Religion v. Relationship Replaced of the Cross and the Resurrection- Have Evangelicals Forgotten the Gospel?

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preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#61
For the record, faith, or belief is the work of God, John 6:29, it is not the work of man. Therefore the accusation of @presidente at me is false, accusing me that I belief faith is a work (of man).

Nope. Faith is a work of God, not man, note Ephesians 1:19, John 6:29.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,091
1,754
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#63
Not at all.

What did you do to achieve salvation? Fill in the ____________________ .

I already know your answer: You believe you repented and believed, and, in doing so achieved ("received") "salvation", but you think it's not a reward, yet you base it on you doing _____________.

If it's based on what you did, it is not by grace, it is via merit.

You do not understand the Gospel, but that is the state of many: you've made, as well as many others, salvation a merited reward instead of grace in your ignorance of the Gospel.
I think i will ignore the sophistry and the derail.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,590
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61
#64
Stephen was a Christian before he prayed that. He also prayed for Jesus to receive His spirit. It does not say he 'prayed to receive Christ.'



Christ dwells in our hearts through faith. The Bible does not say that this happens by praying a prayer that Jesus come into our heart. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone praying such a prayer. Teaching that saying such a prayer is required for salvation is very unbiblical, since it adds a requirement for salvation which is not found in scripture. It would implicitly damn the apostles and the first generation of Christians. Were all Christians damned before Billy Graham started doing the sinner's prayer thing? The generation before him used decision cards, praying through, or shaking the preachers hand to signify a decision. We are talking about recent American methodologies here. Since it is just a little over a generation old, that's old enough for some people not to know its new.

Paul said, "....confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus." Once could do so in the form of a prayer, but if one makes a confession of his faith without it being in a prayer, it is still a confession. The Ethiopian eunuch (according to some manuscripts) said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." If that were a bad confession because he did not say, "God, I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God", why would it have been included?

You can say a confession of faith has to be done in the form of a prayer to be valid. I could say you have to make a confession of faith while tap dancing and balancing 50 plates on your head. Both would be adding doctrine not taught in scripture.

What about the new believers in Acts 2? Peter told them to repent and be baptized. They responded. Peter calls the salvation that occurs through baptism 'the answer of a good conscience toward God.' Were they not saved because they did not repeat a prayer? We have no reason to think that Peter or Paul told the crowds of converts that they preached to 'Repeat this prayer after me.' If such a prayer is required to be saved, why isn't there even an example of it in the Bible? And why do you have to use verses, like the ones above, that don't mention confessing faith in the form of a prayer to be saved.

This is one of the things that bothers me about some of the trends in modern evangelicalism. Your posts exemplify the problem. Preachers develop methods that are supposed to be in line with the Bible. But there are individuals who treat the methods as saving while losing sight of the actual Biblical doctrine.



It helps to actually read the whole chapter, or at least the verses under discussion.

Revelation 3
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Who were these words directed to? Look at verse 14 'the church of the Laodicians'. That is the context in which he says verse 20.

But if you argue that 'any man' means anyone-- or only unbelievers excluding the actual church he is addressing-- then the verse does not say that the way you do so is that you must pray a prayer to ask Jesus into your heart. Why wouldn't it be by believing the Gospel, confessing Christ as Lord, being baptized-- the stuff actually found in the Bible.

One can confess Jesus as Lord in a prayer, but one can do so outside of a prayer. The prayer part is superfluous to the Biblical teaching on confessing Jesus as Lord, though Christians should pray of course.

And now there are armies of preachers going around having people pray things along the lines of asking Jesus into their hearts, into their lives, etc. without telling the audience Who Jesus is or that He rose from the dead. Some leave out the crucifixion and declare people saved for repeating the prayer, as if repeating a prayer saved them.

It's exalting pragmatic methodologies above Biblical doctrine and the actual gospel.
I agree with you in that what you criticise at this modern methods about asking the Lord to come into the lives without knowing what our Lord did for him.
But is the prayer( the talking to God) not the normal way how someone response to the call of God? How else I should response to the fact that he come into my life? On the other side Jesus knows if our confession is true ore only and repeating of something others said in front of. Without question, your points met the problem in todays modern churches. And it seems to me almost like to be modern. And others in opposit expect an holy life before someone can come to Christ.
And filling the christian life with man made rules over rules.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#65
No I have not. I am writing in English and you are engaging in sophistry to accuse me of such derail the topic.

You said it is impossible for men to repent. I quoted a verse where Jesus said certain men repented.

You are the one talking about believing being a work. Just dial it down a bit and stop overanalyzing and believe what the Bible actually says without trying to turn everything into a 'work'.
you are dealing with hyper-Calvinism

it's a stain on Christianity

every thread will be turned into this kind of useless arguement...it isn't a debate and they don't want one

everything you say will be twisted and you will be told you know nothing about scripture etc etc
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#66
I have been to a number of evangelical churches over the years where it seems the 'formula' for evangelism in a lot of evangelical churches that do 'altar calls' and 'sinner's prayers':

- Do not tell the people who God is.
- Do not tell the people who Jesus is.
- ____Maybe____ mention the cross in passing without explaining what happened on it.
- Leave out the part about the resurrection.
- Tell people that Christianity is not a religion, that religion is a bad thing, and that it is a personal relationship with God.
- Have people repeat a prayer that mentions Jesus that does not mention Jesus dying on the cross or rising from the dead.
- Declare the people saved if they believed the prayer.

The prayer may have people ask Jesus into their hearts, 'accept Jesus' or something along those lines.

Praying to ask Jesus into your heart is not something I can find in the Bible. I cannot find where it says 'Christianity is not a religion.' 'Religion' became a bad thing among American evangelicals in my own life time. In old writings like those of the New England Puritans, it seems to be a near synonymn of the word 'Christianity.' Our Bible translations refer to it in James 1:27 which speaks of the one who exercises 'pure religon' as he who visits 'widows and fatherless in their afflication and keep himself unspotted from the world.'

The Bible speaks of knowing God and knowing Jesus (John 17) and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 13 blessing at the end.) But it does not teach that the way you get people to have a relationship with God is by telling them that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion.

Christ's death and resurrection are important parts of the gospel the apostles preached.

I Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
(KJV, emphasis in bold mine)

Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(KJV, emphasis in bold mine)

I have a theory that pastors, preachers, and one-on-one attempted evangelists are so used to hearing 'religion v. relationship' preaching that they do this without thinking whether it is Biblical. I also suspect that many of these people would tell you that you have to believing that Jesus died for your sins and rose again from the dead to be saved if you asked them, but that they aren't aware that they are leaving this out. They rely so heavily on the tradition of what they have heard, that they either aren't examining scripture or paying close attention to what they are leaving out.

If you point it out to them, sometimes they realize what they are doing. i would encourage all of you to do so.

I have even witnessed people who weirdly think the sinner's prayer ritual is doctrine. I heard a preacher say, "If you have not prayed that prayer, you are not a Christian." Were there no Christians before Billy Graham started doing this repeat-this-prayer thing in his evangelistic meetings?

Some of you may reply, "My pastor always preaches the cross and resurrection of Christ whenever he tries to win souls for Christ." Good for you. I've seen that, it just seems to be getting rarer. In my experience in the majority of altar calls or similar 'challenges' I have witnessed in the past decade or two in the US, the religion v. personal relationship thing is preached, the cross might be preached, and the resurrection is omitted.

I see an emphasis on the resurrection in Peter's and Paul's sermons through Acts, beginning in Acts 2. I also see the apostles exhorting people to be baptized and baptizing them, and I do not see them having people repeat prayers in scripture. I also see Jesus' command to baptize, and not a command to have people repeat prayers, in the passage known as 'The Great Commission'.

I suggest you point this out in person, by email, or telephone whenever you see a preacher or street-witnesser do this. What else can we do to help push evangelicalism back toward the gospel?
Paul got saved first.
Learned doctrine afterwards.

I dont know anyone that got saved by first understanding all the doctrine you require.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,091
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#67
Paul got saved first.
Learned doctrine afterwards.

I dont know anyone that got saved by first understanding all the doctrine you require.
Since Paul was a religious scholar, he knew a lot about doctrine before he came to faith. According to Paul's epistles, the fact that he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus was evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Two disciples who spoke to the risen Christ on the road to Emmaus commented on how the whole city knew what had happened to Jesus. Surely, Paul, who was persecuting Christians, knew that Jesus was crucified. As Jesus appeared to him, Paul/Saul called Jesus 'Lord.' Ananias called Jesus Lord before he baptized him. Saul of Tarsus immediately started preaching that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah/Christ. So how could we say he did not know the Gospel?

I am not talking about reading tomes of theology first. I am talking about this sort of thing:

I Corinthians 15

1Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

(KVJ, emphasis mine.)
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,091
1,754
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#68
Several years ago, I began to wonder what the next wave of evangelical evangelism would look like. I wondered if preachers would omit the cross and resurrection have people repeat prayers asking Jesus to be their best friend or if they would ask people to give Jesus an imaginary high five in the air.

Then I heard a prayer where the preacher asked the audience to ask Jesus to be their friend....best friend if I recall correctly... to be saved.

I have not seen the imaginary air high five thing. I hope I never do.