'Reductionist' versus 'Complete' view of the Gospel

[PennEd]

It benefits no one to suggest deathbed conversions are a reality. I understand the concept of a deathbed conversion gives many peace. However, the concept goes against the Word. The first thing being the requirement of true repentance. People are responsible to make a conscience decision to change the direction of their life and pursue God's ways. Repentance is more than being sorry for neglecting to pursue God when it was possible. (Isa 55:6-7)

God is a just God and is no respecter of persons; His commands pertain to everyone. Obedience to God's commands throughout the Bible have always been required to fulfill specific purposes. And believing in the necessity and submitting in obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ results in one's personal sins being remitted. It is not a popular idea, but the bible says it is so.

Jesus said that unless a person is born of water and Spirit they will not enter the kingdom. (John 3:3-5) Many refuse to accept that Jesus meant water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost; however, the word confirms what He meant in many scriptures. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

If the thief on the cross doesn’t constitute a deathbed conversion, then you’re right.

But of course that passage is in Scripture precisely to tell us that there are in fact deathbed conversions.

 

[Wansvic]

I tried to convince a family to fill up the bathtub for a man with cancer. They opted for a kind of sprinkling-- a drop-- later, but I do not even know if he was actually conscious by that time, just too far gone.

We do not know if we will recover from illness or not, no matter what the doctor says. Someone could repent on his deathbed. It may be less 'noble' in some ways.

I seem to recall church leaders having a policies or opinions against appointing priests/elders who had converted in such situations and recovered in the first centuries of Christianity.

It just concerns me that people will think they can put off seeking God until they are on their deathbed.

 

[Wansvic]

If the thief on the cross doesn’t constitute a deathbed conversion, then you’re right.

But of course that passage is in Scripture precisely to tell us that there are in fact deathbed conversions.

The thief died prior to God's command that NT believers must believe and submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. The NT Spiritual rebirth only became a reality after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.. Jesus prophesied this truth in Luke 24:47.

 

[Snacks]

The thief died prior to God's command that NT believers must believe and submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. The NT Spiritual rebirth only became a reality after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.. Jesus prophesied this truth in Luke 24:47.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart blessed that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It just concerns me that people will think they can put off seeking God until they are on their deathbed.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

 

[shittim]

He was speaking to the disciples.

 

[presidente]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart blessed that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This takes us back to the issue of reductionism and completeness. Paul said this in a letter where he had already discussed numerous topics including Jesus being Christ, Christ's death as a propitiation, forgiveness of sin, baptism into Christ and partaking of the resurrection and many other topics. These verses you quote are followed by further commentary such as 'how shall they believe on him of home they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher....have not all obeyed the Gospel...'Lord Who hath believed our report...' That latter quote is from Isaiah 53, a passage about the suffering Servant, a Messianic prophecy.

So the issue is can someone just believe that a Man named Jesus rose from the dead and call Him Lord and believe unto righteousness? Or does believing unto righteous entail having some knowledge of Who Jesus is--so that it can be believed. Does confessing Lordship mean just saying the words? Does one have to believe that Jesus is the Messiah to be saved, or is a different or lesser view of 'lordship' allowed? I have heard of someone preaching to Hindus that Jesus was another incarnation of Krishna. If a Hindu believes Jesus rose from the dead, but believes that He was one of many Hindu gods and puts a crucifix on the shelf next to the other idols in his shrine, is he saved? Is his confession of Jesus being 'Lord' the same thing Paul is talking about here. Is his doctrine sufficient to enable him to believing 'unto righteousness'?

And what of the later gnostics who might confess that Jesus died and rose again, but they actually believe that Jesus' spirit alone rose but that His body was still dead? What about the ones who thought 'Christ' as a Spirit all along that rested upon a man named Jesus for a time, and appeared to the disciples after the resurrection. Shouldn't we consider other scriptures?

Consider
I John 4:2

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[presidente]

It just concerns me that people will think they can put off seeking God until they are on their deathbed.

A lot of people who find grace and mercy from God do not deserve it.

And 'a lot of people' goes far beyond and understatement.

 

[Snacks]

This takes us back to the issue of reductionism and completeness. Paul said this in a letter where he had already discussed numerous topics including Jesus being Christ, Christ's death as a propitiation, forgiveness of sin, baptism into Christ and partaking of the resurrection and many other topics. These verses you quote are followed by further commentary such as 'how shall they believe on him of home they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher....have not all obeyed the Gospel...'Lord Who hath believed our report...' That latter quote is from Isaiah 53, a passage about the suffering Servant, a Messianic prophecy.

So the issue is can someone just believe that a Man named Jesus rose from the dead and call Him Lord and believe unto righteousness? Or does believing unto righteous entail having some knowledge of Who Jesus is--so that it can be believed. Does confessing Lordship mean just saying the words? Does one have to believe that Jesus is the Messiah to be saved, or is a different or lesser view of 'lordship' allowed? I have heard of someone preaching to Hindus that Jesus was another incarnation of Krishna. If a Hindu believes Jesus rose from the dead, but believes that He was one of many Hindu gods and puts a crucifix on the shelf next to the other idols in his shrine, is he saved? Is his confession of Jesus being 'Lord' the same thing Paul is talking about here. Is his doctrine sufficient to enable him to believing 'unto righteousness'?

And what of the later gnostics who might confess that Jesus died and rose again, but they actually believe that Jesus' spirit alone rose but that His body was still dead? What about the ones who thought 'Christ' as a Spirit all along that rested upon a man named Jesus for a time, and appeared to the disciples after the resurrection. Shouldn't we consider other scriptures?

Consider
I John 4:2

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I appreciate you sharing as much as you have. I always revert to the simplicity of Scripture. Jesus didn’t teach us to have the faith of the intelligentsia but rather He taught us to have the faith of a child.

My faith is in Him, and not anything I have done, including being baptized. I’m not suggesting your faith is not in Jesus, I know it is, I’m just saying we see things differently regarding baptism. But again, I thank you for sharing as you have.

 

[Wansvic]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart blessed that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul was addressing those who were already born again. He explained what occurred when they were obedient to the command to be baptized prior to making the statement you reference.

Believing in Jesus and His resurrection, and confessing Jesus to a lost and dying world will result in one being saved. Salvation is a progression. Paul cautioned that everyone is to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. (Php. 2:12)

 

[Wansvic]

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

God's Word does not contradict itself. Those who are obedient will acquire their spiritual rebirth as initially stated in Acts 2:38. Those who have been born again have God's ear. (John 9:31) Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him. (Heb 5:9)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God's Word does not contradict itself. Those who are obedient will acquire their spiritual rebirth as initially stated in Acts 2:38. Those who have been born again have God's ear. (John 9:31) Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him. (Heb 5:9)

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

 

[Snacks]

Paul was addressing those who were already born again. He explained what occurred when they were obedient to the command to be baptized prior to making the statement you reference.

Believing in Jesus and His resurrection, and confessing Jesus to a lost and dying world will result in one being saved. Salvation is a progression. Paul cautioned that everyone is to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. (Php. 2:12)

Are you saying you believe in works salvation?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Are you saying you believe in works salvation?

Just so you know, I've been at this site for nearly a year and have never seen a single person change their position.

 

[Wansvic]

A lot of people who find grace and mercy from God do not deserve it.

And 'a lot of people' goes far beyond and understatement.

I agree God is merciful; however, He is also just. And as such does not contradict Himself. The Word states that no one that remains in sin can enter Heaven. So obedience to water baptism is not optional. Jesus said everyone will be judged by the Word.

 

[Wansvic]

I appreciate you sharing as much as you have. I always revert to the simplicity of Scripture. Jesus didn’t teach us to have the faith of the intelligentsia but rather He taught us to have the faith of a child.

My faith is in Him, and not anything I have done, including being baptized. I’m not suggesting your faith is not in Jesus, I know it is, I’m just saying we see things differently regarding baptism. But again, I thank you for sharing as you have.

What Peter stated about water baptism on the Day of Pentecost was prompted by Jesus. (Acts 1:1-2) Receiving remission of one's sin is the result of trusting that what Peter said was true and being obedient to the command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is also seen as necessary according to what Jesus said in John 12:48: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Wansvic]

Are you saying you believe in works salvation?

I am saying I trust what the Word says is true. Peter commanded everyone to submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38) And, Ananias told the Apostle Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

Consider all detailed conversion experiences included the need to be water baptized in Jesus' name as well. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) No one was exempt from obeying the command.

 

[Wansvic]

Just so you know, I've been at this site for nearly a year and have never seen a single person change their position.

It is important to trust in what the Word says. Everyone's eternal life depends upon it. The world may change its view, but God remains the same.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It is important to trust in what the Word says.

Amen.

"And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."—Matthew 15:9

 

[Wansvic]

I appreciate you sharing as much as you have. I always revert to the simplicity of Scripture. Jesus didn’t teach us to have the faith of the intelligentsia but rather He taught us to have the faith of a child.

My faith is in Him, and not anything I have done, including being baptized. I’m not suggesting your faith is not in Jesus, I know it is, I’m just saying we see things differently regarding baptism. But again, I thank you for sharing as you have.

I think it's important to point out that accepting what is stated in Acts 2:38 about sins being remitted in water baptism and acting in obedience to it is having the faith of a child.