Replacement Theory. Is the Church the new Israel??

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L

Lifelike

Guest
#1
#1
Romans 11:25.

Now I don't want you, my brothers, to start imagining things, and I must therefore share with you my knowledge of God's secret plan. It is this, that the partial insensibility which has come to Israel is only to last until the full number of the gentiles has been called in. Once this has happened, all Israel will be saved, as the Scripture says;

There shall come out of Zion the deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And this is My covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.

As far as the gospel goes, they are at present God's enemies - which is to your advantage. But as far as God's purpose in choosing is concerned, they are still beloved for their fathers' sakes. For once they are made, God does not withdraw His gifts or His callings.

AMEN!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2
#2
Lifelike said:
Romans 11:25.

Now I don't want you, my brothers, to start imagining things, and I must therefore share with you my knowledge of God's secret plan. It is this, that the partial insensibility which has come to Israel is only to last until the full number of the gentiles has been called in. Once this has happened, all Israel will be saved, as the Scripture says;

There shall come out of Zion the deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And this is My covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.

As far as the gospel goes, they are at present God's enemies - which is to your advantage. But as far as God's purpose in choosing is concerned, they are still beloved for their fathers' sakes. For once they are made, God does not withdraw His gifts or His callings.

AMEN!
Click to expand...

Take this with all the OT prophesies which show God will regather Israel from among the nations where they were dispersed, and make them a nation again. He will put them in their land, they will repent, and he will be there God. Amen and Amen
 
T

TruthGiver

Guest
#3
#3
You CANNOT just take all places from Bible and use them over and over and over again, even after they were historically fulfilled already (for example after the Babylonian captivity).
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#4
#4
TruthGiver said:
You CANNOT just take all places from Bible and use them over and over and over again, even after they were historically fulfilled already (for example after the Babylonian captivity).
Click to expand...

Oh!!! true, but they do it all the time.:cool:
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#5
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#5
The Church is what will prosper,and is the New Israel in the sense that it will remain forever,while this earth passes away.

But salvation is of the Jews,and it is really their Church,started by Jews,and the Gentiles were brought in to that Church.

The Church could be considered the New Israel,because it is Israel that will last forever,and the Gentiles were brought in to that Church.

When the Bible says that all Israel shall be saved,this is not talking spiritual,but physical Israel,as Israel is the kingdom on earth and all Gentile nations shall fall,during the millennial reign of Christ.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power(Acts 1:6-7).


11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished(Jeremiah 30:11).


All Israel shall be saved means the physical nation of Israel,as the kingdom is restored to them,and all Gentile kingdoms will be no more,in the millennial reign of Christ.


Salvation is of the Jews,and is their covenant with God,and the Church is the Jews Church,which moved from the Old Testament to the New Testament,and the Gentiles were brought in that covenant.


Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel,and had Jewish disciples,for the covenant is with the Jews,their Church,so the Church could be considered the New Israel,as far as a better covenant that lasts forever.


The covenant is not with the Gentiles,but they were brought in to the covenant with the Jews.


The covenant is with the Gentiles,if they accept the covenant that is with the Jews.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#6
#6
TruthGiver said:
You CANNOT just take all places from Bible and use them over and over and over again, even after they were historically fulfilled already (for example after the Babylonian captivity).
Click to expand...
but what about the following prophesy?

4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”’”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.”’” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’”
15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.


Please don't tell you you think this has already happened.

And please don't say it was fulfilled with babylon. it could not have been for the following reasons.


1. The northern kingdom was taken by Syria, and has NEVER been returned to her land.
2. Even when the southern kingdom was allowed to return. She was not given the land, she was just allowed to reside there, still under gentile rule and domination.
 
T

TruthGiver

Guest
#7
#7
Many places and prophecies in Old Testament are meaning the spiritual things, thats why Jews didnt recognize their own Christ and God. They worked with OT in the way you work with it.

For explanation of parcitular places you can use Bible commentaries very well. Its the lost of time to copy or reproduce it here, some are totally free (e.g. MHCC).
 
T

TruthGiver

Guest
#8
#8
Many places and prophecies in Old Testament are meaning the spiritual things, thats why Jews didnt recognize their own Christ and God and thats why they are blind till today. They worked with OT in the way you work with it.

For explanation of parcitular places you can use Bible commentaries very well. Its the lost of time to copy or reproduce it here, some are totally free (e.g. MHCC).
 
T

TruthGiver

Guest
#9
#9
well, connection problem so I had to post it again...
 
M

midwestbob

Guest
#10
#10
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so
are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree,
wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive
tree;

We do not replace the Jews we are grafted in among them. Have we been grafted into a dying tree? If so then wouldn’t the branches also be dying?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In my opinion replacement theology is Scripturally bankrupt drivel that only shows a lack of understanding when it comes to Romans 11.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#11
#11
TruthGiver said:
Many places and prophecies in Old Testament are meaning the spiritual things, thats why Jews didnt recognize their own Christ and God. They worked with OT in the way you work with it.

For explanation of parcitular places you can use Bible commentaries very well. Its the lost of time to copy or reproduce it here, some are totally free (e.g. MHCC).
Click to expand...
Some are. but it does not mean we should take all of them and spiritualize them.

When God tells us he will restore Israel, and Paul confirms it in romans 11. We should take him literally at his word.

God made a spiritual covenant with abraham which he fulfilled with Christ. and includes "all the nations of the world (gentiles)'

He also made a covenant with Abraham Issac and Jacob which concerns physical Israel. Which is still in effect, because it was an "eternal covenant" meaning as long as this earth is around, the covenant is in effect. Israel is still in sin, as prophesied in the OT, and will be until the time of the gentile is complete. After that Israel will repent, accept her messiah and be restored. that is what the prophesy I showed, and Paul is talking about in romans 11.
 
T

TruthGiver

Guest
#12
#12
Its a new theology made up in 20th century. As I said, if you want to know the older ones, you can find it on the internet or in older books and commentaries.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#13
#13
TruthGiver said:
Its a new theology made up in 20th century. As I said, if you want to know the older ones, you can find it on the internet or in older books and commentaries.
Click to expand...
This is a textbook example of the genetic fallacy:

"The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question. Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are irrelevant to its merits."

In other words, just by simply saying "this is a new theology" and not addressing the actual issue itself, but attacking the origin of the belief does nothing to say if the belief is true or false. Is there any meaningful response you have to the scriptures that were presented? I'd be curious to hear your take on Romans 11. Do you believe that the Church is Israel?
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#14
#14


There are many unfulfilled prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments which require 'Israel' to possess physical borders in order for those prophecies to be fulfilled. While God may include the Church among his chosen people, the Church could not have physically replaced Israel because the church itself knows no boundaries and is destined to reach every tribe and every nation before Christ's physical return.

An example of such a prophecy appear in Revelation 11:1-2. Here John is in the middle of describing a vision that God had gave him of the concerning the last 3 1/2 years of the period which commonly referred to as the 'Great Tribulation' or the 'Tribulation Period'. This but one of a handful of prophecies which predict the building of a Third Temple during a time when the city of Jerusalem and the temple mount itself will have been compromised, overrun with Gentiles.

'I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.' - Revelation 11:1-2 (NIV)

Could it be that John is predicting a temple mount where both a Third Temple and the Muslim Dome of the Rock coexist? This is exactly what President Bill Clinton introduced in the year 2000. A plan that the Jews were willing to agree to as long as the Palestinians would acknowledge that the temple most was once home to two prior Jewish temples. Arafat refused stating that if he agreed to such terms, 'his people' (Muslims) would kill him.

It was then suggested that the Temple Mount could be shared by both Jews and Muslims however, the area itself would be under the control of the international community. Another suggestion that the Jews are willing to agree to which the Muslims will have no part of because it would mean Muslims cooperating with infidels.

While I have yet to research the current 'Road Map for Peace' which was introduced by former President Bush and is currently endorse by President Obama and many nations internationally , it would be interesting if a shared Temple Mount is still a part of the plan.
 
Last edited:
Avinu

Avinu

Banned
#15
May 18, 2011
1,815
10
0
#15
Replacement theology is a grossly made up false doctrine that many will be in danger of from YHVH when they stand before Him.

John:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Eph. 2: we are formely known as gentiles, but are now of the common wealth of Israel.

Gal. 3:26-29 (to paraphrase) we are neither greek or jew, man or woman, free or slave, for we are all ONE in Yeshua, and heirs to the covenant of Abraham.

Romans 11:11-26 we are grafted in to the tree of Israel.

We are all Israel with Israel if we have received Yeshua as Messiah. And yes, once the fullness of the gentiles is complete, then YHVH will restore physical Israel unto Himself. Ez. 36:16-38
 
Avinu

Avinu

Banned
#16
May 18, 2011
1,815
10
0
#16
There are many unfulfilled prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments which require 'Israel' to possess physical borders in order for those prophecies to be fulfilled. While God may include the Church among his chosen people, the Church could not have physically replaced Israel because the church itself knows no boundaries and is destined to reach every tribe and every nation before Christ's physical return.

An example of such a prophecy appear in Revelation 11:1-2. Here John is in the middle of describing a vision that God had gave him of the concerning the last 3 1/2 years of the period which commonly referred to as the 'Great Tribulation' or the 'Tribulation Period'. This but one of a handful of prophecies which predict the building of a Third Temple during a time when the city of Jerusalem and the temple mount itself will have been compromised, overrun with Gentiles.

'I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.' - Revelation 11:1-2 (NIV)

Could it be that John is predicting a temple mount where both a Third Temple and the Muslim Dome of the Rock coexist? This is exactly what President Bill Clinton introduced in the year 2000. A plan that the Jews were willing to agree to as long as the Palestinians would acknowledge that the temple most was once home to two prior Jewish temples. Arafat refused stating that if he agreed to such terms, 'his people' (Muslims) would kill him.

It was then suggested that the Temple Mount could be shared by both Jews and Muslims however, the area itself would be under the control of the international community. Another suggestion that the Jews are willing to agree to which the Muslims will have no part of because it would mean Muslims cooperating with infidels.

While I have yet to research the current 'Road Map for Peace' which was introduced by former President Bush and is currently endorse by President Obama and many nations internationally , it would be interesting if a shared Temple Mount is still a part of the plan.
__________________
Click to expand...
Very well put, this is right on time. Nice job my friend. Shalom
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#17
#17
Avinu said:
Very well put, this is right on time. Nice job my friend. Shalom
Click to expand...


There are plenty of typos and missed words but I'm glad you were able to get the jist. *lol*
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#18
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#18
During the Age of Grace, the Church (The Body of Christ) is looked upon as the 'true' Israel of God. Gal 6v15,16...
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#19
#19
Avinu said:
Replacement theology is a grossly made up false doctrine that many will be in danger of from YHVH when they stand before Him.

John:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Eph. 2: we are formely known as gentiles, but are now of the common wealth of Israel.

Gal. 3:26-29 (to paraphrase) we are neither greek or jew, man or woman, free or slave, for we are all ONE in Yeshua, and heirs to the covenant of Abraham.

Romans 11:11-26 we are grafted in to the tree of Israel.

We are all Israel with Israel if we have received Yeshua as Messiah. And yes, once the fullness of the gentiles is complete, then YHVH will restore physical Israel unto Himself. Ez. 36:16-38
Click to expand...
Unsure what you mean about this. You believe God still has promises to physical Israel, right?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
#20
TruthGiver said:
Its a new theology made up in 20th century. As I said, if you want to know the older ones, you can find it on the internet or in older books and commentaries.
Click to expand...
If your talking about the church replacing Isreal. it is an old theology started by the roman church sometime around the 300's, probably was believed much earlier than that by some, but it became a major doctrine with ther advent of the roman hierarchy and ammilenialism.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.