Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#41
All Israel (the nation) is not of Jacob/Israel (the elect=the church). You need to understand how to divide the nation of Israel, from Jacob/Israel=the church. God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:28.
Like, sometimes when the word says Israel, it's not really Israel but Israel. And other times it uses the word Israel when it truly means Israel and not Israel. And sometimes Jacob is used to point to the true Israel and not Israel. But sometimes Jacob is used not for Israel but for Israel.:unsure:
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#42
Deuteronomy 30:6
"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 10:14-16
"Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. "Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. "So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

Jeremiah 4:4
"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds."

The concept was found before the cross. God does not change. Never will :)
These Deuteronomy scriptures is not instructing them to get a new heart. Deut 10:15 God chose them (his elect) above all people, and in Ezek 11:19, he gave them a new heart.

Deut 10:16 is not telling them to circumcise their heart, but to circumcise the foreskin that is covering their new heart, so that they (in verse 12) Israel, not the nation of Israel, but Jacob/Israel=the elect=the church, can fear the Lord, to walk in his ways, and to love him, and to serve him with all their heart and with all their soul.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#43
All Israel (the nation) is not of Jacob/Israel (the elect=the church). You need to understand how to divide the nation of Israel, from Jacob/Israel=the church. God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:28.
You need to read what I am saying, I have understood the difference.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,181
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#44
Like, sometimes when the word says Israel, it's not really Israel but Israel. And other times it uses the word Israel when it truly means Israel and not Israel. And sometimes Jacob is used to point to the true Israel and not Israel. But sometimes Jacob is used not for Israel but for Israel.:unsure:
I can see that this is confusing to you, but if you do not separate the scriptures that use the word "Israel" in them, to refer either to "the nation of Israel" or to "Jacob as Israel the church" you will never be able to understand the full knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#45
I can see that this is confusing to you, but if you do not separate the scriptures that use the word "Israel" in them, to refer either to "the nation of Israel" or to "Jacob as Israel the church" you will never be able to understand the full knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus.
Not confusing, Israel is Israel and Jacob. The Church is the body of Christ and not Israel. Simple. Romans 9 does nothing to prove otherwise.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,181
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#47
Not confusing, Israel is Israel and Jacob. The Church is the body of Christ and not Israel. Simple. Romans 9 does nothing to prove otherwise.
God chose Jacob over Esau to show that his "election" might stand. That makes Jacob a representative of the elect. Jacob's name is no more called Jacob, but is called Israel. All of Israel (nation) is not of Israel (Jacob). If you cannot understand that, then, you do not understand who the elect are. Christ is king over his kingdom, which is his church,. The elect of God is his bride. which are all who have been regenerated.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#48
My 2c on this.
Circumcission - this is a covenant of God to Abraham
Circumcission of heart - a new covenant not in letters or in stone. But covenant in heart ( poetic).

Israel vs church.
Israel will remain Israel...
Early Jewish believers are from Israel.
The majority did not believed back then...they were PARTLY not all Blinded...
Israel believers continued to increase...but because they were PARTLY blinded...the gospel reached the gentiles...
The combination of both Jewish/Gentiles is the Church...
Gentiles are not Jewish and are not part of Israel.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#49
God chose Jacob over Esau to show that his "election" might stand. That makes Jacob a representative of the elect. Jacob's name is no more called Jacob, but is called Israel. All of Israel (nation) is not of Israel (Jacob). If you cannot understand that, then, you do not understand who the elect are. Christ is king over his kingdom, which is his church,. The elect of God is his bride. which are all who have been regenerated.
The principles of election are not based upon natural advantages. Not all the descendants of Jacob(Israel) are Israel. It's always based upon a promise of God. Ishmael was excluded from the promise God gave to Abraham. He is a type of the flesh. Isaac was chosen over Esau. He is the child of promise. God elected it that way. Election is never based upon human accomplishment. Jacob and Esau had the same father, but one had to be elected to carry out the promise of the seed. Election is God exercising his choice. God never elects anyone unto salvation. None.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#50
we are talking about physical Isreal and the promises given to them

Please Learn to tell the difference
Christ abolished physical Israel when he abolished circumcision. They were the unbelievers he removed from Israel. Today they are Jews or Israel only in the sense Islam is Islam or Catholicism is Catholicism.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#52
Paul contradicts Dispensationalism. It is not tied to historic Christianity.... and the truth does not change.

Paul did not believe in dispensations? The dispensing of truth?

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#53
Paul did not believe in dispensations? The dispensing of truth?

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Not as Dispensationalism teaches. Dispensationalism does not come from scripture. It comes from an imaginary gap in Daniel, and what would happen if such a gap existed.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#54
Christ abolished physical Israel when he abolished circumcision. They were the unbelievers he removed from Israel. Today they are Jews or Israel only in the sense Islam is Islam or Catholicism is Catholicism.
Rom 11:1-36 KJV 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#55
Rom 11:1-36 KJV 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
What's your point?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#58
Has God cast away his people?God forbid.
Here's how it works out according to Paul.
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

This is where you miss it.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#59
Here's how it works out according to Paul.
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

This is where you miss it.
Did I?
Has God cast away his people? God forbid....
Rom 11:26 KJV And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And so ALL ISRAEL...
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#60
Did I?
Has God cast away his people? God forbid....
Rom 11:26 KJV And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And so ALL ISRAEL...
Paul uses himself as proof God did not cast away his people.

“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” Romans 11:1 (KJV 1900)

He removed the wicked unbelievers as he said.

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)