Revelation in Chronological Order?

[Ahwatukee]

Unfortunately, we can't go any further until we agree on this since it sets the chronology.


Luke 21;5-7

And as some spake OF THE TEMPLE, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? and what sign will there be when THESE THINGS shall come to pass?

The disciples specifically asked WHEN the 2nd temple...the temple they were currently looking at and admiring...would be destroyed like The Messiah just predicted it would be.

Do you agree?

By this historical view, you greatly dilute the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since you think that we are already at the 5th trumpet, you are in for a great shock when these things actually begin to take place. And the only reason that you believe this, is because it is a teaching (false) that already existed and that you adopted.

The wrath of God is going to deal with the entire earth in a short period of time, which will be the last seven years of that last generation and which is why it will be so chaotic and destructive. They are going to be taking place like birth pains, one event of wrath after another, getting more intense as they go. All of those historical events with their dates that you assigned to the seals, trumpets and bowls is deceiving to say the least, as once again, they are assigned without rhyme or reason, concocted. You're just repeating the known false teaching of the historical view.

The information in Luke is mixing the destruction of the temple with future events. You seem to favor Luke. Here is what Matthew says:

"While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Since Jesus already told them about the temple being destroyed, He focuses in on the last part of their question, namely, "what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

The destruction of the temple which took place 1900 years ago is obviously not one of the signs of the Lord's coming.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So again, the question is, who is authorized to testify of any prophecy's fulfillment, if not witnesses? John wrote his gospel as a witness of the fulfillment of OT prophecies.

What you're telling me is scripture testifies to its own fulfillment...except you said earlier that the prophecies of Revelation are not yet fulfilled. There's no other book after the book of Revelation so what will testify to the fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies if people/believers aren't authorized to testify? It's a simple question. How will you know anything is fulfilled if there's no more scripture?

That is an easy question. The inhabitants of the earth will know that the prophesies of Revelation have taken place because they will see them with their own eyes. The great tribulation saints will certainly recognize all of the events of wrath, because they will have the prophesies in Revelation that will allow them to follow along like a road map. For example, when that ruler establishes his seven year covenant with Israel, they will know that the seven years has begun. They will also know that 3 1/2 years from then, that he will break his covenant and set up that abomination. In addition, once they see those demonic beings tormenting the inhabitants of the earth with stings like scorpions, then they will know that the 5th trumpet has sounded. Once that takes place, they will then be anticipating the 6th trumpet which results in a third of the earths population being killed by those four fallen angels and their demonic army of 200 million. And they will follow along with every seal, trumpet and bowl judgment in the same manner which will identify where they are in relation to the Lord's return to end the age.

The prophesies in Revelation won't have to be written about to prove they've been fulfilled, because the inhabitants will be experiencing them first hand.

 

[crossnote]

So again, the question is, who is authorized to testify of any prophecy's fulfillment, if not witnesses? John wrote his gospel as a witness of the fulfillment of OT prophecies.

What you're telling me is scripture testifies to its own fulfillment...except you said earlier that the prophecies of Revelation are not yet fulfilled. There's no other book after the book of Revelation so what will testify to the fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies if people/believers aren't authorized to testify? It's a simple question. How will you know anything is fulfilled if there's no more scripture?

I suppose you'll tell me the events in Revelation can be missed unlike this example of yours in which no one missed...(sarcasm alert)

"Prayers of 1st-century martyrs are the fire cast to earth
- Trump 1: Goths invade Rome from the north; called a "hailstorm" by historian Claudian (400-410AD); burning everything they conquered
- Trump 2: Vandals massacre Rome by sea, led by Gaiseric, "the tyrant of the sea", turned seas to blood (425-470AD)
- Trump 3: Huns (masters of the great Po river) invade Rome (451AD), led by Attila the Hun, called "scourge of God" caused desolation of soldiers in the rivers (turned to blood from the immense slaughter), undrinkable.
- Trump 4: Heruli invaded western 1/3 of Rome (476AD); Western Rome ended."

 

[Yahshua]

By this historical view, you greatly dilute the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since you think that we are already at the 5th trumpet, you are in for a great shock when these things actually begin to take place. And the only reason that you believe this, is because it is a teaching (false) that already existed and that you adopted.

The wrath of God is going to deal with the entire earth in a short period of time, which will be the last seven years of that last generation and which is why it will be so chaotic and destructive. They are going to be taking place like birth pains, one event of wrath after another, getting more intense as they go. All of those historical events with their dates that you assigned to the seals, trumpets and bowls is deceiving to say the least, as once again, they are assigned without rhyme or reason, concocted. You're just repeating the known false teaching of the historical view.

The information in Luke is mixing the destruction of the temple with future events. You seem to favor Luke. Here is what Matthew says:

"While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Since Jesus already told them about the temple being destroyed, He focuses in on the last part of their question, namely, "what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

The destruction of the temple which took place 1900 years ago is obviously not one of the signs of the Lord's coming.

No one said wrath WOULDN'T, WASN'T or HASN"T fallen on the entire earth, but the Almighty also had Israel to judge for rejecting his son. If people died in the OT at the testimony of two or more witnesses for breaking the law, how much more severe is the judgment for those to count the blood of Christ as a common thing like the Jews did (Hebrews 10:29)? Judgment begins at the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17). The house of the Almighty is the temple and his people.

I don't understand how I'm diluting the wrath. Do you know just how much bloodshed occurred these last two millennia?? And if you read my post I said that the bowls/vials were just beginning in our day.

I think you equate time frame with intensity, as if to suggest that a judgment spread over a longer time frame (than 7 years) means a less intense judgment. But I can guarantee you that those millions upon millions upon millions of people who suffered horrific deaths in the judgment weren't thinking "wow, this isn't as bad as it could be."

The Roman Empire WAS the entire world before it was ripped apart by the judgment of the Almighty. Then nations spread to the isles, the Americas and other continents (10 toes clay/iron mixture). Now today the bowls/vials go out across all those areas.

But Luke...Matthew... I didn't know I was limited to a specific book. I like Luke because it fills in details Matthew 24 lacks, but Matthew 24 also shows the exact same context.


Matthew 24:1-3
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and HIS DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM TO SHOW HIM the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The disciples' questions in order:

1) WHEN shall the 2nd temple be destroyed
2) What will be the sign of your coming
3) and [the sign] of the end of the world?


So do you agree with Matthew?

 

[Yahshua]

I suppose you'll tell me the events in Revelation can be missed unlike this example of yours in which no one missed...(sarcasm alert)

"Prayers of 1st-century martyrs are the fire cast to earth
- Trump 1: Goths invade Rome from the north; called a "hailstorm" by historian Claudian (400-410AD); burning everything they conquered
- Trump 2: Vandals massacre Rome by sea, led by Gaiseric, "the tyrant of the sea", turned seas to blood (425-470AD)
- Trump 3: Huns (masters of the great Po river) invade Rome (451AD), led by Attila the Hun, called "scourge of God" caused desolation of soldiers in the rivers (turned to blood from the immense slaughter), undrinkable.
- Trump 4: Heruli invaded western 1/3 of Rome (476AD); Western Rome ended."

I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm asking the same question again because I'm curious to know. How will you know anything is fulfilled if there's no more scripture and if people/believers aren't authorized to testify to it? I happen to agree with Ahwatukee insofar as it's people witnessing it (even though He and I disagree on chronology), but we're already assuming that people can't testify to fulfillment as you said...so I'm asking how do we determine fulfillment if not through witnesses without more scripture?

 

[Nehemiah6]

...how do we determine fulfillment if not through witnesses without more scripture?

As Jesus said, by observation and through recorded history. Not conjecture and fantasy.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

A few more reasons why I feel USA is the beast of the earth:

- it looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon; has two horns of authority (church and state), appears to be righteous and Christian, but its policies are *completely* contrary to the Almighty's and Christ's ways.

- power to call fire from heaven; 1945 America dropped the first Atomic weapon. That weapon was developed by tapping into the power of Uranium. The Greek word for Uranium is "Ouranos" and is literally the word translated as "heaven" in the scriptures.

USA has separation of church and state. The 1st amendment is something great and not conducive to church and state. In scripture horns oftentimes signify a split or rise of something new, like if USA split into the North and South and stayed that way. The two horns of the lamb in Rev 13 signify the split of the 2nd beast into the Eastern (Greek) Catholic / Western (Latin) Catholic. The two horns fulfilled by the East/West Schism.

The power to call fire from heaven was a great sign and false miracle performed in front of the people and is and has been used to deceive people into false belief. This is not prophesy about an invention. This prophesy was fulfilled by the Miracle of the Sun in 1917. This miracle was confirmed by the Vatican, which is led by the man of lawlessnes, It all fulfills the prophesy. 1917 was in the waning years of the 2nd beast, which gave way to the Whore of Babylon (modern Roman Catholicism). This Babylon is referred to as a city in Rev 18. The Lateran Treaty in 1929 officially established the Vatican City State and gives us a starting point for the Whore of Babylon.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And you're assuming "unfaithfulness" in the text while not reading enough of what the Messiah said.

You're free to say what you'd do with the benefit of not living through their horror, just like you're free to say my post is in error and doesn't fit. You saying so doesn't really make it so.

I rather lean on the events in history that the Almighty has been orchestrating. He hasn't been sleeping for 2000 years.

John 12:23
He makes nations rise and then fall, builds up some and abandons others.

I Am trusting the bible

So when I see actual KINGS OF THE EARTH who fear for their life. Who realise the WRATH of God is upon them, call out for God to end their lives, Then I will KNOW it is fulfilled

Until then, I will look FORWARD to its fulfillment.

 

[crossnote]

I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm asking the same question again because I'm curious to know. How will you know anything is fulfilled if there's no more scripture and if people/believers aren't authorized to testify to it? I happen to agree with Ahwatukee insofar as it's people witnessing it (even though He and I disagree on chronology), but we're already assuming that people can't testify to fulfillment as you said...so I'm asking how do we determine fulfillment if not through witnesses without more scripture?

I thjink you keep saying there will be no more Scripture. I think I have said we have the OT and the NT which is sufficient in foretelling what God wants us to know. Did I sday people aren't authorized to testify to it? I was objecting to the haphazard assignment of events to Scripture.

 

[Yahshua]

I Am trusting the bible

So when I see actual KINGS OF THE EARTH who fear for their life. Who realise the WRATH of God is upon them, call out for God to end their lives, Then I will KNOW it is fulfilled

Until then, I will look FORWARD to its fulfillment.

OK well, have at it. I hope you find what you're looking for...ward.

 

[Yahshua]

I thjink you keep saying there will be no more Scripture. I think I have said we have the OT and the NT which is sufficient in foretelling what God wants us to know. Did I sday people aren't authorized to testify to it? I was objecting to the haphazard assignment of events to Scripture.

As Jesus said, by observation and through recorded history. Not conjecture and fantasy.

So then let's carefully observe recorded history. We can start at the Olivet discourse. Maybe you'd like to answer my questions to Ahwatukee.

Would you agree that Luke 21:5-7 and Matthew 24:1-3 detail the Messiah first answering when the 2nd temple would be destroyed?

 

[Ahwatukee]

No one said wrath WOULDN'T, WASN'T or HASN"T fallen on the entire earth, but the Almighty also had Israel to judge for rejecting his son. If people died in the OT at the testimony of two or more witnesses for breaking the law, how much more severe is the judgment for those to count the blood of Christ as a common thing like the Jews did (Hebrews 10:29)? Judgment begins at the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17). The house of the Almighty is the temple and his people.

I don't understand how I'm diluting the wrath. Do you know just how much bloodshed occurred these last two millennia?? And if you read my post I said that the bowls/vials were just beginning in our day.

You are diluting God's wrath, because you've diminished it by applying it to the Goths, Gauls, etc., which does not match what is said in the scripture. And regarding these events of wrath, you allegorize everything and thereby distort the literal meaning of the scripture. Revelation demonstrates that these plagues of wrath will take place within a short period of time, as they are referred to as taking place like a woman having birth pains.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not going to be fatalities resulting from common wars that have come and gone in history. But will be the worst time in the history of the world which will decimate the majority of the immediate population of the world and dismantle all human government which will end with the Lord's immediate return to the earth. For as the Lord said, "unless those days had been shortened no flesh would be saved." By my guestimation, there will only be approximately 10% of the earths combined population left by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Your scenario doesn't fit this, because after all those people were killed in those wars life has continued on without even affecting the current population. It is not going to be like that with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for they will affect the entire combined population as a whole. This coming wrath will be unprecedented! What makes them so terrible is their content and their close proximity to one another. For example you said regarding the following:

- Trump 1: Goths invade Rome from the north; called a "hailstorm" by historian Claudian (400-410AD); burning everything they conquered

The actual scripture states that "a third" of the earth and trees will be burned up. That's a third of the entire landmass of the earth. The invasion of the Goths come no where near representing this.

In Rev.7:1, John sees the four angels standing at the "four corners of the earth," which is a phrase that would represent the entire earth and not just the area of Israel, Rome and surrounding area.

You also (not you but Claudian and which you adopted) interpreted the "fire and hail mixed with blood" as referring to the Goths burning everything they conquered. Yet, the scripture states that the fire and hail mixed with blood will be hurled to the earth from heaven. Once again, you are not sticking to the details given in scripture. I should also mention, that this historical belief that you have adopted was first introduced by Joachin of Fiore in the twelfth century.

In addition, you have assigned the dates of the first trumpet as taking place in 400-410 AD without anyway to link either the event or the date to the event of the first trumpet, which means that it was randomly assigned by assumption, because there is no way to link any of it.

- Trump 2: Vandals massacre Rome by sea, led by Gaiseric, "the tyrant of the sea", turned seas to blood (425-470AD)

Scripture states that the sounding of the 2nd trumpet kills a third of the creatures in the sea and destroys a third of the ships in the sea, which again would be comparable to the entire earth. And that it this is caused by what John describes as "something like a huge mountain all ablaze" which is thrown into the seal. This object is obviously coming in through the earths atmosphere which is why John sees it on fire in his vision. The result will be gigantic Tsunami waves which is what will kill a third of the creatures and destroy a third of the ships. Anyone who has dropped a pebble in a pond knows that it creates multiple rings of water moving in 360 degrees circles. This is exactly what will happen when that object hits in one of the oceans, creating and sending Gigantic waves speeding towards every shore that this body of water touches and destroying every creature and ship in that body of water. And not only that, but all of the cities, towns and villages that sit on the shores of those continents 360 degrees will be destroyed. This will also result in a great number of unknown fatalities.

- Trump 3: Huns (masters of the great Po river) invade Rome (451AD), led by Attila the Hun, called "scourge of God" caused desolation of soldiers in the rivers (turned to blood from the immense slaughter), undrinkable.

The scripture above states that the results of the 3rd Trumpet will be from something like "a great star blazing like a torch" which "falls from the sky" and falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water. Again, this is in reference to a third of the rivers and fresh water in comparison to the entire earth. If you use a pie to represent the earth and you cut out a third, that is what is in view here. Being that it is a third of the fresh water over all the earth that will be contaminated, then this will result in many unknown deaths to those who drink it.

And just fyi, the actual scripture for the 3rd trumpet says that "many people died from drinking the waters." That said, if the people of Rome saw that the rivers were turned to blood as you say, they certainly wouldn't drink it, just as the Egyptians didn't drink the water of the Nile when Moses turned it into blood. Regarding the 3rd trumpet, many people will die because they will not be aware that the waters are contaminated.

I could go on an on comparing the discrepancies of your claims to the actual scriptures, but the problem lies in the allegorization of the scriptures. Therefore, until you discern to interpret between what is literal and what is symbolic, then this historic interpretation will continue to distort the true meaning of the scriptures.

I hope that God will open your spiritual eyes and give you true understanding regarding the book of Revelation and end-time events.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK well, have at it. I hope you find what you're looking for...ward.

I will

Because god never fails to make his prophecies come true

That’s what makes him God

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So then let's carefully observe recorded history. We can start at the Olivet discourse. Maybe you'd like to answer my questions to Ahwatukee.

Would you agree that Luke 21:5-7 and Matthew 24:1-3 detail the Messiah first answering when the 2nd temple would be destroyed?

He did NOT just answer that question

 

[Hungry]

Crossnote,

Forget everything you think you know and understand about Revelations. Look at it with fresh eyes. Don’t over metaphoricalize it. Its imagery to those who are ignorant. Understand that it is describing something unfolding not being designed. If a large heavenly body came through our solar system it would cause exactly everything in chapter six to occur, and seven. The governments would be aware of the impending doom and “hide themselves in the rocks in the mountains”. Fortresses are already being constructed for this event. Shifting of the magnetic poles would even cause solar radiation through the electromagnetic field and burn up one third of everything. This would lead to total chaos, and need for global unity. Then a false saviour will emerge from the ashes. After he is exposed, he starts his tyrannical reign for a short while. Either we were physically brought up to the heavens or spiritually in death. Reguardless, I think in chapter fourteen it states the Lamb returns to mount Zion and it’s the gathering of the 144000. This is His return where He starts the battle. Then the bowls of judgement ensue, until it culminates with the famed battle of Armageddon. After victory Christ rules until the heavenly mass returns and evil rises again. Only next time it will destroy earth completely and that is why there will be a new heaven and new earth. Then we will be given new bodies to be compatible to our new home.

We do not serve a God of confusion. Why would it be called Revelations if it was cloaked in mystery and code. Just read what it says as John is trying to relay what he sees in words that didn’t exist so it comes out unclear. Don’t read what others have tried to fit into it. Close your eyes and open your mind to see what is coming.

 

[Yahshua]

You are diluting God's wrath, because you've diminished it by applying it to the Goths, Gauls, etc., which does not match what is said in the scripture. And regarding these events of wrath, you allegorize everything and thereby distort the literal meaning of the scripture. Revelation demonstrates that these plagues of wrath will take place within a short period of time, as they are referred to as taking place like a woman having birth pains.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not going to be fatalities resulting from common wars that have come and gone in history. But will be the worst time in the history of the world which will decimate the majority of the immediate population of the world and dismantle all human government which will end with the Lord's immediate return to the earth. For as the Lord said, "unless those days had been shortened no flesh would be saved." By my guestimation, there will only be approximately 10% of the earths combined population left by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Your scenario doesn't fit this, because after all those people were killed in those wars life has continued on without even affecting the current population. It is not going to be like that with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for they will affect the entire combined population as a whole. This coming wrath will be unprecedented! What makes them so terrible is their content and their close proximity to one another. For example you said regarding the following:



The actual scripture states that "a third" of the earth and trees will be burned up. That's a third of the entire landmass of the earth. The invasion of the Goths come no where near representing this.

In Rev.7:1, John sees the four angels standing at the "four corners of the earth," which is a phrase that would represent the entire earth and not just the area of Israel, Rome and surrounding area.

You also (not you but Claudian and which you adopted) interpreted the "fire and hail mixed with blood" as referring to the Goths burning everything they conquered. Yet, the scripture states that the fire and hail mixed with blood will be hurled to the earth from heaven. Once again, you are not sticking to the details given in scripture. I should also mention, that this historical belief that you have adopted was first introduced by Joachin of Fiore in the twelfth century.

In addition, you have assigned the dates of the first trumpet as taking place in 400-410 AD without anyway to link either the event or the date to the event of the first trumpet, which means that it was randomly assigned by assumption, because there is no way to link any of it.



Scripture states that the sounding of the 2nd trumpet kills a third of the creatures in the sea and destroys a third of the ships in the sea, which again would be comparable to the entire earth. And that it this is caused by what John describes as "something like a huge mountain all ablaze" which is thrown into the seal. This object is obviously coming in through the earths atmosphere which is why John sees it on fire in his vision. The result will be gigantic Tsunami waves which is what will kill a third of the creatures and destroy a third of the ships. Anyone who has dropped a pebble in a pond knows that it creates multiple rings of water moving in 360 degrees circles. This is exactly what will happen when that object hits in one of the oceans, creating and sending Gigantic waves speeding towards every shore that this body of water touches and destroying every creature and ship in that body of water. And not only that, but all of the cities, towns and villages that sit on the shores of those continents 360 degrees will be destroyed. This will also result in a great number of unknown fatalities.



The scripture above states that the results of the 3rd Trumpet will be from something like "a great star blazing like a torch" which "falls from the sky" and falls on a third of the rivers and fresh water. Again, this is in reference to a third of the rivers and fresh water in comparison to the entire earth. If you use a pie to represent the earth and you cut out a third, that is what is in view here. Being that it is a third of the fresh water over all the earth that will be contaminated, then this will result in many unknown deaths to those who drink it.

And just fyi, the actual scripture for the 3rd trumpet says that "many people died from drinking the waters." That said, if the people of Rome saw that the rivers were turned to blood as you say, they certainly wouldn't drink it, just as the Egyptians didn't drink the water of the Nile when Moses turned it into blood. Regarding the 3rd trumpet, many people will die because they will not be aware that the waters are contaminated.

I could go on an on comparing the discrepancies of your claims to the actual scriptures, but the problem lies in the allegorization of the scriptures. Therefore, until you discern to interpret between what is literal and what is symbolic, then this historic interpretation will continue to distort the true meaning of the scriptures.

I hope that God will open your spiritual eyes and give you true understanding regarding the book of Revelation and end-time events.

I'd like to address everything you posted but it wouldn't be helpful unless we tackled the root issue.

Do you agree that the bible sets its own rules? Because by your post I understand that you believe whatever we literally read from the visions must literally happen (same as eternally-grateful).

I bring up this question because if it is so that we're not supposed to interpret the symbology of visions then we should still be looking for:

- A winged lion to appear out of the sea.

- a four-headed leopard

- a bear with 3 ribs in its mouth hunched on one side.

- a monstrous beast with iron teeth.

- a 7-headed sea monster with horns and crowns on its head that rises out of the sea that can talk, which a woman hops on and rides into the wilderness.

- a two-horned lamb like beast that can also talk.

-----

Do you see my point? You're not following your own rule consistently if you interpret the beast from the sea as an actual man (called the anti-christ).

You're allegorizing the visions for one area but then stick to a literal interpretation for another area. You're breaking your own rule to fit a widely accepted teaching.

The scriptures sets their own rules. The rule for visions is set in the OT.

Rule: Prophetic Visions are symbolic and must be interpreted.

Daniel interpreted king Neb's vision...

Angels interpreted Daniel's visions...

Joseph interpreted pharaoh's visions...

That's 3 witnesses testifying of a truth, setting the rule. The Almighty doesn't change from the visions he gave Daniel to John's visions. Prophetic visions are symbolic and must be interpreted.

For instance, you have an issue with my trumpet interpretations. After looking into the teaching and testing it I accepted it because it's biblically sound and consistent with how all visions have been handled throughout the scriptures.

Meanwhile, the prevailing teaching widely accepted by the majority isn't consistent...that's why the majority is still waiting for something/anything to be fulfilled with false starts over and over.

So if you're going to hold to a literal interpretation then at least be consistent and expect a 7-headed leviathan to rise from the a body of water...not a world leader to appear.

 

[Yahshua]

He did NOT just answer that question

Again, you denying something doesn't make it not true, especially when it's literally shown for all to see. We have the scriptures. I posted even them word for word. It doesn't matter which version you read each one shows the same exact thing.

1. The disciples tried to show off the 2nd temple to the Messiah.

2. The Messiah said the 2nd temple will be destroyed.

3. The disciples then ask "when" will it happen, and what will be the sign of the Messiah's return.

4. The Messiah then answers step by step, in order

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

You are diluting God's wrath, because you've diminished it by applying it to the Goths, Gauls, etc., which does not match what is said in the scripture. And regarding these events of wrath, you allegorize everything and thereby distort the literal meaning of the scripture. Revelation demonstrates that these plagues of wrath will take place within a short period of time, as they are referred to as taking place like a woman having birth pains.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not going to be fatalities resulting from common wars that have come and gone in history. But will be the worst time in the history of the world which will decimate the majority of the immediate population of the world and dismantle all human government which will end with the Lord's immediate return to the earth.

Didn't God use the Babylonians to Bring Judgement on the Assyrians in Ninevah?
Didn't God use the Babylonians to Bring Judgement on Judea?
Didn't God use the Israelites to bring Judgement on the Canaanites?

So why couldn't God use the Goths and the Gauls to bring about judgement on the Roman Empire for corrupting the Christian faith? For this would then have been a judgement that brought about a weakened and perhaps partial collapse of the Roman Empire, but not a total collapse.
Then, why could God not also use the Ottomans who brought siege on Contantinople to bring about the official and final end to the Roman Empire in 1450s?

How is this any less judgement than the Asyrrians conquering The Kingdom of Israel in 700s BC and the Babylonian siege and conquest on Jerusalem in 586BC completing the fall of both the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judea?

Throughout the Old Testament God brought many judgements upon the peoples and nations.
But ever since the Book of Revelation has been written ~95AD, if you adhere to the futuristic view, you are then saying that God has not brought one single Judgement upon anyone in ~2000 yrs. This does not sit well.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'd like to address everything you posted but it wouldn't be helpful unless we tackled the root issue.

Do you agree that the bible sets its own rules? Because by your post I understand that you believe whatever we literally read from the visions must literally happen (same as eternally-grateful).

I bring up this question because if it is so that we're not supposed to interpret the symbology of visions then we should still be looking for:

- A winged lion to appear out of the sea.

- a four-headed leopard

- a bear with 3 ribs in its mouth hunched on one side.

- a monstrous beast with iron teeth.

- a 7-headed sea monster with horns and crowns on its head that rises out of the sea that can talk, which a woman hops on and rides into the wilderness.

- a two-horned lamb like beast that can also talk.

-----

Do you see my point? You're not following your own rule consistently if you interpret the beast from the sea as an actual man (called the anti-christ).

You're allegorizing the visions for one area but then stick to a literal interpretation for another area. You're breaking your own rule to fit a widely accepted teaching.

The scriptures sets their own rules. The rule for visions is set in the OT.

Rule: Prophetic Visions are symbolic and must be interpreted.

Daniel interpreted king Neb's vision...

Angels interpreted Daniel's visions...

Joseph interpreted pharaoh's visions...

That's 3 witnesses testifying of a truth, setting the rule. The Almighty doesn't change from the visions he gave Daniel to John's visions. Prophetic visions are symbolic and must be interpreted.

This is what I meant regarding how Revelation should be read when I said: "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense." My point being that, you have to be able to discern what is literal and what is symbolic. For example:

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

"Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads."

The above are examples of symbolism. If we use the guide line from above, the plain literal sense does not make good sense here. The reader should immediately alerted that the above is symbolic, for how can a woman be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet? Obviously we need to find out what these symbols mean and scripture always has the answer for the symbolism. In this case, all three symbols "sun, moon and twelve stars" are found elsewhere in scripture, as revealed in Genesis 37:9-10:

"Soon Joseph had another dream, and again he told his brothers about it. “Listen, I have had another dream,” he said. “The sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed low before me!” This time he told the dream to his father as well as to his brothers, but his father scolded him. “What kind of dream is that?” he asked. “Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow to the ground before you?”

In the scripture above, Joseph has a dream that the sun, moon and stars came and bowed down before him. Jacob then identifies who the sun, moon and stars represent:

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wife/wives

Eleven Stars = eleven of the twelve tribes. In Revelation Joseph makes twelve

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is symbolically representing the nation Israel. Same thing with the red dragon:

Who's the dragon = that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,

What do the seven heads symbolically represent = The seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman sits. They also represent seven kings

Who is the woman who rides the beast = The woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Rome).

What are the ten horns = the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will be appointed as kings after only being with the beast for a short time.

I have just demonstrated some obvious symbolism in Revelation. However, not everything in Revelation is symbolic. The error of many is that they have been told that Revelation is all symbolic and therefore nothing is to be interpreted in the literal sense, which is the cause for the distortion of this book.

Not all prophesies are symbolic as you said above. Regarding this, consider the following:

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." - Isa.7:14

The prophecy above is of course about Christ's birth and there is nothing symbolic about it. The virgin was a literal virgin (Mary) and the Son that she gave birth was Jesus. And she was a literal virgin when she gave birth.

The problem here however, is your application of historical events to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the random dates and events with no way to link them together.

For instance, you have an issue with my trumpet interpretations. After looking into the teaching and testing it I accepted it because it's biblically sound and consistent with how all visions have been handled throughout the scriptures.

Meanwhile, the prevailing teaching widely accepted by the majority isn't consistent...that's why the majority is still waiting for something/anything to be fulfilled with false starts over and over.

So if you're going to hold to a literal interpretation then at least be consistent and expect a 7-headed leviathan to rise from the a body of water...not a world leader to appear.

We cannot not pigeonhole the information in Revelation as being all symbolic. This is your problem! It requires discernment on the part of the reader. Most of the literal means behind the symbolism in Revelation are revealed right in the book itself. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all literal. There is no symbolism in them. These are the literal wrath of God that is going to be released upon the earth. There is no need to symbolize them, for when you do, you distort the literal meaning. What is conveyed in each plague of wrath is exactly what is going to happen upon the earth.

Now to be clear, John describes things in the way he sees them in the visions. For example, at the sounding of the 5th trumpet he says "I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss." Well, we know that a star cannot be given a key to the Abyss. And as we read more we realize that the star is referring to an angel, but in his vision John it was portrayed to John as a star. Stars are also used symbolically to represent Satan's angels in Revelation 12:4 where the dragon, symbolically representing Satan, draws a third of the stars out of heaven and casts them to the earth. As we read farther in chapter twelve we find that the dragon and stars are symbolically representing Satan and his angels.

As I said, you cannot pigeonhole all of the information in Revelation as being symbolic, which is the cause of your problem. For by doing so, you ignore the plain literal meaning and force a symbolic meaning, distorting the truth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Didn't God use the Babylonians to Bring Judgement on the Assyrians in Ninevah?
Didn't God use the Babylonians to Bring Judgement on Judea?
Didn't God use the Israelites to bring Judgement on the Canaanites?

So why couldn't God use the Goths and the Gauls to bring about judgement on the Roman Empire for corrupting the Christian faith? This weakened but did not collapse the Roman Empire.
Why could he not use the Ottomans who brought siege on Contantinople and conquered it bringing the official and final end to the Roman Empire in 1450s.

The answer to your claims is simple in that, God's word directly tells us that He used those nations to bring those judgments. That is not the case with the historic view which Yahshua is and has been presenting. We have scripture which tells us that God used the Babylonians to bring judgment upon Israel for her disobedience. However, when referring to the Gaul's, Goths, etc. there is no information linking them and the other armies that he mentions, as representing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. None whatsoever! The dates and events that he sites are random without any way of proving what he is claiming.

I have been saying that God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are to be interpreted in the literal sense. Below is an example:

1st Trumpet: "he first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

Now, did you see any mention about Goths invading Rome from the north called a "hailstorm" by historian Claudian (400-410AD); burning everything they conquered? No! These are God's direct plagues of wrath that will be poured out upon the earth. The results being that a third of the earth and a third of the trees will be burned up. The Goths invading Rome, (though they may have set things on fire), does not meet the conditions of the scripture which states that a third of the earth and a third of the trees will be burned up. The fact is that, we have no fulfillment of a third of the earth and trees ever being burned in order to satisfy this event.

Imagine a pie representing the earth and cut a third of it out. That is how much of the earth and trees upon the earth is going to be burned, which will be accomplished through this hail and fire, mixed with blood being hurled to the earth. The result will be a literal third of the earth and trees being burned up. There is no reason to involve the Goths or when Rome when they are not even mentioned, nor the dates in which this event takes place. Do you understand?

It is the same regarding all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. These should be interpreted literally as plagues of wrath which God is going to use to decimate the majority of the earths population and to dismantle all of human government. This is supported by when Jesus said, "If those days had not been shorten, then no flesh would survive." In other words, if those events of wrath were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, there would be no one left alive on the earth by the time Jesus returned to end the age.

I'm just saying, read it and believe what you're reading, until you come to events or information that requires an obvious symbolic intepretation.