REFORMED?

[hornetguy]

Since I have had neither the time, nor the inclination to read 18 pages of "but YOU said this" "well, it was because YOU said that"...

Is the rejection of the papal system a part of "church autonomy", or church governance? Or did I misread your parameters on the change to the Reformation churches?

 

[Jackson123]

Because of a recent conversation I thought it might be interesting to post this thread.

Based on my understanding [or perhaps misunderstanding] of Church history I have come to recognize 4 major doctrinal distinctives that differentiate the denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings from those denominations founded on Reformation teachings.

I am not looking to offend anyone; I'm looking to confirm or correct my understanding [or lack thereof]!

1) Believer's baptism by immersion not required for Salvation
2) Eternal security of the believer
3) rejection of literal trans-substantiation
4) congregational government of the church

Those denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings include but are not limited to:

The Christian Church, The Baptists, Christian Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Mennonite, In Faith, & Mission Covenant.

I wonder if Lutheran believe that 4 item?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Out of Sandy Creek, we got the Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Conservative Baptists, Independent Baptists, etc.

The Southern Baptists have only recently been promoting Calvinism (I believe since Mohler took office), and not all of them are on that bandwagon. As to all the others you have listed, they generally reject Five Point Calvinism.

Please note what the American Baptist Association says: We believe that the suffering and death of Jesus Christ was substitutionary for all mankind and is efficacious only to those who believe (Isa. 53:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2).

Here's what the Independent Baptist Alliance believes (no mention of "the elect"): We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through his death on the cross as a representative, vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice; and, that our justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead (Acts 2:18-36; Rom. 3:24-25; 1 Peter 2:24; Eph. 1:7; 1 Peter 1:3-5)

 

[Bladerunner]

Reformed Baptists believe there are Reformed Baptists. Reformed people say there is no such thing.

I'm not trained historian, but this is my take on it from what I've read. Feel free to tweak my history if this is your area of study. Historically, early on in the Reformation that is, the Reformed group believed in salvation by faith but did not agree with Luther in consubstantiation-- Luther's belief that while the bread and wine became the body and blood like the RCC taught, that it was also still bread and wine. That was the historical difference between Lutheranism and Reformed early on, back when Zwingli was the key leader.

John Calvin then became the central Reformed leader and theologian. He emphasized the sovereignty of God. Some time after Calvin, the theology got packaged into the 'TULIP' acronymn to summarize Calvinist theology. TULIP doesn't address the issues of transubstantiation, consubstantiation or a spiritual presence in the eucharist, so are TULIP Lutheran's Reformed?

The Reformed groups also believe in infant baptism. Baptists don't, so the historical Reformed people may not accept Baptists as 'Reformed.' The first time I read 'Reformed Baptist', I was thinking 'huh?' and scratching my head. I'd never heard of that. Then I read something from a Reformed person online who wrote that the title 'Reformed Baptist' was rather recent. Is it just a couple of decades old? It refers to Baptists who believe in 'Reformed theology' in terms of soteriology, excluding doctrines related to water baptism, right? It seems to be a new title developed during this recent new Calvinist movement among Baptists and similar groups.

Please keep in mind there is a difference in religion and theology. There is a difference. Reformed religion I will not have anything to do with while reformed Theology, I agree with.

 

[presidente]

The Southern Baptists have only recently been promoting Calvinism (I believe since Mohler took office), and not all of them are on that bandwagon. As to all the others you have listed, they generally reject Five Point Calvinism.

Please note what the American Baptist Association says: We believe that the suffering and death of Jesus Christ was substitutionary for all mankind and is efficacious only to those who believe (Isa. 53:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2).

Here's what the Independent Baptist Alliance believes (no mention of "the elect"): We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through his death on the cross as a representative, vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice; and, that our justification is made sure by His literal, physical resurrection from the dead (Acts 2:18-36; Rom. 3:24-25; 1 Peter 2:24; Eph. 1:7; 1 Peter 1:3-5)

I read quotes from Sandy Creek that seemed to promote a four-point Calvinist perspective at the very least. I am not sure about the Limited Atonement part. I read that they were Calvinist and read certain quotes. They believed in anointing with oil for healing, too. Free Will Baptists have their historical roots at Sandy Creek Baptist, too.

I hear the congregation still exists, kind of small, in the middle of nowhere, kind of close to Greensboro, NC, though not meeting in the exact original location of the church building in the 1700's.

There was a Methodist revival at about the same time going across the same part of the country.

 

[MarcR]

The Moravians (who if I am not mistaken practice infant baptism) formed a separate group due to the influence of John Huss. Moravians were from Moravia, or Bohemiah. John Huss died in 1417. He was executed for teaching doctrines that Protestants would later teach about salvation. It is said that Huss said that they might kill this goose (this huss) but in 100 years they would have a swan that they could neither roast nor boil. Huss was burned at the stake. Luther took this prediction as a reference to himself. The Moravians got two bishops to appoint their bishop, and split from Rome. 'Bohemian' became a word that refers to someone who is nonconventional.

Centuries later, Moravian refugees would settle on Count Zinzendorf's property. He was ordained a Moravian bishop in the Lutheran church. The Moravian Brethren were Lutheran in a Lutheran land but I think they had a kind of inter-denominational fellowship that spanned countries.

The Anabaptist groups sprung up during the Reformation. Some of the early prominent groups took over cities, had inviduals who practiced polygamy, and one of them is said to have prophesied that the Turks would invade. After some of the violence of these early anabaptists, the peaceful anabaptists took the brunt of the persecution aimed at them by Reformers (like Calvin). Anabaptists were seen as dangerous anarchist types for a while.

There were a couple of Baptist groups that emerged in England around the same time. One was Calvinist and the other was not. One group was exiled to Germany or Holland. It is unclear whether they had contact with anabaptists, but both groups started teaching credo-baptism. The Baptists that went to the US were of the Calvinist variety.

Shubal Stearns was a member of a Congregational church who responded to George Whitfield's preaching. Later, he was baptized by a Baptist and started a church in North Carolina which was a kind of mother congregation for many of the Baptists in the US and around the world today, and many Baptist denominations and independent groups.

Huss alone would not have been responsible for the rejection of the doctrine of specific election, though he didn't teach it.

Menno Simons' teachings combined with those of Huss to form the Anabaptist movement and subsequently the denominations whose two main tenants are:

Believers baptism by immersion and the belief that the suffering and death of Jesus Christ was substitutionary for all mankind and is efficacious only to those who believe.