Reading the bible literally or figuratively... that is the question

HealthAndHappiness · Apr 9, 2023

This is true that M.E. has nothing to do with the Bible. It attacks the Bible and plants seeds of doubt in many. The verses were Bible and she was right to bring it up.

However, the devil popularized a new version of his old lie in the garden. He was very clever. Our grandmother eve should have asked Adam about him or told God what the serpent said. Hope In Him, did the right thing to question that theory. The verses the O.P. quoted have become the brunt of Satanic attacks for many years. Venomous snakes can be dangerous. I'd rather deal with them myself than let them bite others.

Artios1 · Apr 9, 2023

Inquisitor said:

I asked the question because You made this ↓ statement in response to my post

Inquisitor said:

Which I stated in my opening line (in post #9) “When speech departs from normalcy you usually have a figure of speech which would not be taken literally”.

Why would I claim that as a direct contradiction to what I had stated.

As far as Jesus Christ being the tree of [eternal] life of the garden ....That is a guess..... no one knows ...Because God never discloses that. In addition to the fact that the seed (Gen 3:15) had not yet been introduced into the scene until after the original sin had been committed. ........... Of course there are several responses to that statement.... but they all rely on hypothesis about God’s Omniscience…freedom of will… and other things.

HealthAndHappiness · Apr 9, 2023

Magenta said:

That's fit for framing.

JonathanBentley · Apr 9, 2023

I believe Revelations is figurative. It's all a vision of John. I don't really believe it's 7 years. It could be a long tribulation that already started. But really I question the book of revelations because it's figurative with horses and trumpets. I don't believe it should be taken literal especially the 7 year thing. I know it says something like time times and a half in the original I don't like translations making it months. It's just too much to put in 7 years. I think world wars were the horses.

Magenta · Apr 9, 2023

HealthAndHappiness said:

I have removed the accidentally added dot, so the next time it is posted it will be better .

HopeinHim98 · Apr 9, 2023

HealthAndHappiness said:

I had to tend to a couple of tasks after dinner, but finally done. Now back to the good questions you asked me. There should be more Christians able to debunk the M.A. because some popular speakers caused a lot of doubt and confusion, mostly in conservative circles from what have seen.
When I was confronted with the Bible verse by the first friend, it shortly after became a trend in radio shows. I wondered why the shows interviewed New Age gurus instead of Bible believing preachers? I guess it was because they didn't really believe the Bible to begin with and they wanted to gain converts. They talked like their religion of mantras, vibrations and frequencies were more valid than the Bible: Then they tried to sound authoritative about their Bible knowledge. After they were done talking, I've been tempted to call in and ask if they ever started reading Genesis and made it all the way to Isaiah. Once I did call in and asked popular New Age leader David Icky how many "christs" he believed there were. He said "Many christs, blah, blah, blah". He compared Buddha to Jesus to Krishna, to Mohammad, etc. Then I got the host mad for exposing his guest.
That's ok, because God answered my prayer so that listeners would not be deceived by Icky .
Grace towards the others in these topics should be shown, but can't stand the gurus. I was deceived into Transcendental Meditation as a kid, so these topics are on my radar when others need help. Back to the verses.

It's easy to understand how "the lion shall lie down with the lamb" came about as popular thought. None of us know it all. I've been wrong about other things and sometimes
need insight that isn't obvious. I doubt there are many preachers who cover pop culture and controversial topics. Here's a brief summary that we can think about.

1. Are most people (pastors) going to memorize long and difficult verses that don't get preached on much, or easier to learn passages that get used often?

Human nature tends towards the easiest way to get a task done. There are plenty of exceptions, but the average is to cut corners.

2. When they do preach a sermon, do pastors always quote a verse correctly or do they sometimes shorten and paraphrase a verse?

3. Do congregations as an average retain what they often hear taught/ preached or what they read on their own?

There are many who are faithful to a weekly service, but few read the Bible regularly.
That allows mistakes from the pulpit to get through without going through the internal filter of familiarity. It happens to all of us. We also need the Holy Spirit to help us to understand and discern.

4. Where have I read, "the lion shall lie down with the lamb?"

I can't speak for anyone else, but I probably read it first in a children's coloring book while filling in between the lines. I've seen it on other Pictures like wall hangings and tee shirts.

Once in the 700 Club, they featured a Christian Zoo that had a lion. The owner quoted this "verse" while The lion handler fed the cat steaks. Veeeery carefully there were helpers who brought a lamb to it and placed it beside the lion while they distracted him with raw steak. 😆
Lol!
That alone would be enough for a child to memorize the very short paraphrase, "The Lion Will Lie Down with the Lamb, and a Little Child Shall Lead Them."
I've done wildlife shows, but not with lions, so I know that the misquote will have more of an emotional and mental anchor than most people's daily reading program. Many preachers simply repeat what they heard for years too and carry on the traditions, regardless of how Biblically sound they may be.

Here are the two passages many well meaning people try to quote.

Isaiah 11:6-9
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

I love that!
Here's another,
Isaiah 65:24, 25
"And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."

I started with verse 24 first because that is one of my current memory verses. God does this all the time. He just did this again today!
I am so blessed.
Thank You Lord!!!

One thing that we are promised is that some day, 25 will also be common too. This is the parallel passage of 11:6.

Which is easier to memorize, the paraphrase or the actual Bible verses?

See how easy it would be for people to assume that the shortened misquote is the actual Bible verse?
Preachers say it.
Early memories of color books or mom's helping children see it.
The memes are saying it.
The 700 Club said it......while keeping the lion occupied with raw Sirloin.
Now that and other similar memories trump the Bible according to the New Agers who don't believe the Bible.
They go on a campaign to undermine our accurate Bible that in KJV happens also to be the biggest seller of any book in history.

I think you agree that there are thousands of reasons to trust the Bible. It took a gal like you with the courage to seek and to ask.
That will hopefully help all the others who also had that question but never got around to seeking and asking.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Matthew 7:7...

I was going to post this earlier, but got busy. I will post it here for you in case you want to listen. It's a faith builder about the witnesses to the resurrection of Christ.

Resurrection Witnesses

Hope you had a wonderful Easter.
📖🙂✝️...⚫

Thanks for this. I think those probably are good reasons why people think it's changed. I think they quote Amos 8:11 "...I will send a famine...of hearing the words of the LORD:" as a proof that God would allow for something like that to happen, but I don't think that's what it's talking about.

HealthAndHappiness · Apr 10, 2023

HopeinHim98 said:

I agree with you. There are a couple times that happened in the O.T., but today knowledge abounds and the word is published easily on the internet.

Those questions above were those I asked of myself in trying to find answers and understand those concepts. When I asked them, I hope it didn't come across like an interrogation. They were intended to help you understand my thought process as I came to the conclusion that the M.E. theory was not something that could change God's Word. That's one way I study new or unusual concepts.

It's good to be aware of those passages.
I can't see how a famine of the Word in the land could be used by them as a proof text.
Then again I was wondering earlier how the JWs justify their belief that Jesus didn't bodily arise from the dead the third day.

Flannery · Apr 10, 2023

One of the problems with a symbolist instead of a literalist interpretation of the Bible is that it leads to speculation in areas of religion very likely best left alone. I once lived about two blocks from an exciting cafe/bookstore that sold computer programming manuals and math books as well as hot breakfast and became interested in the connections and parallels between art and arithmetic in the field of computer graphics and animation. After reading some web pages form New York (which has museums of both modern art and modern science) I met a book club of quantum physics fans who introduced me to the history of the fourth dimension. They were really, really mystical, and I could tell that they fancied themselves metaphysicians at least, if not serious modern Bible scholars. The "fourth dimension" is open to interpretation, you can see it as just being your thought (as a philosopher) your soul (as a regular believer type who merely isn't an atheist) or even as "humans" (humanism thinks people are a dimension). But the most advanced members of the group who had the longest standing memberships saw it as the prophetic dimension. They's try to use the fourth dimension to time travel, via hypercube. It could get pretty fringy-quartz chrystalie around that bunch.

Shrooms_the_fun_guy · Apr 10, 2023

HealthAndHappiness said:

That's good that you questioned it. Too many people who I met simply believed some version of the Mandela Effect because an authority figure stated it with confidence.
I was thinking about debunking it this spring when there's enough interest to invest the hours of preparation to teach on the subject. I'll just explain a few points for now. Perhaps it will help.

When I heard this for the first time, I considered the source. It was a guy who was an unbeliever, but was into the Hebrew Roots movement mixed with some New Age. He convinced a friend that Satan has the power to change matter and to change every existing KJV Bible, Bernstein Bears books (or whatever they're called, as well as a lot of other things. The guy refused to refer to our Savior as Jesus. Although he didn't know a lick of Hebrew, the guy was very arrogant because he could speak a few Hebrew words from the 1800s. This was enough to impress his friends apparently. Unfortunately, one or two of his new friends were also my friends.

I have to ask myself, who has the power to change matter like the print on every book?
Who is all knowing and knows where every Bible is, or children's book?
Who has the power to change history?

Keep these in mind while we look at who they say has done all of this.....the Devil.
I will say that Satan is powerful, but he's not THAT powerful. Only God knows where every Bible is. Satan is not omniscient.
Only God can transform matter, such as the boy's lunch into feeding thousands of families. The only thing Satan is "good at" is taking a technology and perverting what God made. The devil will motivate people to culture a super cancer that spreads like fire and use it for evil.

God has no interest in changing His Words.
God probably care's nothing about a children's book and is not seen doing things that way. That would be a mockery of God.

Can Satan change the Bible?
Yes, I believe he can and has done that.
All the Bible versions cannot be correct..
They can't all be true.
However, there are many reasons why he cannot change God's preserved Holy Word.
God preserved it and will continue to do so forever.

" The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
Psalm 12:6-7

The folks that teach the Mandela Effect are giving far more credit to the devil for powers that he does not possess than they are to God for power to preserve His inspired words accurately.

What do they accomplish by teaching the M.E?
A:.
A. They give the devil the glory.
B. They undermine the faith of many.
C. They keep people from trusting the Lord, since they no longer trust His Word about Him.

None of this is a rebuke of you in any way.
I'm glad you asked the question.
Nobody can learn without asking questions or finding the truth on a subject.
It just sheds light on the teachers and their dark heresy, like the guy who misled my friends.
I will continue the second part right after dinner. 🍵🙂🍜

Shrooms_the_fun_guy · Apr 10, 2023

I am of the belief that the bible is Holy Spirit inspired and Satan is not able to change or manipulate the contents within it.
He may produce a similar copy to the bible like the Quran or Book of Mormon to confuse people.
If we start to second guess the bible, then we have nothing else to base our faith on.

2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness,

Rev 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Rev 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

birdie · Apr 10, 2023

Shrooms_the_fun_guy said:

Thanks Shroomsthefunguy. It is very common to find Christians who believe that the Bible is inspired by God and is 100 percent correct and true. I also believe this and I thank God for that, both that you believe that, and that I believe that, and that other Christians believe that. This is wonderful. What is considerably less common is to find persons who agree with God himself about the fact that the Bible is written in parable form. We read: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable " God's law, the words of his mouth mentioned here is the Bible. Here in Psalm 78 he tells us that this law and the words of his mouth is a parable.
We read about this again in Mark 4: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. " This again is letting us know that he is always speaking to people through the Bible in parable form. It seems he did not even speak without a parable. "But without a parable spake he not unto them" Hmmm. This again is talking about the Bible, the word: "And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. " To those whom God saves, he opens understanding. To the unsaved (those who are without), even though they encounter the words of the Bible, it is a parable that they do not understand. We read: "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. " Often, errors of interpretation stem from people reading the Bible literally, in a way that they do not understand. Strange doctrines of various groups and so forth, saying that this or that physical ritual must be done, or that this or that physical manifestation will take place. Will Jesus have a metal sword sticking out of his mouth at his return or is this really meaning that the word of God comes from him? Will dunking in physical water wash away our sins or will the word which God has spoken to us do so? is Israel be a political nation on a map, or is Israel all believers in Christ? Is the rock a rock, or is the rock Jesus? So on and so forth.

soberxp · Apr 10, 2023

I know the day and hour, cuz it has happened to me. Is there a third coming?

SACREDWARRIOR · Apr 10, 2023

Hello,
Scripture is to to read and understood in NATURAL, NORMAL CUSTOMARY LITERARY SENSE. In other words the language itself will tell you if it is a parable, allegory, etc...otherwise it is what it say and shoud be understood in that way.
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!
Clarence

HopeinHim98 · Apr 10, 2023

HealthAndHappiness said:

I agree with you. There are a couple times that happened in the O.T., but today knowledge abounds and the word is published easily on the internet.

Those questions above were those I asked of myself in trying to find answers and understand those concepts. When I asked them, I hope it didn't come across like an interrogation. They were intended to help you understand my thought process as I came to the conclusion that the M.E. theory was not something that could change God's Word. That's one way I study new or unusual concepts.

It's good to be aware of those passages.
I can't see how a famine of the Word in the land could be used by them as a proof text.
Then again I was wondering earlier how the JWs justify their belief that Jesus didn't bodily arise from the dead the third day.

That's how I took the questions, not as an interrogation.

Wow I didn't know JW's believe that. I did hear one say that it wasn't a literal 6 day creation, but millions of years.

notmyown · Apr 10, 2023

Magenta said:

i think it also depends on the type of Biblical literature. narrative, poetry, apocalyptic, etc.
good link!!

notmyown · Apr 10, 2023

Magenta said:

i'm not an artist, just someone who appreciates the fact some of you are. isn't it often the imperfections which add to the beauty?

notmyown · Apr 10, 2023

Shrooms_the_fun_guy said:

AMEN

HealthAndHappiness · Apr 10, 2023

Shrooms_the_fun_guy said:

I would agree. Satan always tries to corrupt what God has done with his cheap imposters and imitations.
It looks like you posted this in response to my own in your post just previously #49.

One of the points that I might have clarified more had I proofread it and posted before the time limit is this.

Satan can "change God's Word" like he did in the garden to Eve. He took God's statement and questioned it in a way that changed what He said, then disagreed with Him, basically calling God a liar.
The same thing has been done many times throughout history. In recent history, we see new versions of God's Word every year. They all differ to avoid copyright infringement. They all claim to be the Bible, God's Holy Word. I don't believe it. There are are a lot of cheap imitations. They do the same thing that the Mandela Effect theory claims, but with a different spin. Your original post quoting from Isaiah reminded me of the M.E. because of the many attacks that I and friends have heard on the Word. I think it needed addressed for many on here who have heard the same.

However, God did preserve His Word accurately and without corruption. You might get attacked by a couple of pastors who disagree on the forums for holding to that view, but that's OK. I'd much rather agree with those verses you just posted.
I appreciate them very much.

HealthAndHappiness · Apr 10, 2023

HopeinHim98 said:

I just read part of the book again before lunch and see that the northern tribes called Israel and the southern tribes Judah were warned of judgement. This was prophesy about the surrounding nations being judged, then those tribes of Israel and Judah being held more accountable for all that God gave them. Because they were given much, more was expected of them. They lapsed into many major sins, like idolatry, so God spoke of judgement that would include them being conquered and dispersed into the world. They would go from the place that God established His written Word and preaching through His prophets. The land they were given would be handed over to pagan conquest. Many believe that was fulfilled in 70 AD.

There was a remnant of believers who will be reestablished in the land after Christ returns.

Do you have any thoughts about that passage?

oyster67 · Apr 10, 2023

Reading the bible literally or figuratively... that is the question

"Figuratively" is just another way of saying that the Word of God is open to 10,000 different private interpretations.

2 Peter 1:20
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

Reading the bible literally or figuratively... that is the question

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