Requirements of Salvation

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EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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#61
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(NOTE: Born again context here is speaking to a spiritual birth, No reference to water here)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb & be born?
(NOTE: This man is a "Doctor of Jewish Law". And is clueless as to what Born again/spiritual birth is)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water & of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(NOTE: First no mention of baptism here. And KEY context comes in the next verse = FLESH)

6 """That which is born of the flesh is flesh"""; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(NOTE: FLESH is FLESH Natural/fleshly birth begins in a AMNIOTIC SAC with WATER bursting. Spiritual birth comes via the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This verse eliminate salvation for fallen angels (spirit beings). One must be born in the flesh 1st to be born again/spiritually)

Throughout scripture its flesh/physical 1st then comes spiritual
Cain physical, Abel spiritual
Ishmael physical, Isaac spiritual (See Gal 4:22-31)
Esau physical, Jacob spiritual
Israel physical, the Body of Christ spiritual
Adam physical, Christ Spiritual

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
(NOTE: The 1st man Adam/physical & the last Adam/Christ was post death made spiritually alive forevermore.
Keep going in the chapter. Consider why Jesus is so astonished that Nicodemus, as a teacher of Israel, doesn't understand these things (vv. 9-10). Why did Jesus say this to Nicodemus?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#64
Baptism is not a work, and you can't find any place that designates it as such in the Bible.
Baptism is clearly a work and it stood between Jesus fulfilling all righteousness and not fulfilling all righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) so baptism is designated as a "work of righteousness." According to your "baptism is not a work" logic, no work at all gets accomplished when someone is baptized and "baptism" should be designated as a "nothing." Is obeying a command of God accomplishing a good work or just doing nothing? Can you find a Bible verse which state that we are saved through faith AMD baptism or justified by faith AND baptism or whoever is NOT baptized will NOT be saved?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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#65
Keep going in the chapter. Consider why Jesus is so astonished that Nicodemus, as a teacher of Israel, doesn't understand these things (vv. 9-10). Why did Jesus say this to Nicodemus?
Verse 1 refers to Nicodemus as a ruler of the Jews. As a ruler of the Jews he would have been well versed in all Mosaic law mandated ceremonial water purification rituals/ablutions etc. In my opinion adding water baptism to Jesus exchange with Nicodemus is a mistake.

Clearly we disagree on this matter. I'm gonna leave it at that. Best wishes, FD
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#66
What does *water* mean in this spiritual context? Nothing less than the Word of God, which is the Gospel. Now kindly pay close attention to the words of Peter which confirm what I just said:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you. (1 Peter 1:23-25)

"Water" is a metaphor for (1) the Word of God and (2) the Holy Spirit. "OIl" is a metaphor for only the Holy Spirit.
You made some valid points. In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38.

If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.
 
Feb 11, 2020
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#67
In John 3:5 the phrase ”of water and the Spirit,” uses the words “hydatos“ for water and ”pneumatos” for spirit. The word ”pneumatos” means wind or breath. So, if you see this as ”of water and wind” you see two metaphors for the Spirit being used.

I am curios what others think about this. When I stumbles across it, it just seemed to make sense.
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,925
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#68
In John 3:5 the phrase ”of water and the Spirit,” uses the words “hydatos“ for water and ”pneumatos” for spirit. The word ”pneumatos” means wind or breath. So, if you see this as ”of water and wind” you see two metaphors for the Spirit being used.

I am curios what others think about this. When I stumbles across it, it just seemed to make sense.
The spirit is see in John 4 as the living water flowing to eternal life. And in John 6 as the wind which you do not know where it comes.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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#69
I already proved it was a work

ypur doing an act in order to recieve a wage or a reward, in this case baptism.

that makes it a work,
Have you? Please quote the scriptures that show that baptism results in a wage or a reward.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
388
209
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#70
Baptism is clearly a work and it stood between Jesus fulfilling all righteousness and not fulfilling all righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) so baptism is designated as a "work of righteousness." According to your "baptism is not a work" logic, no work at all gets accomplished when someone is baptized and "baptism" should be designated as a "nothing." Is obeying a command of God accomplishing a good work or just doing nothing? Can you find a Bible verse which state that we are saved through faith AMD baptism or justified by faith AND baptism or whoever is NOT baptized will NOT be saved?
He told them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature. He who believes and is immersed shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16).
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
388
209
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#71
Verse 1 refers to Nicodemus as a ruler of the Jews. As a ruler of the Jews he would have been well versed in all Mosaic law mandated ceremonial water purification rituals/ablutions etc. In my opinion adding water baptism to Jesus exchange with Nicodemus is a mistake.

Clearly we disagree on this matter. I'm gonna leave it at that. Best wishes, FD
He told them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature. He who believes and is immersed shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#72
He told them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature. He who believes and is immersed shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16).
You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, instead of isolating pet verses, building doctrine on them, then ignoring the context and the rest of scripture.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism?*Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
Feb 11, 2020
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#73
He told them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature. He who believes and is immersed shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16).
EternalFire

Immersed into what? It doesn’t say into water.

What if the immersion is into forgiveness of sins, meaning into the new covenant, just like the Israelites were immersed into Moses in 1Corinthians 10:2.

See below for some background. I asked for comments on this last month.

Have your ever seen Acts 2:38 translated like this? I saw a similar translation online and I can’t get it out of my mind. Tell me what you think.


Petros de pros autos, metanoesate kai baptistheto
Peter then to them, change your mind and be immersed

hekastos hymon epi to onomati Lesou Christou
every one of you on the authority of Jesus Christ

eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon kai lempsesthe
into forgiveness of the sins of you and you will receive

ten dorean tou Hagiou Pneumatos.
the gift of the Holy Spirit.

metanoesate = change your mind
baptishtheto = be immersed
epi = on
onomati = name, authority, cause
eis = into

Thayer’s definition of baptizo says that baptizo is used in conjunction with the proposition eis to indicate the medium into which immersion occurs.

This shows the immersion here to be into forgiveness of sins, not into water.

Think about Matthew 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

for the forgiveness of sins = eis aphesin hamartion = into forgiveness of sins

eis = into

So, Acts 2:38 talks of immersion into forgiveness of sins, which is exactly where Matthew 26:28 says the blood of the covenant was poured out.

Another interesting verse to consider here is Luke 24:47.

“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

The more common reading of Acts 2:38 leads to an understanding that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but here Jesus clearly tells the Apostles that “repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations”. The word “for” is actually eis in Greek. So, it becomes, “a change of mind into forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations.” If you interpret Acts 2:38 as above, all of a sudden it agrees exactly with Luke 24:47. It is also in perfect harmony with Acts 3:19 and Acts 10:43.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#74
Have you? Please quote the scriptures that show that baptism results in a wage or a reward.
what Is a wage or reward?

i do not have to post that baptism is one, any work done to earn a wage or reward would fit.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
388
209
43
#75
You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, instead of isolating pet verses, building doctrine on them, then ignoring the context and the rest of scripture.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism?*Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Just so that I'm understanding you correctly, do you believe that because Jesus didn't repeat immersion in the second part of the sentence that it negates the first part?
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
388
209
43
#77
EternalFire

Immersed into what? It doesn’t say into water.

What if the immersion is into forgiveness of sins, meaning into the new covenant, just like the Israelites were immersed into Moses in 1Corinthians 10:2.

See below for some background. I asked for comments on this last month.

Have your ever seen Acts 2:38 translated like this? I saw a similar translation online and I can’t get it out of my mind. Tell me what you think.


Petros de pros autos, metanoesate kai baptistheto
Peter then to them, change your mind and be immersed


hekastos hymon epi to onomati Lesou Christou
every one of you on the authority of Jesus Christ


eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon kai lempsesthe
into forgiveness of the sins of you and you will receive


ten dorean tou Hagiou Pneumatos.
the gift of the Holy Spirit.


metanoesate = change your mind
baptishtheto = be immersed
epi = on
onomati = name, authority, cause
eis = into


Thayer’s definition of baptizo says that baptizo is used in conjunction with the proposition eis to indicate the medium into which immersion occurs.

This shows the immersion here to be into forgiveness of sins, not into water.

Think about Matthew 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


for the forgiveness of sins = eis aphesin hamartion = into forgiveness of sins

eis = into

So, Acts 2:38 talks of immersion into forgiveness of sins, which is exactly where Matthew 26:28 says the blood of the covenant was poured out.

Another interesting verse to consider here is Luke 24:47.

“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

The more common reading of Acts 2:38 leads to an understanding that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but here Jesus clearly tells the Apostles that “repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations”. The word “for” is actually eis in Greek. So, it becomes, “a change of mind into forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations.” If you interpret Acts 2:38 as above, all of a sudden it agrees exactly with Luke 24:47. It is also in perfect harmony with Acts 3:19 and Acts 10:43.
The two baptisms that Christians experience are (1) in water, the baptizer being a human, and (2) in the Holy Spirit, the baptizer being Jesus. Since Jesus is speaking here to the Eleven (v. 14) and telling them to baptize (vv. 15-16), it can only be water baptism.
 

Reformyourself

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2020
777
271
63
#78
Oh no, not the dreaded hermeneutics! I managed to dodge that one...Why did Jesus go to the Jordan to get baptised? 😬
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,305
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#79
Just so that I'm understanding you correctly, do you believe that because Jesus didn't repeat immersion in the second part of the sentence that it negates the first part?
Jesus clarifies the first clause with, "but he who does not believe shall be condemned." Jesus did not say whoever is not baptized will be condemned and Jesus did not mention baptism along with believes in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). So like I said before. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. It's true what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, yet it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism, which in in perfect harmony with John 3:18. Do you believe that the first part of Mark 16:16 negates the second part of Mark 16:16 and also negates John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,925
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#80
So I take it that you have no scriptural support for your claim.
You have shown lots of scriptural support

You just refuse to see it. Because you think baptism is a "Special" work that is different from "other works"

When paul said in titus that it is NOT by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we HAVE DONE

Baptism is included in that statement.

Why?

Because baptism is a work of righteousness. It is something we do. in obedience to Gods word. no different that other Commands God has given us, Like assembling together, Taking the Lords Supper (communion) Giving to the poor. Studying to shew ourselves approved.

You see its one things to know what words are. it is another things to rightly divide what the words say.

so again I ask you

What is a wage or a reward? How do we earn those things?

can you answer?