Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Beckie]

Good Post. I do not think I disagree with a single thing you stated here. I've long said good works without faith in Christ cannot gain you anything, but good works with faith in Christ, as many Bible passages teach (even the Lord Himself in e.g. Mat 6:4), will gain an eternal reward. When the Bible says: "And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works" (Heb 10:24), I cannot think of a better way to do so than by reminding other brothers and sisters in Christ that we have Heavenly Rewards promised to us for the good works we do as the fruit of our faith in Christ. I also agree there are degrees of torments for unbelievers; those who sinned more are tormented more, and those who sinned less are tormented less.

1 Cor 3:7-15 is the classic passage that teaches (in vs 8) "every one will be rewarded according to his own labor". Not "Salvation for Works", but "Rewards for Works" done with faith in Christ.

1 Cor 3:

"7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Christ Our Foundation
(Isaiah 28:14–22; Ephesians 2:19–22; 1 Peter 2:1–8)

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Summary of Marian Doctrine

The Catholic Church teaches that by a free decision of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary was elevated to become the Mother of His Son Jesus Christ and Jesus' worthy associate in redeeming mankind. She was prepared for this role by being preserved by God's grace from all sin, original and personal, throughout her entire life, and was rewarded at the end of her life for her cooperation with God's plan by being taken up, body and soul, into Heaven, where she reigns with her Son as Queen of the Universe, and whence she distributes to men all the graces which, with, through and under her Son, she helped to merit on Calvary.

Not Scriptural

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Summary of Marian Doctrine

The Catholic Church teaches that by a free decision of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary was elevated to become the Mother of His Son Jesus Christ and Jesus' worthy associate in redeeming mankind. She was prepared for this role by being preserved by God's grace from all sin, original and personal, throughout her entire life, and was rewarded at the end of her life for her cooperation with God's plan by being taken up, body and soul, into Heaven, where she reigns with her Son as Queen of the Universe, and whence she distributes to men all the graces which, with, through and under her Son, she helped to merit on Calvary.

Not Scriptural

Hi Beckie. That's based on Rev 12:1;5 and 17. In Rev 2:10, God said He will give a Crown of Life to those faithful to Him to the end.

Rev 12

"1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars ...

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne ...

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

God Bless.

 

[Beckie]

Hi Beckie. That's based on Rev 12:1;5 and 17. In Rev 2:10, God said He will give a Crown of Life to those faithful to Him to the end.

Rev 12

"1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars ...

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne ...

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

God Bless.

This comes from Roman_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
I do not read an exclusion in that do you?

 

[Beckie]

Again not Scriptura;
THE MYSTERIES OF THE ROSARY

Fifth Glorious Mystery: The crowning of Our Lady Queen of Heaven.

"And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Rev 12:1 ).
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death" (CCC, 966).

Our Father, 10 Hail Marys (contemplating the mystery), Glory be to the Father.

Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Beckie]

There is no Scripture support for this .
In the Second Vatican Council’s Constitution on the Church we read: Mary “was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory... and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son”

 

[Beckie]

And so we have already reached this point: how does Mary exercise this queenship of service and love? By watching over us, her children: the children who turn to her in prayer, to thank her or to ask her for her motherly protection and her heavenly help, perhaps after having lost our way, or when we are oppressed by suffering or anguish because of the sorrowful and harrowing vicissitudes of life. In serenity or in life’s darkness let us address Mary, entrusting ourselves to her continuous intercession so that she may obtain for us from the Son every grace and mercy we need for our pilgrimage on the highways of the world.

Jesus did not tell us to pray to her but to Pray to the Father Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Elevating Mary above what the Scriptures have to say is quite simply adding to the Scriptures and a big no no

 

[Goliath]

Summary of Marian Doctrine

The Catholic Church teaches that by a free decision of God, the Blessed Virgin Mary was elevated to become the Mother of His Son Jesus Christ and Jesus' worthy associate in redeeming mankind. She was prepared for this role by being preserved by God's grace from all sin, original and personal, throughout her entire life, and was rewarded at the end of her life for her cooperation with God's plan by being taken up, body and soul, into Heaven, where she reigns with her Son as Queen of the Universe, and whence she distributes to men all the graces which, with, through and under her Son, she helped to merit on Calvary.

Not Scriptural

Very educational

 

[Beckie]

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/...nts/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_theol_en.html

To long to post ,, the RCC says the above But the Scriptures say
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Over and over the RCC is in rebellion to the Scripture . in teaching and tradition

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good Post. I do not think I disagree with a single thing you stated here. I've long said good works without faith in Christ cannot gain you anything, but good works with faith in Christ, as many Bible passages teach (even the Lord Himself in e.g. Mat 6:4), will gain an eternal reward. When the Bible says: "And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works" (Heb 10:24), I cannot think of a better way to do so than by reminding other brothers and sisters in Christ that we have Heavenly Rewards promised to us for the good works we do as the fruit of our faith in Christ. I also agree there are degrees of torments for unbelievers; those who sinned more are tormented more, and those who sinned less are tormented less.

1 Cor 3:7-15 is the classic passage that teaches (in vs 8) "every one will be rewarded according to his own labor". Not "Salvation for Works", but "Rewards for Works" done with faith in Christ.

1 Cor 3:

"7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Christ Our Foundation
(Isaiah 28:14–22; Ephesians 2:19–22; 1 Peter 2:1–8)

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Amen!!

 

[Inquisitor]

True belief is more than just words from your mouth or thoughts in your head. It costs you a fortune. Nothing MANIFESTs a person’s true belief better than his credit card bill, that shows where he spends most his money on and what is really valuable in his heart. That’s why Jesus frequently mentioned money in his teachings and parables. If you don’t understand that, then whatever you think is belief is a delusion.

The truth is, Jesus mentioned money because money is what people are interested in. If you check the verses where money is mentioned in the N.T. You will find that Jesus is often talking about a higher principle, and using the word, 'money', to gain their attention.

 

[Inquisitor]

Amen!!

You might want to read those commandments again from 1 John 3.

23And this is His Commandment, That we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us Commandment. 24And he that keepeth His Commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.

See that clause, 'keepeth His Commandments''.

There are two commandments that must be kept. Why do they need to be obeyed?

24And he that keepeth His Commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.

If you are not obeying the two commandments, including loving others, then how can you be saved?

Believing in Jesus and loving others.

Are you claiming that you can disobey these two commandments and be saved?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Of course not. I never suggested such. True belief is full trust alone in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.


What are you talking about? It cost Jesus judgment for all our sins, and separation from His Father and the Spirit.

It costs us nothing. Belief isn't a cost, if you think so.


Nonsense. Just a nice sentiment. True belief is manifested by producing the fruit of the Spirit, which requires the believer to be in fellowhsip with the Lord AND filled with the Spirit.

Are you familiar with any of this?


That's not why He did.


I think your view of "belief" is delusion.

I recommend studying a Greek lexicon on the word "pisteuo".

Your view of belief is nothing more than a bunch of Christianese word salad that is detached from reality. Word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It has the power to change lives that no other vain human effort could. Those spiritual fruits are manifested in a believer’s personal life, no matter how small the improvement is, there’s always some signs showing that you’re going in the right direction.

Now if you go back to parable of the sower, the second and the third soils are fruitless, but at least there’s some growth compared to the hard dirt road. The seed grows on its own, soil doesn’t contribute any genetic material to the seed, but it can be tilled, the thorns can be removed, and that’s what needs to be done to make way for the seed to grow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You might want to read those commandments again from 1 John 3.

23And this is His Commandment, That we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us Commandment. 24And he that keepeth His Commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.

See that clause, 'keepeth His Commandments''.

There are two commandments that must be kept. Why do they need to be obeyed?

For fellowship, obviously. Read 1 John 1 very closely and count the number of times John mentioned "fellowship".

Then, go back and count the times John was making reference to getting saved.

24And he that keepeth His Commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him.

The words "dwell in Him and He in him" is not about salvation. It's about fellowship.

If you are not obeying the two commandments, including loving others, then how can you be saved?

By trusting fully in the work of Christ on the cross for YOUR sins. As the Bible makes perfectly clear.

Believing in Jesus and loving others.

To love others reveals being in fellowship and being filled with the Spirit, all of which is required for spiritual growth.

Are you claiming that you can disobey these two commandments and be saved?

If you really believed what Jesus said in John 10:28, you wouldn't even be thinking of such a question.

When Jesus gives a believer eternal life, which is WHEN they believe, per John 5:24, that believer shall never perish.

So, really, avoiding perishing is based on being given eternal life.

So, you need to do a deep dive into how to have eternal life. That will answer your question, which really suggests that a person can't disobey ANY commandment and be saved.

See how silly that sounds?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course not. I never suggested such. True belief is full trust alone in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.

What are you talking about? It cost Jesus judgment for all our sins, and separation from His Father and the Spirit.

It costs us nothing. Belief isn't a cost, if you think so.

Nonsense. Just a nice sentiment. True belief is manifested by producing the fruit of the Spirit, which requires the believer to be in fellowhsip with the Lord AND filled with the Spirit.

Are you familiar with any of this?

Your view of belief is nothing more than a bunch of Christianese word salad that is detached from reality.

Well, at least you answered my question about being familiar with "any of this". Obviously you are not. That's why it is so foreign to you.

Your pastor gets an F over your lack of knowledge about the Bible.

Word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It has the power to change lives that no other vain human effort could. Those spiritual fruits are manifested in a believer’s personal life, no matter how small the improvement is, there’s always some signs showing that you’re going in the right direction.

This is a fantasy. Why would Paul command believers to STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit then?

Why would Paul command believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). Your comments reveal your view that all true believers will grow up in the faith and produce divine good. Nope.

Now if you go back to parable of the sower, the second and the third soils are fruitless, but at least there’s some growth compared to the hard dirt road.

Which demonstrates that they were saved. However, they didn't produce fruit. So Calvinists (mostly) claim they weren't really saved.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The truth is, Jesus mentioned money because money is what people are interested in. If you check the verses where money is mentioned in the N.T. You will find that Jesus is often talking about a higher principle, and using the word, 'money', to gain their attention.

That principle is render Caesar’s to Caesar and God’s to God. Money is a good servant but a bad master. It comes today and goes tomorrow, we are but stewards entrusted by God to manage it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course not. I never suggested such. True belief is full trust alone in the work of Christ on your behalf for salvation.

What are you talking about? It cost Jesus judgment for all our sins, and separation from His Father and the Spirit.

It costs us nothing. Belief isn't a cost, if you think so.

Nonsense. Just a nice sentiment. True belief is manifested by producing the fruit of the Spirit, which requires the believer to be in fellowhsip with the Lord AND filled with the Spirit.

Are you familiar with any of this?

Well, at least you answered my question about being familiar with "any of this". Obviously you are not. That's why it is so foreign to you.

Your pastor gets an F over your lack of knowledge about the Bible.



This is a fantasy. Why would Paul command believers to STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit then?

Why would Paul command believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). Your comments reveal your view that all true believers will grow up in the faith and produce divine good. Nope.


Which demonstrates that they were saved. However, they didn't produce fruit. So Calvinists (mostly) claim they weren't really saved.

Oh, I’m familiar with the Scripture, what I’m not familiar with is your gnostic sentiments. Body and soul are one, sow an idea, an action will grow, sooner or later.

And by the way, Eph. 4:30-31 proves once saved always saved, and it urges believes to put away all those negative emotions and filthy language. Now if one really believes in that, shouldn’t those negative emotions and filthy language be gone from his life? Even just starting with the absence of one negative emotion out of his mind and one filthy word out of his vocabulary?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, I’m familiar with the Scripture

But you've shown that you have no familiarity with basic spiritual growth principles. So, you're not that familiar with Scripture.

what I’m not familiar with is your gnostic sentiments.

Then prove your opinion here with showing the thread my "gnostic sentiments". What hogwash.

Body and soul are one

Is that your idea what you think is my idea?

sow an idea, an action will grow, sooner or later.

What point are you trying to make here?

And by the way, Eph. 4:30-31 proves once saved always saved, and it urges believes to put away all those negative emotions and filthy language.

OK, at least you do have some familiarity with what grieving the Spirit is.

Now if one really believes in that, shouldn’t those negative emotions and filthy language be gone from his life?

Well, you've got to ask yourself: why would Paul tell believers to STOP grieving the Spirit IF they can't grieve the Spirit?

Even just starting with the absence of one negative emotion out of his mind and one filthy word out of his vocabulary?

And your point?

 

[kleronomos]

Here are some of the shocking (to me) findings in the poll (2020) cited below...

"A majority of Americans, a new survey finds, no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal salvation. Faith (generally) and good works, they say, will do the trick "

"Equally as startling, it was found that a majority of people who describe themselves as Christian (52%) believe that a person can gain eternal salvation by “being or doing good.” That includes close to half of all adults associated with Pentecostal (46%), mainline Protestant (44%), and evangelical (41%) churches. As expected, a much larger share of Catholics (70%) embrace that point of view."

This salvation-can-be-earned perspective, Barna says, fits well with other widely held views identified in the American Worldview Inventory 2020 that are at odds with biblical teaching.
Those have included:


• There is no absolute moral truth (58%)
• Basis of truth are factors or sources other than God (58%)
• Right/wrong determined by factors other than the Bible (77%)
• The Bible is not the authoritative and true word of God (59%)
• People are basically good (69%)

"“If you look at some of the dominant elements in the American mind and heart today, as illuminated by the Inventory, most people believe that the purpose of life is feeling good about yourself,” Barna says. “Most people contend that all faiths are of equal value, that entry into God’s eternal presence is determined by one’s personal means of choice and that there are no absolutes to guide or grow us morally.”

more at: https://outreachmagazine.com/resour...s-believe-works-are-the-key-to-salvation.html

No wonder this country is in the mess it's in.

I agree and when we consider not one generation of Christians have ever been under the OLD COVENANT and FROM the very beginning have come to faith through Grace and not works, makes that almost impossible to believe. Doesn't it seem to be a 'war' about something that can't be done in the first place, argued about by those on neither side not doing it? If only God wouldn't have used all those IF's.

The gift is given when you've come to faith, at the very beginning of the walk. It comes before any kind of 'work' at all. It isn't AHEAD OF YOU, it is behind you, so how can you work for it? Another doctrine of man that stems from the OSAS one, teaching the words of God through the conclusions of men and expecting it to work out better than it did in the past. Pretty sure 'Hath God said?' hasn't worked out well for men since the first time it was used.


...no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal salvation. Faith (generally) and good works, they say, will do the trick "

FAITH is believing in Jesus, Jesus is the way to eternal salvation so IT'S THE SAME THING USING DIFFERENT WORDS. If only everyone would have been taught precept on precept....

So, the real problem is not being taught the words of God as the words of God dictate they should be. Just said this in another thread.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



Those are our instructions BUT TO US there are all the excuses......that can't be for US, that must of been for THEM, we don't do it that way, that isn't about us, we do it our way....





Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It isn't any kind of a joke. It isn't for anyone else, it is for the one reading it. What ever Christian it maybe. It is for all of us to read, learn and teach it GODS WAY.

Isaiah 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


I believe

 

[crossnote]

I agree and when we consider not one generation of Christians have ever been under the OLD COVENANT and FROM the very beginning have come to faith through Grace and not works, makes that almost impossible to believe. Doesn't it seem to be a 'war' about something that can't be done in the first place, argued about by those on neither side not doing it? If only God wouldn't have used all those IF's.

The gift is given when you've come to faith, at the very beginning of the walk. It comes before any kind of 'work' at all. It isn't AHEAD OF YOU, it is behind you, so how can you work for it? Another doctrine of man that stems from the OSAS one, teaching the words of God through the conclusions of men and expecting it to work out better than it did in the past. Pretty sure 'Hath God said?' hasn't worked out well for men since the first time it was used.


...no longer believe that Jesus Christ is the way to eternal salvation. Faith (generally) and good works, they say, will do the trick "

FAITH is believing in Jesus, Jesus is the way to eternal salvation so IT'S THE SAME THING USING DIFFERENT WORDS. If only everyone would have been taught precept on precept....

So, the real problem is not being taught the words of God as the words of God dictate they should be. Just said this in another thread.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



Those are our instructions BUT TO US there are all the excuses......that can't be for US, that must of been for THEM, we don't do it that way, that isn't about us, we do it our way....





Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It isn't any kind of a joke. It isn't for anyone else, it is for the one reading it. What ever Christian it maybe. It is for all of us to read, learn and teach it GODS WAY.

Isaiah 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


I believe

Could you succinctly paraphrase in one paragraph?
Thank you.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And your point?

Faith in anything else doesn’t save, faith in Christ saves; fruitLESS faith doesn’t save, fruitFUL faith saves. If you’re so familiar with the Scripture, then you should know that at the end the angels will come to reap the souls of the earth, wheat gathered into barn, tares thrown into the fiery furnace, right? If the second and third souls are still fruitless, then what do they have for the angels to reap?