton of them as I showed you before. Are you even reading anything I write? I'm trying to help you.