Real believers have a new identity in Christ. Embrace your new identity, and don't be labeled by accusers

[JamOn]

This kind of belief will put people on a slippery slope. There is absolutely no biblical basis for claiming that addictions are more powerful than the working of the Holy Spirit within genuine believers. The new creature in Christ is also expected to walk in newness of life. Which means walking away from all addictions.

ROMANS 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [NOTE: ADDICTIONS ARE SIMPLY LUSTS]
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

No one should be encouraged believe that even though they are a new creature in Christ, they can justify their old addictions.

And Paul had thorn in his side, alcohol and drugs alter the neurotransmitters in the Brain for the rest of their live these don’t heal they are damaged, this is a type thorn to some.

Some use the words former addict or recovered alcoholic there nothing wrong with saying that.

 

[JamOn]

people who go into a AA say first I am alcoholic but through continuous absence they can say a recovered alcholic. the label the author presented is only for those who first step into a AA meeting.

 

[JamOn]

 

[JamOn]

some would say withdrawals from alcohol is lust, hmm

 

[Magenta]

This kind of belief will put people on a slippery slope. There is absolutely no biblical basis for claiming that addictions are more powerful than the working of the Holy Spirit within genuine believers. The new creature in Christ is also expected to walk in newness of life. Which means walking away from all addictions.

No one should be encouraged believe that even though they are a new creature in Christ, they can justify their old addictions.

Who is trying to justify their old addictions? Looks like you have once again put yourself on the slippery slope of misrepresentation. Walking away from our old addictions does not mean we walk away from the rest of humanity who still flounder in their potentially fatal addictions. We go where people are looking for help, the same place where we found help, where people are seeking freedom from their addictions, and we tell them what helps (the solution = God and living by spiritual principles) and show them what freedom looks like.

 

[MattforJesus]

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jesus saved us but it seems as if our behavior has something to do with our identity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Jesus saved us but it seems as if our behavior has something to do with our identity.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:

from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Jesus saved us but it seems as if our behavior has something to do with our identity.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

And there is no excuse for a person that hates sin, and does not want sin, can abstain from sin by the Spirit, and God will not allow them to tempted above what they can handle, so they will be tempted less than the world, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

Jesus saved us but it seems as if our behavior has something to do with our identity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity(they would not let go of the flesh, but held unto sin and believed they were still right with God).

Am I missing something despite all these scriptures that we can hold unto sin but it does not affect our identity in Christ.

Jesus saved us but it seems as if our behavior has something to do with our identity.

It appears that for the majority the old time preaching of morals, and to act Christlike is not as strong as it used to be years ago.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God(love pleasures of the flesh, sin, more than they love God);

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away(they will not allow the Spirit to lead them for they will not let go of the flesh, and those kind of people we are to turn away from them).

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But we should always try to help people struggling with sin, but this is speaking of people that hold unto sin and believe they are still right with God.

So people should not say that our behavior has nothing to do with our identity in Christ if those that hang unto sin, and will not let it go are not right with God, and we are to turn away from them.

But some people say we cannot abstain from sin although the Bible says a Spirit led life will not sin.

But all sin can be forgiven, but if we hold unto sin and believe we are alright with God how can we be forgiven, for the blood of Jesus cannot take away a sin that we hold on to.

But I do feel sorry for them that have addiction, and some may believe they have to do what is right to be right with God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Walking away from our old addictions does not mean we walk away from the rest of humanity who still flounder in their potentially fatal addictions.

But we are not talking about the rest of humanity (with which I agree). We are talking about those who possess the gift of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JamOn]

But we are not talking about the rest of humanity (with which I agree). We are talking about those who possess the gift of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Though some come to possess it in the most unusual ways or places, maybe recognizing they are a X alcoholic can lead to being a X sinner thus knowing God and his will for them.

 

[calibob]

I am attaching a discussion guide to this discussion which gives the Scriptural support for my main points. I won't refer to those Scriptures for the most part, because they are included in the discussion guide.

I used this discussion guide in a parachurch ministry I was involved with. This parachurch ministry dealt with a lot of addicts who professed Christianity.

Here's the basic thesis:

1. Believers are new creations in Christ. They are one with Him, joined in a legal and vital (life-giving) manner. They are joined in a spiritual sense.
2. This union with Christ defines their spiritual identity. Their identity is not defined by their behavior. Ontology (objective being which is their union with Christ) defines economy (their behavior), and not vice versa.
3. Economy (their behavior) needs to come in line with ontology (their being in union with Christ), but their economy does not define them.
4. Paul exhibited this understanding, particularly in Romans 6 and I Corinthians 6, but throughout his epistles.
5. Believers are obligated to "put on" Christ by behaving according to this identity, but the underlying foundation is their identity in Christ.
6. Christians should encourage one another to behave according to their identity in Christ.
7. Christians should never discourage a weaker brother dealing with a sin issue by claiming that their identity in Christ is subject to being withdrawn.
8. Inducing self-condemnation in a real believer displays an incredible ignorance and is damaging to their potential fruitfulness.

I operated in an environment where some of my fellow "teachers" were legalists and charismatics who would be more likely to claim that sin is a result of demonic possession, and the addicts were in need of deliverance, not solid biblical understanding. As a result, I was forced to study this topic of union with Christ, and associated identity in Christ, so I could help the addicts in my ministry with their problems.

Individuals being helped by this ministry were coming back, over and over again, with the same problems so I knew something was wrong.

The world handles things a different way. The world identifies the person by their behavior. Such-and-such is a drunk, a drug addict, homosexual, etcetera. He will never change. And if he manages to deal with that problem, he is still defined by it and is always subject to falling back into it. Then, he becomes the same drunk or drug addict or homosexual.

In fact, one major organization requires the alcoholic to proclaim his identity prior to the meetings.



He didn't say, either start behaving like Christ, or God is going to leave you. He said, in essence, Jesus lived the perfectly righteous life and suffered and died on the cross for you. He has given you a new identity. This includes righteousness, sonship, and an inheritance. Now, start living according to this new identity. Put on Jesus Christ. He is your new identity. The old man, in Adam, needs to die. Put him to death. I won't give up on you in the meantime, but you need to live according to this new identity and produce fruit through union with Jesus.

That is what Paul was about. He wasn't some legalistic, self-righteous professed Christian looking to accuse others or to threaten them with loss of salvation. He had a healthy sense of fear of God, but it didn't involve the legalism of some professing Christians today. He was convinced that once a person understood God's grace, that would change his behavior over time.

And, there are plenty of legalists who would love to drag you into self-condemnation and unfruitfulness. Beware of them. They may appear to be holy, but if they are not broken up about their own spiritual condition at times, I wouldn't trust them.

Know why? If someone doesn't have a proper understanding of God's grace, there's two possible directions they can go.

One is self condemnation. They are honest and realize they don't measure up to God's standards. This person will go through a cycle of realizing his shortcomings, then working hard (in the flesh) to deal with them, and falling again, and then trying to perform again, and doing pretty good for a while (which generates self-confidence) and then falling again, and feeling self condemned again.

I would trust that guy, if he was honest about his failures, but I would encourage him to understand union with Christ and identity in Christ better.

The other is the self righteous guy. He drag's God's standards down to a level he can achieve. I am not athletic but I have seen real athletes jumping hurdles. The self righteous guy jumps over three inch hurdles and claims he is a star athlete. He believes that he meets God's standards. He is fixated on the external, and not the internal desires of the heart, as well. He never realizes that he falls short of God's standards, and thus shouts at others that keeping the law (or whatever standards) isn't so hard. Well, his understanding of God's standards is so infantile that he actually thinks he is meeting them. Therefore, he is a miserable comforter for anyone who would be unwise enough to seek counsel from him.

I would not trust that guy. He isn't honest about his spiritual condition and is suppressing the knowledge of his sinfulness. He is living in darkness. I think God needs to humble that man and show him the reality of his spiritual condition.

The real balance is a man who understands union and identity in Christ. That's where it's at. This believer understands that he isn't meeting God's standards, but he has been joined with Jesus. This union defines his identity. He is loved by God because God's beloved son is now spiritually joined with him, like a man is joined with his wife, and the two become one. Not only that, but he produces fruit over the long term because of this union. Like sap flows through the vine into the branches, so does Jesus' likeness permeate the believer due to this union (see John 15).

This man doesn't have to blame his sins on demons and seek out demon deliverance. Nor does he have to dwell in self-condemnation, because there is no condemnation for those in Jesus (Romans 8:1). However, he knows he needs to put on Christ, like he puts on his clothing in the morning. There is the identity aspect of union with Christ, but then there is also the fact that the union changes us over time (see 2 Cor 3, especially the last few verses). And, this happens through God's transforming power, not by the flesh.

Anyways, these are the most important lessons I learned through parachurch ministry. To be honest, I didn't understand a lot of things until I started trying to serve others in this way. I am glad God gave me something worthwhile to do for a while, because I believe in trying to serve others, you end up learning yourself.

I hope this is worthwhile to someone. Understanding these things has been important to me.

.

It seems to me that people misunderstand words like drunkard and alcoholic as having the same meaning. They do not mean the same things! Choosing to get drunk is a willful act that often leads to the disease of alcoholism. Alcoholics can certainly choose to stop being drunkards but once the disease has progressed form acute drunkenness' to chronic alcoholism alcoholics can no longer safely drink again.

This is a baffling problem especially within a society that encourages the use of alcoholic beverages for celebrations like holiday festivities, sporting events, wedding receptions, birthdays even funeral receptions etc.

Identifying ones self as an alcoholic or addict is also humbling to us that can and do for the benefit of those that are still struggling against the illnesses. The substances trigger a phenomena of craving that have escaped the medical professionals, loved ones, preachers and judges for centuries. It was discovered by a Christian society called the Oxford Group that by admitting and identifying the most obvious symptom which is lack of ability to practice moderation. And by Not making room for it in our lives any more that the incomprehensible and pitiful demoralization of the diseases can be stopped. Permanently.

The process of identification goes back to Paul saying,"1 Corinthians 9:22 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

It's an admission that I am no better than you but I'm sober and you can be too! If you want to debate whether Alcoholism is a disease or not, please take it up with the AMA or APA. I am not a doctor. I believe the true reason why recovery attempts so often fail is the inability or unwillingness to be totally honest with ourselves about ourselves and making excuses for wanting a quick distraction or segway from what's really going on. That is; the inability to "let go and let God" help us deal with ourselves first!

Confession or testimony not only helps the speaker. I also and often unveils the eyes and unplugs the ears of the listener too.

 

[Magenta]

But we are not talking about the rest of humanity (with which I agree). We are talking about those who possess the gift of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I was talking about both. Those who have, share. It is called testifying And it encourages the lost, to seek.

 

[JamOn]

It seems do me that people misunderstand words like drunkard and alcoholic as having the same meaning. They do not mean the same things! Choosing to get drunk is a willful act that often leads to the disease of alcoholism. Alcoholics can certainly choose to stop being drunkards but once the disease has progressed form acute drunkenness' to chronic alcoholism alcoholics can no longer safely drink again.

This is a baffling problem especially within a society that encourages the use of alcoholic beverages for celebrations like holiday festivities, sporting events, wedding receptions, birthdays even funeral receptions etc.

Identifying ones self as an alcoholic or addict is also humbling to us that can and do for the benefit of those that are still struggling against the illnesses. The substances trigger a phenomena of craving that have escaped the medical professionals, loved ones, preachers and judges for centuries. It was discovered by a Christian society called the Oxford Group that by admitting and identifying the most obvious symptom which is lack of ability to practice moderation. And by Not making room for it in our lives any more that the incomprehensible and pitiful demoralization of the diseases can be stopped. Permanently.

The process of identification goes back to Paul saying,"1 Corinthians 9:22 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

It's an admission that I am no better than you but I'm sober and you can be too! If you want to debate whether Alcoholism is a disease or not, please take it up with the AMA or APA. I am not a doctor. I believe the true reason why recovery attempts so often fail is the inability or unwillingness to be totally honest with ourselves about ourselves and making excuses for wanting a quick distraction or segway from what's really going on. That is; the inability to "let go and let God" help us deal with ourselves first!

Confession or testimony not only helps the speaker. I also and often unveils the eyes and unplugs the ears of the listener too.

In Matthew 26:41 I think speaks of a truth rather a person is a new creation or not and that is while in this world in this body, the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. the human mind is truly weak even it’s ability to protect its neurotransmitters from being effected.

there’s some people who have stopped drinking alcohol clean and sober for many years yet still get the shakes from time to time, that is damage to the brain cause by alcohol abuse but few will suffer to that extreme but I’ve heard testimony’s of the shakes that don’t go away.

though I do agree most who fall off the wagon, do it like you said making excuses, most of the AA n NA call that stinking thinking

 

[calibob]

In Matthew 26:41 I think speaks of a truth rather a person is a new creation or not and that is while in this world in this body, the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. the human mind is truly weak even it’s ability to protect its neurotransmitters from being effected.

there’s some people who have stopped drinking alcohol clean and sober for many years yet still get the shakes from time to time, that is damage to the brain cause by alcohol abuse but few will suffer to that extreme but I’ve heard testimony’s of the shakes that don’t go away.

though I do agree most who fall off the wagon, do it like you said making excuses, most of the AA n NA call that stinking thinking

Thank you for sharing. Now todays meditation from Partners in Hope seem appropriate.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 3, 2019

GIVING UP THE LIE

Addicts tell lies. We tell ourselves we need our substance of choice in order to deal with the day. We believe the truth about our lives is too painful to face, that we’re different, and that our circumstances are too traumatic to overcome. We lie because we are embarrassed and ashamed. We lie because we are in denial about where our addiction has taken us. The bottom line is, we lie because it helps us remain in the familiar place where we are.

Don’t lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds. (Colossians 3:9 NLT)

One of the greatest challenges we face in recovery is giving up the lie we tell ourselves, that we need to lie. We have not changed much if we lie to get money from the government or lie because we’re ashamed of what we are now remembering and tell only part of the truth about our past.

Honest people can always feel secure but lying cheaters will be caught. Kind words are like a life-giving tree but lying words will crush your spirit. (Proverbs 10:9, 15:4 ERV)

Lies keep us hidden in isolation and shame. They cloud our ability to seek solutions that bring us real freedom. It’s time to choose truth and work hard on changing the environment of lying we’ve created. One truth at a time – even an acknowledgement that we just lied – will bring freedom and relief. Nothing brings peace and a sense of wellbeing more than living in the truth. Our recovery is a journey of developing trust in the truth that God’s principles are reliable, and that God is trustworthy. Each time we tell the truth, regardless of the inconvenience, we will deepen our experience of true freedom and become more stable because God is faithful to His word and will bless us.

But you must do this: Tell the truth to your neighbors. When you make decisions in your cities, be fair and do what is right. Do what brings peace. (Zechariah 8:16 ERV)

Prayer: Heavenly Father, I admit that lying often seems much easier than telling the truth. I want the life of freedom and peace You promise to those who live in the truth. Help me to notice today when I lie and give me courage to deal with it immediately. Amen

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I didn’t like you bashing the AA and NA organization they help people to get clean, and surely God has lead people to attend them.

I don't necessarily have an issue with them, just their theology of refusing to admit the believer is a new creation.

If they are dealing with heathens, I suppose they are about as good as any other carnal organization.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Isn't MacArthur still Dispensational, or did he switch from that too?

He's a "leaky dispensationalist".

I don't agree with his dispensationalism. As I read his study notes, I ignore the remarks coming from that presupposition.

Just because he's wrong on one topic doesn't mean he's wrong on everything.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

And you throw everyone else’s out the window, some of those who attend those meetings are Christians who are there to help others.

I'm not sure if this is the reason, but I suspect you have issues with me because I said I would not go to a three-time divorced individual for advice on marriage. If you are a previously divorced person, perhaps this is affecting your attitude toward me.

Anyways, I wouldn't go to a person who has been divorced, especially multiple times, for marital advice, and that's solid. An elder is to be a husband of one wife. So, God himself has set it forth as a standard. I realize there is grace and mercy for those who have failed in that area, though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes that is what they do, they are powerless over their addiction, that’s one of the sickness of addictions thinking its all under control when it’s far from the truth.

that’s a bad prayer, that’s sad that you condemn a prayer.

Addiction isn't a sickness. It's a sin. It is the sin of idolatry.

They are looking to some substance for their fulfillment, pleasure, purpose in life and serving it instead of God.

And, they are not powerless if they are a believer. If they are unbelievers then they are powerless.

By the way, here's a few articles on that topic.

 

[JamOn]

1

I don't necessarily have an issue with them, just their theology of refusing to admit the believer is a new creation.

If they are dealing with heathens, I suppose they are about as good as any other carnal organization.

I haven’t heard or read that the theology of AA is refusing to admit in a new creation. got any info on that?

kind of odd to call them heathens when they are there to quite being heathens seems counterproductive.

 

[JamOn]

I'm not sure if this is the reason, but I suspect you have issues with me because I said I would not go to a three-time divorced individual for advice on marriage. If you are a previously divorced person, perhaps this is affecting your attitude toward me.

Anyways, I wouldn't go to a person who has been divorced, especially multiple times, for marital advice, and that's solid. An elder is to be a husband of one wife. So, God himself has set it forth as a standard. I realize there is grace and mercy for those who have failed in that area, though.

no not really I just know God moves in mysterious ways and through unlikely candidates, nothing wrong listening to what a three time divorced person has to say, you don’t have take the advice. I think it’s good to let people express their thoughts and ideas.

 

[JamOn]

Addiction isn't a sickness. It's a sin. It is the sin of idolatry.

They are looking to some substance for their fulfillment, pleasure, purpose in life and serving it instead of God.

And, they are not powerless if they are a believer. If they are unbelievers then they are powerless.

By the way, here's a few articles on that topic.

That’s odd you think of the human body as some kind bulletproof Superman that taking drugs and alcohol cannot effect the body and become sick.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

1


I haven’t heard or read that the theology of AA is refusing to admit in a new creation. got any info on that?

kind of odd to call them heathens when they are there to quite being heathens seems counterproductive.

They are not a Christian organization. They don't specify that Jesus is Lord. They recognize some higher power but that's it. Therefore they are not Christians.