Revelation chapter 12 Bible study.

PlainWord · Oct 29, 2013

VCO said:

There is no earlier return of Christ, my dearly beloved. The one you discuss as HIS SECOND COMING, is his only coming. I will try to clarify what really happens and try to be brief. This will come as a complete shock to you as I can guarantee you've never heard anything like this but every Word is taught in the Bible.

When Satan appears as the Beast or False One or Antichrist, whatever you want to call him, he will deceive almost the entire Christian world, especially those who believe in a Pre-Trib Unbiblical Rapture. The "Church" will largely be fooled. They will fall down and worship the A/C thinking he is the real Christ. Because of this, they are slaughtered at the 6th Trumpet. They are seen in heaven as the Great Multitude from Rev 7 and Isa 65. They are hungry, thirsty, ashamed and crying standing before God. They are not raptured and they are not martyred. They were deceived. They were warned repeatedly throughout scripture of the correct order of Christ's return but chose to follow Man's teachings instead of God's teachings.

This leaves those represented by the 144,000 who had the knowledge and truth of God sealed on their foreheads. They stayed in and did not go out for the False Rapture. It is this group who is Faithful and Chosen. It is this group that is later blessed, those killed after this, Rev 14:13. The martyred from this group are the ones who return with Christ, not all those in heaven as is often taught. It is the martyred from the Tribulation, this small group of faithful of God's Elect who unite again with the remnant on Mount of Zion with Christ to do battle at Armageddon.

If you look at Rev 14:1 you see just the 144,000 mentioned there with Christ. Why only this group?? Because it is the only group who returns and/or survives the Tribulation. The rest of the dead remain at rest in heaven for the 1,000 year reign and are part of the 2nd resurrection, see Rev 20:4-6.

VCO · Oct 29, 2013

PlainWord said:

DO STAND FIRM IN THE FAITH THEN, since you INSIST on not believing that Our Bridegroom will come for US the CHURCH before HE pours our HIS WRATH UPON THE WHOLE EARTH. We will be leaving, and you will be left behind, because you have to be READY to go with Bridegroom watching and expecting Him when HE comes. I know you say, oh I will NEVER take the mark of the Beast, even if they torture me. But you do not understand just how EVIL this Dictator possessed by Satan will be. Can you refuse to take that Mark of the Beast when they have your two year old boy or daughter on the guillotine forcing you to watch? Will you not take that mark to spare their lives?

Matt 25:6 & 10 (NKJV)
And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming;go out to meet him!'

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; {going to somewhere that is NOT the old dwelling place of the Bride, the CHURCH} and the door was shut.

Rev 3:3 (NKJV)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Titus 2:13 (NRSV)
while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

VCO said:

My dear friend. I hate arguing with fellow Christians but with respect (and I know you are older than me), you are wrong about this. Jesus teaches us clearly that in the end days there will be false Christs and Prophets. A false prophet is a false teacher. He warns us about false teaching. The Pre-Trib Rapture is NOT taught. It is false. There is not one passage anywhere that discusses two future returns of the Lord, or places any return of the Lord before the Tribulation. That is an absolute FACT and I challenge you to find a passage which explicitly says otherwise. The rapture doctrine is not taught as a stand alone teaching with all its key components by anyone, Jesus, Paul NOBODY!!

Unfortunately, you have been listening to too many pastors and preachers spewing forth nonsense they learned in seminary. This nonsense about the Rapture is Satan's big lie. It is how he will deceive the church into "going forth," when the Lord said it isn't Him. Let me clear up some common misunderstandings that many who believe in the Rapture doctrine have.

1) The Bride of Christ is NOT just the Church. It is everyone who is saved. We are ONE OLIVE TREE. See Romans 11. For only the Church to be spared would be ungrafting us from the Jewish Olive Tree. This is so clear from reading Revelation 19-22. The Jewish people are also the Bride of Christ and National Israel is going through the Tribulation, just as the church will. Read Rev 3:10. All will be tested!! If you have any doubts about Israel being the Bride of Christ, please read Hosea 2:16-20. Here I paste the applicable passages below:

16 "And it shall be, in that day," Says the Lord, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' And no longer call Me 'My Master,' 19 "I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; 20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, And you shall know the Lord.

2) You have been taught that the Tribulation is this period of terrible wrath of God where He throws mountains into the sea, burns up trees and grass, sinks ships and the like. This is patently false. First, the 4 seals have already been opened and they are of man. If you are interested, let me know and I'll explain further. The first 6 trumpets represent Satan's wrath. Satan's wrath is completed at the 6th trumpet when he kills 1/3 of mankind, mostly Christian. Only the Bowls are the wrath of God and they are specifically poured out against the Beast and his kingdom in Double measure for the early trumpets which are largely spiritual and symbolic, except for the 6th trumpet.

It took me years to figure this all out as I was taught in the Rapture too. If you read Mat 24 you see the Lord discussing that His return is like the Days of Noah with people getting married etc and didn't see it coming until they were swept away. Like you for years, I thought this proved a Rapture. But no, it is how the world will be at His second coming. Everything will seem normal.

3) The Lord returns as a thief only to those who are not watching and believe me, I'm watching, BIG TIME. This thief analogy was used also in Rev 16:15 which is right between the 6th and 7th Bowl. So clearly the Lord is coming as a thief for His second coming. So how can He come twice as a thief? If He already came as a thief 7 years earlier, wouldn't most people be a little more prepared the second time around?

4) This is just common sense. How could the Antichrist possibly fool people into believing he is the Christ with his little miracles when the real Christ supposedly already came and Raptured hundred of millions of Christians? It would be impossible.

I know dear friend that what I am telling you will sound so off-the-wall that you will think I'm crazy. But the truth is, I was where you were. But my eyes have been opened and I'm seeing this Rapture lie as the work of Satan. Satan takes the Word of God and twists it 90 degrees. He did it to Adam and Even and tried to do it with Christ. He has done it again with this Rapture lie. For those who think the real Christ comes first, they will be fooled by the False One. He has set it up.

I'm on here trying to warn people. Reject this Rapture doctrine and do not come out for the "first Christ" as it will be the False Christ. Wait, as Christ tells us to wait, for His return in all His glory. That is why we are told 7 times in the NT to Have patience and faith!!! We are to have patience for the real Christ and not "go forth" when they say He is in the desert or the inner room.

The real Rapture happens when Christ returns with His Army of Angels and those martyred saints from the Tribulation for Armageddon, See Rev 20:4-6. These martyred saints unite in the clouds with the Remnant of God's Elect, those left of the 144,000. To be a remnant, you have to have survived something. If we are raptured before the tribulation, there is nothing to survive, thus we can't be a remnant.

The Rapture doctrine has more holes than Titanic so I can't cover them all here. But I hope you will pray and ask God to open your eyes, mind and heart and show you the truth because the time is very short.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

You two could have started a whole other thread, this conversation takes away from the Bible study that should have taken place on this thread.. The purpose was for a Scripture based Bible study about Revelation 12; that the video I posted for this thread touches upon. But the conversation started here dose not even allow for that. Instead reasons not to even get into a Bible study; which is counter productive to what I was hoping for, which was a bible study.

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

nathan3 said:

You two could have started a whole other thread, this conversation takes away from the Bible study that should have taken place on this thread.. The purpose was for a Scripture based Bible study about Revelation 12; that the video I posted for this thread touches upon. But the conversation started here dose not even allow for that. Instead reasons not to even get into a Bible study; which is counter productive to what I was hoping for, which was a bible study.

Sorry. I'll get back to the video.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

PlainWord said:

It;s fine, i even got drawn into it with him.

VCO · Oct 30, 2013

PlainWord said:

WHO SAID ANYTHING HIS SETTING FOOT IN THE OLD DWELLING PLACE OF THE BRIDE? That is forbidden in Jewish Wedding Customs until AFTER the Wedding. We are CALLED OUT OF OUR OLD DWELLING PLACE EARTH, and meet HIM in the air to go to our NEW DWELLING PLACE, the New City Jerusalem in Heaven for the Wedding of the Lamb. THEN seven years later HE COMES BACK as our Warrior KING on white horse, to DO BATTLE with Satan's forces controlled by the Antichrist. He sets foot on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in two.

Zechariah 14:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

Watched the video. Here's my take.

I agree Israel is the Woman with the 12 Tribes and the Saxons being the Lost tribes.

The 7 heads, 10 horns, and 7 crowns he loses me on.

But I like that he's right about who is running the Tribulation - Satan. Most uninformed people think the trib is all God's wrath.

I can't believe he has it right about most Christians being deceived during the Great Apostasy of 2 Thes 2. I thought He was a Pre-tribber? Wow, he even said Satan comes first. He better change his mission statement because his view has obviously changed. Christians are waking up!!

He has the flood correctly identified as Lies of Satan - Such as the Rapture doctrine.

The remnant are the Elect - Good.

But he didn't discuss many of the other symbols here such as the earth swallowing up the lies, that the remnant are what's left of the slaughtered church and 144K. He doesn't discuss where the Woman goes for the 3-1/2 years or what the nourishment represents. But for a 12 min video, he did a decent job.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

PlainWord said:

He does not teach there will be a slaughter, the emphasis is on the deception. I guess if he got into Revelation 9, he would have mentioned that there is a commandment given to Satan not to touch ( physically ) no one , but only deceive . Since he nor me, believes in a rapture, the Christians aka the women-at-the-end-of the chapter it states it, is here on earth and Satan sends out that flood. But, she will have the truth of whats happening, from that Revelation of Christ so escapes it in that sense. It was called the hour of temptation by Christ in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 I think. That hour He shortened in Mark 13. Since its deception, if you know the truth, you should not find Satan to be a temptation, but an abomination. Everyone else, that hasn't listen to Christ warnings, will be stung , meaning deceived.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

It's after that tribulation of Antichrist ( Satan ) that The True Christ returns. the Real Bridegroom the bride is suppose to wait for. And not go whoring after a fake one. ( Mark 13: 21-27 ).

Here is a good scripture also, that shows how Christ will return in that day. That day is the Lords Day ( Revelation 1:10 ) that John was shown the things before and after and during it .
Zechariah 14:4-9

King James Version (KJV)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

You even see here, that Christ returns to this earth, and has with Him those people that overcame the mark of the beast, Not because they where taken, but because they were here, and faced Satan and were not decived by his lies. They are going to be here to work for God in the field, and not allow themselves to be taken in the Apostasy or falling away as Paul said it. ( Matthew 24:40 ).
Revelation 15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.............

Again, you cant overcome this, if your not here to do that and be used potential by God. Check out Mark 13:11 .

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

Ephesians 6:13

Viewing the King James Version.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

This day is the hour of temptation Christ warned about many times also his apostles. Its the tribulation of Antichrist. Its the word of God on and in place, to stand in the evil day...

It does not say to fly away in the evil day..

I don't want to get into rapture , but if you look at the Greek carfully and I Corinthians 15, you'll find Paul is not teaching about a flight into the air, but in the Greek, Paul is saying, there is going to be a great gathering of Christian witnesses, and be caught up in those transfigured spiritual bodies we all will meet the Lord in, on this earth at His return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Paul gos on to say when, that is suppose to happen in his second letter to the Thessalonians in chapter 2. He says its after, the lies of Satan with all signs and lying wonders.

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

nathan3 said:

Yes Satan is commanded not to harm anyone at the 5th trumpet. The only people exempt from this 5 month period of "torment" are the small group of Elect, "those that don't have the Seal of God on their forehead" (Knowledge and TRUTH of God implanted in their brains). The rest of the world (Which will include the vast majority of Christians) will be lied to and deceived. When this 5 month period is over, the call to the "Rapture" will happen and 1/3 of the world will "Go Forth" when the Lord commanded them "Not to go forth" to the slaughter.

The Lord prefers to do battle against evil with a small group of hand picked warriors. This gives Him the GREATEST glory. This is the purpose of the ELECT, to stand firm and GIVE GOD ALL THE GLORY. Oh to be worthy to be called Chosen and Faithful!! We see this with Joshua, with Samson (until he messed up) and my favorite example is of course with Gideon. Gideon started out with 32,000 men. The Lord knocked it down to just 300, less than 1%. See Judges 7:2.

2 And the Lord said to Gideon, "The people who are with you are too many for Me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel claim glory for itself against Me, saying, 'My own hand has saved me.'

7 Then the Lord said to Gideon, "By the three hundred men who lapped I will save you, and deliver the Midianites into your hand. Let all the other people go, every man to his place."

I firmly believe that the whole Bible contains lessons for how God will handle things throughout time. As we enter the Tribulation period (in the very near future), God has a plan. His plan appears to be to allow everyone to be tempted/tested by Satan. Only those select few who have "His Seal" will avoid being tempted, Rev 3:10. The rest of the world will be tested. Satan will be so convincing that most fall for him, the vast majority, over 99%.

The less than 1% are represented by the 144,000. This small group of die hard believers will create unimaginable problems for Satan. It is through this small group that the Lord will receive all of the credit and glory. What a fantastic story!!

As we saw with Job, Satan needs permission to harm one of God's children. God gave us the Job example so that we know this. In the case of Job, God did not allow Satan to kill Job but just about everything else was fair game. Here in the end times, God wants to see who has remained faithful to His Word and who has become "pregnant" with the lies of Satan and traditions of men. For 5 months, the Beast will do miracles and accomplish great things that appear to help the world financially, politically and by uniting the faiths. This period of the locusts will last from May to September. Then will be the long awaited Rapture with Satan (acting as Christ) will send out his angels inviting the world to heaven.

This part is how I see it going down. It is anyone's guess how this test/temptation will actually play out. Any Christian who agrees and bows down to Satan, God will allow to be slaughtered. John shows this slaughtered group in heaven as the Great Multitude. Isaiah compares and contrasts this group with the Elect in Isaiah 65. Nathan, I know we've had some disagreements in the past but we also agree on a lot. Can you see this at all???

Isdaniel · Oct 30, 2013

Are you saying there will be a mid rapture PlainWord ?

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

nathan3 said:

YES!!! Nathan, you are all over the TRUTH!!! There is one little thing that needs clarification. Zechariah places the Lord on the Mount of Olives where he will split the mountain. He will then enter the East Gate of Jerusalem triumphantly as KING OF KING AND LORD OF LORDS. However, I am not convinced that this happens first. See Rev 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

From the above I see the 144K as the group taking part in the first resurrection. The Great Multitude who fell for Satan's lies remain asleep with the Father in heaven for the 1,000 years. If we read on, we see that Babylon is destroyed...

Which appearance comes first, Mount Zion or Mount of Olives, in your view???

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

To PlainWord:

Its not just the 5th i think, but going also into the 6th ( I'm still trying to learn that and read up and study ), but all of his time here, Satan only kills the two witnesses physically I believe ( Revelation 11 ), its hard to play false Christ, as written in Revelation 13, if your killing people. Killing peoples bodies, is not important to anyone but a brute, Satan is shrewder then that, and is not after the flesh but the souls of people . he wants company where hes going.

The Elect are going to make a stand against Satan, not be taken away in a rapture or anything like that. In fact what did God do with Peter and the rest that were with him on Pentacost day ? God used them by speaking threw them. The same is recorded will happen in Mark 13 Luke 21 Matthew 24. The same is recorded will happen, to the two churches that knew the truth in Revelation 2 and 3. Smyrna and Philadelphia they have trail ten days. That is the very reason they escape the hour of temptation and stand against Satan. because they have the truth and dont find Satan tempting .

But captured or taken? That's not written....

What is written is God will used the Elect to try and wake people up from the deception; and they know that is their purpose.

The 1/3rd is description of a past event. Because there is a reason why there are 3 crowns less in that system mentioned in passing in Revelation 12:, then in chapter 13 where their are ten. I think that one verse is describing the fall originally in Jeremiah 4 and Genesis 1:2 ( Hebrew ) and more details about it in Ezekiel 28 and Ezekiel 31. Its likely , that the 1/3rd will be living during the time of Antichrist. Kind of like asking the question, will they do it again ? Who will they follow this time ?

I agree with one thing you said, It does not matter the odds, God and one person who loves God and obeys Him, make a majority .

The majority has a choice, Christ gave the warnings, God warned about this , its a matter of do they want to listen to The real Heavenly Father, or be deceived ? How would anyone know unless they turned to God and repented God into His Bible.. We need to put the confusion aside and be informed. God's word is that seal of truth in, the forehead.

There are the Elect, and then there are all those people the countless amount of people that overcome through Christ also, in the following verses in the chapter about the 144,000.

You said : """As we saw with Job, Satan needs permission to harm one of God's children. God gave us the Job example so that we know this. In the case of Job, God did not allow Satan to kill Job but just about everything else was fair game. Here in the end times, God wants to see who has remained faithful to His Word and who has become "pregnant" with the lies of Satan and traditions of men. For 5 months, the Beast will do miracles and accomplish great things that appear to help the world financially, politically and by uniting the faiths. This period of the locusts will last from May to September.""

I agree with what you said there. Your given that five month mark repeatedly there, and from Christ Himself, He says He shorted the time in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 an Luke 21...........

Rapture is defiantly not allowing people to consider the fact that Satan will be here deceiving the word and making it appear as heaven on earth with his lies. Christ is the bridegroom expecting a virgin bride ( spiritually speaking of Christians/church ) If they are not found faithful when He returns but impregnated and with child, spiritually speaking of their being deceived by Satan, and even nursing along his work ( Luke 21:23; Matthew 24:19; Mark 13: 17 ).

But I'm not sure Satan in his role as antichrist will use the rapture ( Ezekiel 13:20 kjv ) past what he has already. Once hes here, and people fall for the deception, I see him just brushing rapture aside to make it seem as if hes building heaven on earth. Everyone would have already been listening to him ( except the Elect and those that wake up ).

God allows us to Know how Satan's temptation will play out . Because its written, among others, in Revelation chapter 13. Satan comes in looking like the lamb, but speaks as a dragon. He performs miracles like making lighting ( Greek ) fall from heaven in the sight of people here on earth, and deceives them by means of those miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the beast ( all the word, and their one world system ). That pretty much spells it out for us . How anyone reading that and still will manage to get deceived, will be a testament to peoples unwillingness to except scriptures for what they say, and maybe Satan's ability to deceive . We also get in Daniel how Satan appears when he first arrives .

Antichrist comes in peacefully and prosperously Daniel 11:21.

We do not have to agree , but we have to come to a point were we agree with whats written. Because we all have the same Bible. I'm glad that you see there is a deception coming like Christ is warning about. That is a good foundation when you can at least acknowledge that..

Rapture dose not allow ones mind to fully grasp any of these scriptures. That's why we have to stay far away from it. And I believe it is written, God is against it. Keeping with the subject of false teachers coming in His name saying He said, yet He did not say it.

Ezekiel 13:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

But captured or taken? That's not written.... I meant to say, but raptured or taken , thats not written.
If not careful they might be thrown into prisons . and its going to be hard to be used then if they are in jail. Unless there are some arrangements made to get them out.. They need to go for the head.

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

nathan3 said:

Nathan,

Thank you for this post and your point which I highlighted in red. It is a point I have made before on other threads. We, as Christians, are to be the salt and light. We are to be God's testimony on earth. Paul instructs us, as you point out, how to equip ourselves to fight evil, not run away. Cowards run away. Cowards desert the battlefield. Real Christian solders stand ground and fight. They don't back down and they don't turn tail and run!!

The Rapture Doctrine calls us Coward and I resent that. The Rapture doctrine assumes God can't protect us here on earth. The Rapture doctrine teaches that the Tribulation is God's wrath and that God is either incapable or unwilling to protect His children during HIS own wrath so therefore He must take us to heaven. What utter foolishness!! Did God not protect Noah, Lot, Rahab and His children from the Plagues of Egypt? "Oh to ye of little faith" who think God cannot protect us during Satan's temptation.

I love that you point out that "AIR" isn't atmosphere "air" but rather means "Breathe." We will be breathing or alive -air, not in the atmosphere air! The word, "AIR" is used two different ways in the NT. From Matthew to Acts 11 every instance of the use of the word "air" is 3772. From Acts 22 through the end of Revelation every instance of the word air is 109, which includes of course 1 Thes 4:17.

Air 3772 ouranos: from the same as 3735 oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extends. heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity: specifically the Gospel (Christianity), - air, heaven, sky.

Air 109 aer; from aemi (to breathe unconsciously), i.e. respire; by analogy to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient) - air. Comparatively to 5594, to breathe.

We know the Lord returns on the Clouds of Heaven (Mat 24:30, Mark 13:26, 14:62). Let's analyze "Clouds of Heaven"

Clouds 3507 nephele; from 3509; properly cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud - cloud. 3509 nephos a pimary word: a cloud

Heaven 3772 ouranos; from the same as 3735 oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension - heaven (as the abode of God); by implication - happiness, power, eternity: specifically - the Gospel (Christianity), - air, heaven, sky.

We see the Heaven and the first Air are the EXACT SAME WORD!! Now let's look at 3735 oros

3735 oros; probably from an obsolete - oro (to rise or "rear" perhaps akin to 142; comparatively 3733) a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain) - hill, mount(ain).

Obviously the concept Paul was trying to get across in 1 Thes 4, especially verse 17 was confusing. Are we meeting the Lord on a cloudy day or cloudy mountaintop or are we meeting Him in the Clouds of the Atmosphere? We know it will be a dark cloudy day immediately before the Lord returns. Is it these clouds that suddenly turn white as the brightness of the Lord turns them white? Had the gloomy dark cloudy or foggy day just become illuminated with the Lord's return and He isn't riding a cloud down from heaven or staying in a cloud above the ground but rather standing on a mountaintop, perhaps Mount Zion or perhaps Mount of Olives on a foggy day? This would really change things wouldn't it?? I mean if Christ is on a foggy mountaintop when we are gathered to Him and not in a cloud above earth, would that change a few minds about a Rapture off to heaven?

No wonder the Thessalonians were confused and sent word back to Paul asking Him to clarify. I am confused too as are countless Bible scholars. Trying to translate 1 Thes 4:17 is near impossible as it can be taken several different ways, each of which give completely different meanings. But thankfully Paul takes a different approach in 2 Thes 2. Instead of saying this:

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

He says this:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Paul just calls it a "gathering" not a catching up in the clouds. Paul goes on to assure the Thessalonians that the Day of Christ had not yet come. He goes on to say:

"not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come."

Paul doesn't want the Thessalonians to listen to ANY outside influence on this topic, not even a spirit and especially not any word or letter that wasn't from us (Paul, Timothy or Silas). Obviously Paul did NOT teach a Pre-Trib Rapture in his first letter because if he had, there would be no reason to give this warning next:
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Return of the Lord) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...
Because if there was an earlier Rapture, the Thessalonians would not be around to be deceived by the Man of Sin, thus no need for the warning!! They would have been Raptured. If there were two returns, Paul would have out of necessity provided a distinction between each when switcing between topics. He never does and neither does Christ or John or any other place in the Bible.

nathan3 · Oct 30, 2013

I agree with most of what you wrote just below.

Its easy to document what Paul is saying in I Thess 4. And I have dont it in other threads. but I'm doing to take a brake for now. maybe I will be back later or start yet another thread detailing I Thess 4.

PlainWord · Oct 30, 2013

Back on topic, Rev 12:

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

We already established that the "FLOOD" is Satan's lies that he uses in an attempt to "sweep away" Israel. We see here that the "EARTH" opened its mouth and swallowed up the Lies. Do we find another passage in the Bible that helps us translate the meaning of this? Why yes we do.

Psalm 85:

7 Show us Your mercy, Lord, And grant us Your salvation. 8 I will hear what God the Lord will speak, For He will speak peace To His people and to His saints; But let them not turn back to folly. 9 Surely His salvation is near to those who fear Him, That glory may dwell in our land. 10 Mercy and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed. 11 Truth shall spring out of the earth, And righteousness shall look down from heaven.

What was man made from? The dust of the ground. So, there will be those who preach the truth, who help Israel stand against Satan's lies.

Revelation chapter 12 Bible study.

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nathan3

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Senior Member

nathan3

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Senior Member