FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide the verse or verses that clearly show Jesus taking believers to heaven before the Tribulation.
This is the biggest chink in the armor of pre-tribbers. You don't have any verse that clearly shows Jesus taking ANY believers to heaven.
John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
This verse isn't about Jesus taking anyone back to heaven, as most think. Here is the whole context:
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
In v.1 Jesus encourages the 11 to trust Him.
In v.2 Jesus is affirming the fact that all 11 will go to heaven when they die. After the mess with Judas, it seems obvious that their security was shaken. So Jesus confirms and affirms that they WILL go to heaven when they die.
So, in v.3 Jesus tells them He will come back. But He doesn't say He will take them back to heaven "when he comes" (1 Cor 15:23), He says "take you to be with Me". This wording is very similar to what Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever.
When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, ALL believers will receive gorified bodies and will ALWAYS be with Him forever.
If you can find any error in my explanation, please address it and show how it is wrong.
FreeGrace2 said:
And since Rev 20 proves that the resurrection of the saved occurs AFTER the Tribulation, you CANNOT argue for a pre-trib resurrection.
It just doesn't fly.
Revelation 20 is about the resurrection of the damned.
Actually, both are mentioned. And my statement stands.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And
I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Blue words refer to martyrs in the Tribulation, who will be resurrected and reign with Christ, so an obvious reference to the Second Advent, "when he comes" back to reign. (1 Cor 15:23)
Red words refer to unbelievers in v.5 and 6. The respective resurrections are 1,000 years apart.
Yes. And the Saints are prepared for the wedding. That is a given. We are those Saints.
If you die before He returns, then yes, you will be in that preparation.
Correct. She is about to get Married. This is not difficult. She will then return to Earth with her Husband.
No. Ch 19 is about the preparation of the wedding supper, not the actual wedding itself. I showed you the wording that proves preparation. In fact, the wording prevents the event having already happened 7 years prior. Esp v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those
who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
IF the event had already occurred 7 years before, the words "who ARE invited" would have been "who WERE invited" or "who HAD BEEN invited". So obviously John was communicating what was ABOUT TO OCCUR, not something that had occurred 7 years prior.
FreeGrace2 said:
All believes are resurrected/changed "when He comes", a clear reference to...
Why did you cut off the rest of my sentence? Didn't want others to see it? Didn't want to have to try to refute what you can't?
The word "rapture" is OK ONLY IF it is taken as living believers will be caught up together with all the dead saints in the clouds to get their glorified bodies.
What 'rapture' cannot ever mean is being taken to heaven after resurrection. Because there are no verses that say that.
1 Corinthians 15:52
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Nothing here about being taken to heaven after receiving a glorified body.
And then, after the Marriage, we return with Him to Earth for the Millennial Reign.
There are no verses that plainly say the marriage occurs in heaven. And if that were true, it would be in direct conflict with 1 Cor 15:23, which says that resurrection will occur WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent.
Please address this.
Yes. And at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Nope. 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly PROVE that the resurrection/caught up-rapture occurs at the Second Advent.
FreeGrace2 said:
3. the wedding supper occurs when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Rev 19
No. You have it confused with the feast of the birds. (Not a pretty place or time for a wedding.)
OK, please fill this in with actual verses so I can see what you are referring to.
Yes! Three out of four ain't bad!
What were you scoring here? You still haven't supported your claims from Scripture. You erroneously thought John 14:3 was about rapture but it said nothing about being taken to heaven. Neither does 1 Thess 4:17.