REFORMED THEOLOGY CRITICS - BE CONSISTENT AND DON'T LISTEN TO REFORMED TEACHERS

[RexCA]

OK then, name the non-reformed theologians of historical relevance.

St. Gregory the Great
St. Ambrose of Milan
St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Jerome
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. John Chrysostom
St. Basil the Great
St. Gregory of Nazianzus
St. Athanasius of Alexandria
St. Bonaventure
St. Anselm of Canterbury
St. Isidore of Seville
St. Peter Chrysologus
St. Leo the Great
St. Peter Damian
St. Bernard of Clairvaux

 

[RexCA]

I mean in a way though speaking of cults John Calvin's Geneva was the blue print of Christian based cults he basically saw himself as a reformed pope in a way and members of the community that spoke against certain theologies of the community were either exiled or killed

 

[RamahDesjardin]

I guess it all depends on how cult is defined. And historical significance.

 

[RexCA]

I guess it all depends on how cult is defined. And historical significance.

I agree and I don't think having a leader in that sense screams cult right away nor does having a community but shunning and isolation in the way that Calvin's Geneva did to people who questioned him is probably the definition of a cult these are things that modern cults that take after Christianity do such as JWs Mormons etc

 

[trofimus]

St. Gregory the Great
St. Ambrose of Milan
St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Jerome
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. John Chrysostom
St. Basil the Great
St. Gregory of Nazianzus
St. Athanasius of Alexandria
St. Bonaventure
St. Anselm of Canterbury
St. Isidore of Seville
St. Peter Chrysologus
St. Leo the Great
St. Peter Damian
St. Bernard of Clairvaux

Most of them if not all were living before reformation, so we cannot know if they would be reformed or not. The did not have this choice in their times.

 

[trofimus]

ok first off Jan Hus was not reformed in the modern sense such a thing didn't exist yet neither was Martin Luther Luther would have been a lapsed Catholic somewhere in the middle of modern Catholicism and modern conservative Lutheranism Hus would be more along the lines of Lutheranism as well if by Leibniz you mean Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz he most definitely was not a reformed Christian again I believe he grew up in Lutheranism but he was a pantheist or deist later in life

Jan Hus was a reformator. So.. really there is no problem with calling him "reformed". Same with Luther.

Leibniz was a lutheran of Augsburg confession, so, again, protestant reformation was his branch of Christianity. He wast not pantheist nor deist.

 

[Marano]

I guess it all depends on how cult is defined. And historical significance.

Some people would have you believe all reformed folks are part of a cult and reformed theology is heresy...
Yet I don't see any reformed people saying arminians are herectics who are headed straight to hell.

 

[RexCA]

Most of them if not all were living before reformation, so we cannot know if they would be reformed or not. The did not have this choice in their times.

we can still no they have writings that are still in tact that are very clear as to what Christianity they subscribe to and believe and it isn't anything near reformed or even protestant Christianity

 

[preacher4truth]

St. Gregory the Great
St. Ambrose of Milan
St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Jerome
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. John Chrysostom
St. Basil the Great
St. Gregory of Nazianzus
St. Athanasius of Alexandria
St. Bonaventure
St. Anselm of Canterbury
St. Isidore of Seville
St. Peter Chrysologus
St. Leo the Great
St. Peter Damian
St. Bernard of Clairvaux

The list doesn't work as per what trofimus noted.

Now, would you call these more or less "anti-Calvinist" (doctrinally speaking, I'm full aware that Calvin wasn't their contemporary) in their teachings, thus your saying they are "non-Reformed"?

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree and I don't think having a leader in that sense screams cult right away nor does having a community but shunning and isolation in the way that Calvin's Geneva did to people who questioned him is probably the definition of a cult these are things that modern cults that take after Christianity do such as JWs Mormons etc

Huge straw man concerning John Calvin.

 

[trofimus]

we can still no they have writings that are still in tact that are very clear as to what Christianity they subscribe to and believe and it isn't anything near reformed or even protestant Christianity

And sincerelly, many of those names are not "great" anywhere outside of the RCC.

Augustin is, Athanasius is and maybe some others.

Augustin, for example, was a main source of teaching (except of the Bible) for reformers, so ...

 

[RexCA]

The list doesn't work as per what trofimus noted.

Now, would you call these more or less "anti-Calvinist" (doctrinally speaking, I'm full aware that Calvin wasn't their contemporary) in their teachings, thus your saying they are "non-Reformed"?

what I'm saying is that the time and place of when these guys lived is irrelevant there were still "Christian" sects that were not the mainstream such as the Gnostics, Arians, Carthaginians, Motanists etc these people all had similar if not the same foundational views of what Christianity is that mirrors modern Catholicism which in doctrine is almost a 180 from Calvinisms 5 points as well as the 5 points of the reformation

 

[RexCA]

And sincerelly, many of those names are not "great" anywhere outside of the RCC.

Augustin is, Athanasius is and maybe some others.

Augustin, for example, was a main source of teaching (except of the Bible) for reformers, so ...

the reformation took after St. Augustine because his teachings was the main philosophy of the Augustinian order which is where Luther was a part of not because he himself was a "proto protestant" in fact Calvin's ideas on predestination and such are far more extreme than anything Augustine wrote himself Augustine never wrote about total depravity or double predestination he claimed man has fallen because of Adam's original sin which puts humanity in a fallen state on predestination he wrote that God wills good and the saints are destined for heaven not that God wills evil

 

[preacher4truth]

what I'm saying is that the time and place of when these guys lived is irrelevant

I know what you're saying and your objective, but the time they lived was relevant concerning the topic at hand. Therefore your list is disingenuous. What I'm saying is the time was relevant.

there were still "Christian" sects that were not the mainstream such as the Gnostics, Arians, Carthaginians, Motanists etc these people all had similar if not the same foundational views of what Christianity is that mirrors modern Catholicism which in doctrine is almost a 180 from Calvinisms 5 points as well as the 5 points of the reformation

The above is another huge straw man argument and feeble attempt to bolster said argument.

 

[trofimus]

the reformation took after St. Augustine because his teachings was the main philosophy of the Augustinian order which is where Luther was a part of not because he himself was a "proto protestant" in fact Calvin's ideas on predestination and such are far more extreme than anything Augustine wrote himself Augustine never wrote about total depravity or double predestination he claimed man has fallen because of Adam's original sin which puts humanity in a fallen state on predestination he wrote that God wills good and the saints are destined for heaven not that God wills evil

Actually, if you read "On the mercy and free choice making" by Augustin, you can see how close to reformation he was.

The RCC later changed its view on this, but Augustin is the proof that "reformed ideas" if we can call it so, were present in the old catholic church, changed later and restored again by the reformation.

 

[preacher4truth]

St. Gregory the Great
St. Ambrose of Milan
St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Jerome
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. John Chrysostom
St. Basil the Great
St. Gregory of Nazianzus
St. Athanasius of Alexandria
St. Bonaventure
St. Anselm of Canterbury
St. Isidore of Seville
St. Peter Chrysologus
St. Leo the Great
St. Peter Damian
St. Bernard of Clairvaux

You need a new list. Try adding some christian theologians, not catholics?

I'll give a pass to Augustine, Chrysostom for influence, and Athanasius. Try some that don't have the catholic "St." designation. Do you know of any?

 

[RexCA]

I know what you're saying and your objective, but the time they lived was relevant concerning the topic at hand. Therefore your list is disingenuous. What I'm saying is the time was relevant.



The above is another huge straw man argument and feeble attempt to bolster said argument.

how is this a straw man argument all I'm trying to say shouldn't it be ring as rather peculiar that none of the church fathers taught anything that is even in the foundations of protestant Christianity essentially shouldn't the fact that none of the early saints had these views raise a giant red flag regarding Calvinism

 

[preacher4truth]

how is this a straw man argument all I'm trying to say shouldn't it be ring as rather peculiar that none of the church fathers taught anything that is even in the foundations of protestant Christianity essentially shouldn't the fact that none of the early saints had these views raise a giant red flag regarding Calvinism

Sigh...your statement is utterly false, every word, and therefore isn't even worth taking seriously.

 

[trofimus]

Actually, if you read "On the mercy and free choice making" by Augustin, you can see how close to reformation he was.

The RCC later changed its view on this, but Augustin is the proof that "reformed ideas" if we can call it so, were present in the old catholic church, changed later and restored again by the reformation.

Correction, I translated the title wrong.

The right English title is: "Augustine: On the Free Choice of the Will, On Grace and Free Choice, and Other Writings"

 

[RexCA]

Actually, if you read "On the mercy and free choice making" by Augustin, you can see how close to reformation he was.

The RCC later changed its view on this, but Augustin is the proof that "reformed ideas" if we can call it so, were present in the old catholic church, changed later and restored again by the reformation.

simply not true with the exceptions of about 4 of them they are all recognized all valid by not only the Catholic Church but also the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches in fact most liturgical protestant churches(Anglicans and Lutherans) commemorate the names I listed as well as every single one I listed lived before the 16th century