Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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You don't know what you are talking about.
Not even close. Jn 3:16 says we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life.
Matt 25 doesn't say HOW the sheep are saved, just that they are. So one only needs to understand that Jesus meant believers when He said "sheep" and "the righteous".
However, these aren't the 2 verses that you completely mangle.
Matt 24:13 says those who endure to the end will be saved.
John 10:28 says recipients of eternal life shall never perish (be saved).
If Matt 24:13 referred to "end of one's life", then that directly contradicts John 10:28.
And you STILL don't get it. If "action" is required for salvation, that includes the believer's efforts.
AND, all the verses that say plainly that believers POSSESS eternal life, which means they ARE saved, how can "action" be a requirement, since actions require a time frame.
PROVE that salvation and possession of eternal life doesn't occur WHEN a person believes. From Scripture.
No it's NOT. It is quite clearly different.
What does "complete John" mean?? Please re-phrase.
You have shown a remarkable inability to read correctly.
Where did Jesus say that? Paul wrote that. And in the context, which you seem to NOT be able to figure out, the issue is about enduring in order to "reign with Christ". Those who don't endure, will be denied that privilege, which is an eternal reward.
Something you have shown an inability to do.
Bottom line for you: you believe that salvation requires action on the part of the believer, and MUST endure to the end of one's life.
That means salvation isn't determined UNTIL one dies. That is pure hogwash.
The gift of eternal life is given to a person when the believe. That is taught clearly in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 1 John 5:13.
Then Jesus said very clearly that recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN one believes) shall never perish.
So eternal security begins the MOMENT one believes.
And you CANNOT prove otherwise. But go ahead and believe otherwise if you want to. I will stay with what Jesus taught.
Not even close. Jn 3:16 says we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life.
Matt 25 doesn't say HOW the sheep are saved, just that they are. So one only needs to understand that Jesus meant believers when He said "sheep" and "the righteous".
However, these aren't the 2 verses that you completely mangle.
Matt 24:13 says those who endure to the end will be saved.
John 10:28 says recipients of eternal life shall never perish (be saved).
If Matt 24:13 referred to "end of one's life", then that directly contradicts John 10:28.
And you STILL don't get it. If "action" is required for salvation, that includes the believer's efforts.
AND, all the verses that say plainly that believers POSSESS eternal life, which means they ARE saved, how can "action" be a requirement, since actions require a time frame.
PROVE that salvation and possession of eternal life doesn't occur WHEN a person believes. From Scripture.
No it's NOT. It is quite clearly different.
What does "complete John" mean?? Please re-phrase.
You have shown a remarkable inability to read correctly.
Where did Jesus say that? Paul wrote that. And in the context, which you seem to NOT be able to figure out, the issue is about enduring in order to "reign with Christ". Those who don't endure, will be denied that privilege, which is an eternal reward.
Something you have shown an inability to do.
Bottom line for you: you believe that salvation requires action on the part of the believer, and MUST endure to the end of one's life.
That means salvation isn't determined UNTIL one dies. That is pure hogwash.
The gift of eternal life is given to a person when the believe. That is taught clearly in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 1 John 5:13.
Then Jesus said very clearly that recipients of eternal life (which is WHEN one believes) shall never perish.
So eternal security begins the MOMENT one believes.
And you CANNOT prove otherwise. But go ahead and believe otherwise if you want to. I will stay with what Jesus taught.
We are not judged simply because we have the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
Romans 8:1
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
Seem you have problem with logic
let do one at the time
john 3;16 about how to save
matt 25 34-41 about how to save or go to hell
both same subject, about salvation
so you think 2 way to save or obe way.
start with simple
let me give you sample deductive logic by aristotle
horse is animal
there for the head of horse is the head of animal
make conclusion base on premise
another sample
A = C
B = C
there for A=B
john 3;16 about how to save
matt 25 about how to save
there for John 3;16 = Matt 25
let do one at the time
john 3;16 about how to save
matt 25 34-41 about how to save or go to hell
both same subject, about salvation
so you think 2 way to save or obe way.
start with simple
let me give you sample deductive logic by aristotle
horse is animal
there for the head of horse is the head of animal
make conclusion base on premise
another sample
A = C
B = C
there for A=B
john 3;16 about how to save
matt 25 about how to save
there for John 3;16 = Matt 25
Before I say this, I want you all to know...I love Paul, but I hate teaching Paul in order to prove the teachings of Christ. But I do understand your reservations, because if you take some of Pauls teachings, use them without the foundation of the Lords teachings, they do say...what you want them to say.
"Not by Works..But by Grace"
Again...Paul is saying, We are not saved by our works, which they had under the Law of Moses,...
We are saved by our works under the Law of Christ....By the Grace we show to others.
Now..Lets reconcile this teaching with what Paul wrote in (Romans 2).....again.
Verses 6&7.....God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
This is what Paul is talking about when he said, "But By Grace".
The Grace he has given to you and me...and the ability to act upon that Grace.
Why does he give us his Grace???
How does God give us his Grace???
God writes his commandments...his commands on out hearts,
(Hebrews 8:10) This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israelafter that time, declares the Lord.I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Have you never felt love, love towards a total stranger...a stranger who needs your help?
You feel that Love, because Jesus has written his commands on your heart!!
Why on your heart?
When Jesus gives us his commands, not only does he write them on your heart, his love for those you are helping....is imputed into your heart...along with his commands.
(Romans 4:22) ....And therefore “it was imputed to him for righteousness.”
Imputed to him, for what?
That's right...For righteousness!!!
That's what a servant does...Right?
Doesn't a servant act upon the commands, the commands they receive from the one they call, 'Lord..'Lord?
Again..remember that prayer, "On Earth as it is in Heaven".
What does that mean?
Those who call Jesus, 'Lord, should serve him on Earth, just as Gods servants...his angels, serve him in heaven.
"Not by Works..But by Grace"
Again...Paul is saying, We are not saved by our works, which they had under the Law of Moses,...
We are saved by our works under the Law of Christ....By the Grace we show to others.
Now..Lets reconcile this teaching with what Paul wrote in (Romans 2).....again.
Verses 6&7.....God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
This is what Paul is talking about when he said, "But By Grace".
The Grace he has given to you and me...and the ability to act upon that Grace.
Why does he give us his Grace???
How does God give us his Grace???
God writes his commandments...his commands on out hearts,
(Hebrews 8:10) This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israelafter that time, declares the Lord.I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Have you never felt love, love towards a total stranger...a stranger who needs your help?
You feel that Love, because Jesus has written his commands on your heart!!
Why on your heart?
When Jesus gives us his commands, not only does he write them on your heart, his love for those you are helping....is imputed into your heart...along with his commands.
(Romans 4:22) ....And therefore “it was imputed to him for righteousness.”
Imputed to him, for what?
That's right...For righteousness!!!
That's what a servant does...Right?
Doesn't a servant act upon the commands, the commands they receive from the one they call, 'Lord..'Lord?
Again..remember that prayer, "On Earth as it is in Heaven".
What does that mean?
Those who call Jesus, 'Lord, should serve him on Earth, just as Gods servants...his angels, serve him in heaven.
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see chapter 3.
there is absolutely no intellectually honest way to describe Paul as teaching salvation through good deeds.
to do that you have to pretend Romans only has 2 chapters.
God rewards those who do good, amen
however no one does good, not one.
((c.f.e. Mark 10:18 - same thing Jesus says, no one is good but God alone))
there is therefore either no salvation whatsoever for anyone -- or Christ must come and become our righteousness through faith in Him.
hence Romans does not end with chapter 2, because God is good!
there is absolutely no intellectually honest way to describe Paul as teaching salvation through good deeds.
to do that you have to pretend Romans only has 2 chapters.
For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
God rewards those who do good, amen
however no one does good, not one.
((c.f.e. Mark 10:18 - same thing Jesus says, no one is good but God alone))
there is therefore either no salvation whatsoever for anyone -- or Christ must come and become our righteousness through faith in Him.
hence Romans does not end with chapter 2, because God is good!
A bit more context helps.
Romans 4:22-24
Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
We believe first in Jesus and we receive the gift of Christ's righteousness, not have no righteousness of our own.
Romans 4:22-24
Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
We believe first in Jesus and we receive the gift of Christ's righteousness, not have no righteousness of our own.
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I don't. But you DO have a problem with comprehension of the English language, apparently.
I've given you very clear verses about eternal security, yet you STILL believe that a person must endure to the end of their life to be saved. This is clear evidence that you are not understanding anything or you are wilfully rejecting the clear truth that I have presented from Scripture.
See this? More PROOF that you are unable to understand what you read. None of this is about "how to be saved". It's about WHAT believers DO.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Please start with some reading lessons.
There is no logic here. In fact, it's just a jumble of confusion.
No thank you.
Correct. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wrong. It is about what saved people DO.
Ever heard of "fuzzy logic". Your "logic" isn't.
I've given you very clear verses about eternal security, yet you STILL believe that a person must endure to the end of their life to be saved. This is clear evidence that you are not understanding anything or you are wilfully rejecting the clear truth that I have presented from Scripture.
See this? More PROOF that you are unable to understand what you read. None of this is about "how to be saved". It's about WHAT believers DO.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Please start with some reading lessons.
There is no logic here. In fact, it's just a jumble of confusion.
No thank you.
Correct. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wrong. It is about what saved people DO.
Ever heard of "fuzzy logic". Your "logic" isn't.
You "talk" about logic but you have NO IDEA what logic is.
Here is a prime example.
John 5:24 teaches WHEN a person receives eternal life: when they become a believer.
John 10:28 teaches that recipients of eternal life (believers) shall never perish.
Therefore, once given eternal life, which is WHEN one believes in Christ, they are eternally secure and shall never perish.
Now, THAT is logic.
And you repeatedly FAIL to grasp this simple logic.
Since John 10:28 guarantees eternal security from the moment one believes, Matt 24:13 CANNNOT CANNOT CANNOT be about soul salvation.
And you can't prove any of your opinions and claims. I have from Scripture itself.
Here is a prime example.
John 5:24 teaches WHEN a person receives eternal life: when they become a believer.
John 10:28 teaches that recipients of eternal life (believers) shall never perish.
Therefore, once given eternal life, which is WHEN one believes in Christ, they are eternally secure and shall never perish.
Now, THAT is logic.
And you repeatedly FAIL to grasp this simple logic.
Since John 10:28 guarantees eternal security from the moment one believes, Matt 24:13 CANNNOT CANNOT CANNOT be about soul salvation.
And you can't prove any of your opinions and claims. I have from Scripture itself.
read this article about deductive logic
quote
With this type of reasoning, if the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true. Logically Sound Deductive Reasoning Examples: All dogs have ears; golden retrievers are dogs, therefore they have ears. All racing cars must go over 80MPH; the Dodge Charger is a racing car, therefore it can go over 80MPH.May 16, 2021
quote
With this type of reasoning, if the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true. Logically Sound Deductive Reasoning Examples: All dogs have ears; golden retrievers are dogs, therefore they have ears. All racing cars must go over 80MPH; the Dodge Charger is a racing car, therefore it can go over 80MPH.May 16, 2021
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read this article about deductive logic
With this type of reasoning, if the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true.
With this type of reasoning, if the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true.
None of this is relevant to the Scripture at hand.
I said this, which you ignored:
"You "talk" about logic but you have NO IDEA what logic is.
Here is a prime example.
John 5:24 teaches WHEN a person receives eternal life: when they become a believer.
John 10:28 teaches that recipients of eternal life (believers) shall never perish.
Therefore, once given eternal life, which is WHEN one believes in Christ, they are eternally secure and shall never perish."
Since you think you have logical logic, please "unpack" what I've said here to SHOW and PROVE that my logic is flawed.
Take my example above (the red words) and explain what is wrong with them. In other words, quote each verse that show that what I have said about what they teach is not possible and the verse teaches something else.
If you can't do this, you will have proven that you have no logic.
well, math is relevant to scripture. it always is.
the transitive property is math, and God created math. math is discovered by man, not created by man.
scripture is full of mathematics and legal principles. if A = B and C = B then A = C.
this it the underlying logic for dozens of proofs of the deity of Christ; it's not nonsense.
i have been friends with my brother Jackson for longer than you have been on the forum -- i know this for sure; you are not going to convince him of anything without acknowledging what he says. he's not crazy, and you're not crazy either -- he has a point & he won't let go of it -- recognize his point and figure out how it meshes with your point. neither of you are completely wrong.
you and i are brothers also; by the transitive property you & Jackson are brothers too
he has insights; you have insights, wow i pray i do too
truth is truth, and beyond human reasoning. we're all trying to reach close to our Lord Jesus
please be brothers instead of enemies, is what i'm really saying =]
the transitive property is math, and God created math. math is discovered by man, not created by man.
scripture is full of mathematics and legal principles. if A = B and C = B then A = C.
this it the underlying logic for dozens of proofs of the deity of Christ; it's not nonsense.
i have been friends with my brother Jackson for longer than you have been on the forum -- i know this for sure; you are not going to convince him of anything without acknowledging what he says. he's not crazy, and you're not crazy either -- he has a point & he won't let go of it -- recognize his point and figure out how it meshes with your point. neither of you are completely wrong.
you and i are brothers also; by the transitive property you & Jackson are brothers too
he has insights; you have insights, wow i pray i do too
truth is truth, and beyond human reasoning. we're all trying to reach close to our Lord Jesus
please be brothers instead of enemies, is what i'm really saying =]
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@Jackson123 i love you brother
@FreeGrace2 i love you brother
@FreeGrace2 i love you brother
James 2
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
jame say
I will show my faith by my deed
how ?
Sheep in matt 25 show what faith do or show what faith is
base jame 2:18 it is what faith is
but I think you can say what faith do, not much different
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
jame say
I will show my faith by my deed
how ?
Sheep in matt 25 show what faith do or show what faith is
base jame 2:18 it is what faith is
but I think you can say what faith do, not much different