Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'd like to ask your opinion on something EG as it seems we may have grown up in the same kind of church enviroment.
Some say, you can't be saved/a Chrtistian unless you understand the Gospel of grace/live it out in your life.
As a child I put my hand up at that church to become a Christian. I believed Jesus died for my sins and I repented and asked him into my life as Lord and Saviour. I immediately knew I had to live according to what God desired(which when I look back had to be His good and Holy laws) i was convicted in my heart of this

A catholic on anolther website startled me a few months ago, this is what he said.

We earnestly strive not to sin, when we do, we ask forgiveness of our sin(I know he did it through a priest, but not important as to the point here) we are then forgiven, and for a time we are in a state of sinlessness. We strive to remain in this state and not to sin, but inevitably the sin returns, we must then seek forgiveness for the sin, or we are in danger of losing our salvation and ending up in hell. We are forgiven, and the process starts again.
That is exactly how I viewed it in the fundamentalist biblie believing church of my youth. Yet I was sincere, and wanted so much to please God and not sin/live as he wanted me to. I had accepted Christ into my life, under the truth of scripture/the Gospel, but then in effect lived under law

This is my question. Was I unsaved at that time due to me not
understanding the Gosepl of Grace? If I had of died, before I knew Grace, would I have gone to hell? Or could I have been saved, and gone to Heaven(at the resurrection of the dead)
Only God knows. I would never judge anyone's salvation.

I was taught God gives you eternal life. Just that if you sinned, you must not be saved. so of course I always questioned it. (i still do from time to time, but satan loves to do this)

The problem is we sin all the time and probably do not know it, especially as babes in Christ. It is not until we mature that we (as Paul) figure out how truly wretched we are.

As I say over and over, people that preach that crap do not realise the sin they have, or they would never preach the stuff they do
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
take your pick

2 cor 1:22 He (God) Who has sealed us and has GIVEN us the SPIRIT in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, By whom you WERE SEALED until the DAY OF REDEMPTION

I misread the question. Why would she ask this? no one i know of teaches this!!
 
C

cfultz3

Guest

Oh, I did not see that. why would she ask such a question? who teaches this??
I would not want to speak for her, but she was replying to Mark about the Spirit only indwelling the children of God.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Only God knows. I would never judge anyone's salvation.

I was taught God gives you eternal life. Just that if you sinned, you must not be saved. so of course I always questioned it. (i still do from time to time, but satan loves to do this)

The problem is we sin all the time and probably do not know it, especially as babes in Christ. It is not until we mature that we (as Paul) figure out how truly wretched we are.

As I say over and over, people that preach that crap do not realise the sin they have, or they would never preach the stuff they do
Thanks for your reply. I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, I have asked others the same question.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I'd like to ask your opinion on something EG as it seems we may have grown up in the same kind of church enviroment.
Some say, you can't be saved/a Chrtistian unless you understand the Gospel of grace/live it out in your life.
As a child I put my hand up at that church to become a Christian. I believed Jesus died for my sins and I repented and asked him into my life as Lord and Saviour. I immediately knew I had to live according to what God desired(which when I look back had to be His good and Holy laws) i was convicted in my heart of this

A catholic on anolther website startled me a few months ago, this is what he said.

We earnestly strive not to sin, when we do, we ask forgiveness of our sin(I know he did it through a priest, but not important as to the point here) we are then forgiven, and for a time we are in a state of sinlessness. We strive to remain in this state and not to sin, but inevitably the sin returns, we must then seek forgiveness for the sin, or we are in danger of losing our salvation and ending up in hell. We are forgiven, and the process starts again.
That is exactly how I viewed it in the fundamentalist biblie believing church of my youth. Yet I was sincere, and wanted so much to please God and not sin/live as he wanted me to. I had accepted Christ into my life, under the truth of scripture/the Gospel, but then in effect lived under law

This is my question. Was I unsaved at that time due to me not
understanding the Gosepl of Grace? If I had of died, before I knew Grace, would I have gone to hell? Or could I have been saved, and gone to Heaven(at the resurrection of the dead)
A broken and contrite heart the Lord loves. Its when your proud and selfrighteous that your in great peril.
I think you were saved, because you were in submission. He knows it takes time to grow in grace and knowledge.
Little sheepies are cared for.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I would not want to speak for her, but she was replying to Mark about the Spirit only indwelling the children of God.

which is why I figured she asked for prove they indwell them eternally. And not an unbeliever.. I still do not comprehend her question. or see the context for it being asked the way it did..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thanks for your reply. I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, I have asked others the same question.
I did not think I was on the spot. Just seen it both ways, Some I would say yeah they were saved, some I would doubt.. it depends on situation. and even the ones I doubt, They may be saved,, so I would not judge them. Only God knows their heart./
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Would either you or Eternally-grateful show me passages that say every unbeliever is indwelt by the Holy Spirit?


That's the point, they are not.

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
Rom8:9


You wrote:

The bible says repentance, which is turning away from sin and turning to God by faith, precedes salvation. It is wrought by the Holy Spirit so it's not upholding the law in one's own strength as you claimed, neither is it works of the law.

Paul says we are not in the realm of the flesh IF the Spirit lives in us. The Spirit will convict us of our sin, but only by Him dwelling IN us can we start to see sin decrease in our lives, not before. Therefore a person cannot cease sin, before God will accept them(Actually, according to the biblical definition of sin we all sin each and every day) And the biblical definition of sin is transgression of the law.

You also state:


rather he was telling believers that the Holy Spirit dwells in them thus they mustn't defile their bodies with sin, they must live a life of holiness.

What does the following mean, for it is speaking of a person who is a Christian, therefore the Holy Spirit dwells IN them

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:17&18
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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The sacrificial system was a type and shadow of how one is reconciled to God.

You say that "He paid the penalty" but that is YOU saying that, not the Bible.

You cannot find a single scripture in the Bible that says that Jesus "paid the sin wages that you earned."
You really don't know how to follow a pattern (Heb 8:5) to copy it, do you?

The sinner transfers his sin to the perfect animal.

The animal is slaughtered as a penalty for sin, and its blood applied.

The sinner is reconciled to God.

You don't have a clue what the Scriptures mean.

But Ro 3:25-26 couldn't be any clearer.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)


1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you don't even know it.
 
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Abiding

Guest
You forgot the word "never"
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Elin,

Like I said, all you have is pure rhetoric.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible which teaches that Jesus "paid the penalty you earned from sinning." Likewise there is no scripture in the Bible which teaches that your future sins are forgiven before you even commit them. All you can do is continue your rhetorical dance around these issues.

The Bible teaches that Jesus purchased you from dominion, not that He paid your penalty.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Redeemed - H1350גּאל - gâ'al
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative’s property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Purchased - G4046 - peripoieomai
Middle voice from G4012 and G4160; to make around oneself, that is, acquire (buy): - purchase.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co_7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Bought - G59 - agorazō
From G58; properly to go to market, that is, (by implication) to purchase; specifically to redeem: - buy, redeem.

Mat_20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Ransom - G487 - antilutron
From G473 and G3083; a redemption price: - ransom.



Jesus died on your behalf. Jesus did not die in your place.

If Jesus died in your place then you would not have to die with Him.

Jesus purchased you from the dominion of sin and thus rescued you from certain death.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The above does not happen under the Penal Substitution model for redemption is PURELY FORENSIC under the Penal Model. The body of sin is never destroyed under the Penal Model, the old man is never crucified under the Penal Model. Instead the convert comes to a NOTION of salvation (because they believe that a forensic legal transaction took place) yet their hearts remain defiled and they are still in bondage to ongoing sin.

You can believe in the Penal Model if you like and you can base the assurance of your salvation all you like. You will learn the truth at the judgement. The Penal model has only existed for 400 years and it was invented by the Reformers. It was an adaptation of the Catholic Bishop's Anselm's Satisfaction Model which emerged around the 11th century.

You care free to ignore history and you are free to ignore what the Bible actually states. You are free to call me a heretic who has no clue. You may be sincere in your belief but you are sincerely wrong.

There is no salvation in sin. The heart must be purified through repentance and faith and the conscience purged by the blood. If that does not happen, and it has most definitely not happened for someone who is still in bondage to the lusts of the flesh, then that person has not been redeemed.

Jesus came to redeem people from ALL INIQUITY. Jesus did not come to leave people WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

The professing Christian's who will be rejected at the judgment are those who never forsook their iniquity and thus remained its workers. I also bet that many of them with will have clung to the notion of Penal Substitution as the bedrock of their faith.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Elin,

Like I said, all you have is pure rhetoric.




You really don't know how to follow a pattern (Heb 8:5) to copy it, do you?


The sinner transfers his sin to the perfect animal.


The animal is slaughtered as a penalty for sin, and its blood applied.


The sinner is reconciled to God.


You don't have a clue what the Scriptures mean.


But Ro 3:25-26 couldn't be any clearer.


"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.


He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over


(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice


at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)




1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?


-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)


2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?


-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.


3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?


-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.


4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?


-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)


5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?


-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)


6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?


-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith


in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.


The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you don't even know it.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Satan is a master deceiver and he perverts the fundamentals of the faith. Thus one can still preach Christ and Christ crucified and yet be at complete odds with the actual truth.

Satan is a master deceiver and is not to be underestimated.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The religious system of Israel was thoroughly apostate and the people were deceived. The people scorned the truth back then as they scoffed at Jeremiah, Isaiah and others.

When Jesus came on the scene the religious system had been thoroughly corrupted. The religious people were the main persecutors of Jesus and His apostles. The early church was heavily persecuted by the religious establishment.

It is no different today. The truth is scorned this very day by those in the established religious system. The seminaries don't teach the truth. There is nothing new under the sun, the blind continue to lead the blind.

The Bible gives us all kinds of warnings about massive deception and masses of deceived people...

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Massive deception with multitudes beholden to the lie. Those who are deceived do not know it, they have absolutely no idea. Just like Israel who could not comprehend that God was going to actually judge them severely.

Paul understood deception and took it very seriously...

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


People foolishly look for some antichrist to rise up and are scared of some computer chip yet unbeknownst to them there are antichrists standing in the pulpits of the very churches they attend, antichrists who teach doctrines which excuse ongoing sinfulness.

All will be revealed at its proper time.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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No substitution?
How can you be redeemed without the righteousness of Jesus' life?
Was it a one time deal Skinski?
What of your secret sins - (those you don't know you are committing, or the good works you were destined to do
which you might be omitting)
So Jesus died for your sins and gave you a clean slate.
And the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit enables you to live righteously.
And if you fall you have an advocate with the Father(Jesus Christ the righteous).
Sounds little different than Calvinism/Luthernism.
Let's look at it.
We are dead in our trespasses and sins, God gives us a newness of life(wherein there is a change), and we strive to follow Him.
I see little difference in your theology and that of the reformers........unless you raise a standard(like a billboard) - judging
one's rightness against another's. Then I'm afraid it would descend into comparatism......phariseeism......spiritual despotism.....
If your aim is to spur people on to holiness, then I say it is good, even a most righteous endeavor. But if the consumation of your work is just to live Holier than the next, it will make good looking lives, but it won't stand the scrutiny of the refiner's fire.
The work must be inward, by the Holy Ghost. Yes, it is true, we cooperate with it, but the actual holiness is a work of the Lord. I can't tell you how many times God has saved me from tempestuous situations. I'm sure others would testify of the same.As for the righteousness of Christ, without His sacrifice no man could see God.
No amount of other righteous works are equivalent, nor could they ever be. - Does this mean we can sin that grace may abound?
- Of course not! The redeemed will not think in those terms, the redeemed are continually conformed into the image of Jesus Christ throughout their lives. This is sanctification - - - - -and this also is a work of the Lord......lest any person say - - - -"by my own power I have saved myself".
There are no co-redeemers in the kingdom of Heaven........only sheep.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin,

Like I said, all you have is pure rhetoric.
You really don't know how to follow a pattern (Heb 8:5) to copy it, do you?

We can mess with the words of God, but the patterns and pictures, not so much.

Your words cannot alter nor change the meaning of the physical pattern God gave for atonement, and presented in Ro 3:25-26.


"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)


1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you don't even know it.[/QUOTE]
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Easy looking on I know. Elin, though I agree with much ofwhat you have said, and believe you have put it well, you seem to stop atgiving the outline as it were of the Gospel Paul was given to preach. You don’tmove beyond that, and talk about Romans7&8 that I have noticed(I may havemissed posts of yours where you did so admittedly)
On another website a Calvanist was the same, he gave the outlineas have you of the basics of faith, and Christ being an atonement for our sin,but left it at that. I’d like to see you move on at some point to explain howthis Gospel of Paul’s results in sin not being a persons master for they arenot under law but under grace. I’d like to hear your views on a convert’s walkand how in practical terms they apply this faith and see much victory by it. Inother words, I’d like to see you go beyond the basics of faith and apply it to theChristian life, give practical demonstrations as it were of how this works outin a converts life to give them much victory over sin. To explain why the powerof sin is the law, and to emphasise the victory available through faith inChrist and the Spirit’s power
Skinski, although I agree with you that manygive a watered down message, you recite woodenly the scripture, almost as if it is a manual that can berobotically followed, as if we can be preprogrammed to obey, it isn’t like thatof course, oh that it were, but alas.
But your main problem that I can see, is that you simplycannot grasp the fundamental truth of Paul’s message. Only by a person knowingthey are accepted by God, through theirone and only righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ, can sin not be theirmaster. You have this idea that sin must cease before God will accept a person,a person must circumcise their own heart in effect to be accepted by God, butthat was the old covenant, not the new. Only if a person knows they are secure withGod through faith in Christ can they start moving to a place where sin will notbe their master. But in effect your Gospel says they can only be accepted byGod once they have ceased sin. It is a fatal flaw.
Truth is, if a person knows they are secure with God by faithin Christ, despite the sin that may have tightened itself so tightly aroundthem, they will, if they earnestly desire with all their heart to follow aftertheir Saviour see great results, that is a certainty, for their must be great power in the cross. But it all hinges on themknowing they are secure with God, solely by faith in Christ, they cannot knowthat with your Gospel I am afraid. And so, as a Godly American lady told me,half the sex addicts in the US have at one time or another been to ‘holiness’churches. It is not hard to understand why if you read Romans and know whatPaul was saying. So
youare not either, moving on in the Gospel of Grace and its outworking inpractical terms in the life of a convert. And I don’t believe you trulyunderstand, the underpinning of Grace, and why the convert can live by a righteousnessof faith in Christ, why that is not a license to sin

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thenhe adds:
‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’[SUP][c][/SUP]

Ifyou understood the above Skinsky, your message would be far nearer to theGospel of Grace I would say.
LikeI say, I know its easy to look on, and I have let God down much in my own life,but I hope my imperfections(or any of our imperfections come to that) do notpreclude me/us from giving what we believe is the Gospel truth
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Easy looking on I know. Elin, though I agree with much ofwhat you have said, and believe you have put it well, you seem to stop atgiving the outline as it were of the Gospel Paul was given to preach. You don’t move beyond that, and talk about Romans7&8 that I have noticed(I may havemissed posts of yours where you did so admittedly).
The obedience of the saved is another issue, and not the one I am dealing with.

I am dealing with the nature of Christ's atonement.