REVELATION STUDY
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GINOLJC, to all.
Just reading a couple of posts on the two witness, they are not Moses and Elijah. nor do they have glorified bodies. the two witness are A. John the Baptist, and B. the Lord Jesus the Christ. these was the ONLY two men "alive" on planet earth at that time. for both had the Holy Spirit from BIRTH. and only "Alive" men can witness, not DEAD men. for all was without the Spirit except John, and the Lord Jesus. for all men at that time was "Spiritually DEAD" to God.
John the Baptist came in the "POWER", and "spirit" of, of, of, Elijah. meaning he came in his character, or characteristics of Elijah. for John was sent "FROM" God, and not SENT "BY" God, big difference. and by coming, he was a "WITNESS". supportive scripture,
John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." John 1:7 "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."
and as for John in the spirit and power of Elijah.... Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Luke 1:76 "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;" this is spoke in the OT prophet of, Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:" Malachi 4:6 "And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
this is the exact same quote. so John the Baptist is one of the TWO WITNESS in Revelation 11. and the Lord Jesus confirmed this on the mount. Coming down from the mount of the transfiguration, the Lord’s disciples asked him a question. Scripture, Matthew 17:10-13 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist”
there it is, John the Baptist is the "Elijah" that was to come. this is why Revelation is signified, meaning, to indicate, or to point ot... Elijah pointed to John. the Lord Jesus is the same, as with Moses.
The Lord Jesus, pointed to, or signified by Moses.
Here are some compiled similarities between the Lord Jesus the Christ and Moses.
1. both have a close relationship with God. Moses a face to face Physical (human) meeting. Jesus a
Spiritual Face to face. John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the
bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
2. both were ordained by God to deliver his people from bondage. Moses Physical bondage, the Lord Jesus
Spiritual bondage
3. both Moses and the Lord Jesus were saved from certain death when they were small children, while most
other Israelite male children of the same age and place of birth were murdered. in Egypt by it's ruler, pharaoh. in Israel king Herod
4. both the Lord Jesus and Moses refused the possibility to become rulers in their age. Satan offered Jesus the
rule over the kingdoms of this world (Matthew 4:8-9), but Jesus rejected that offer and chose to suffer and die
for the sake of the people of the world. Moses acted in a similar manner; he had been raised as a son in a royal
family, and he could have had a lavish lifestyle, but he chose differently. he suffered for the people sake.
5 .both the Lord Jesus and Moses were "called out of Egypt".
6. both Moses and the Lord Jesus interceded for Israel, not allowing the destruction of the nation
7. both the Lord Jesus and Moses "mediated" between Israel, (now the church), and the true God.
8. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were Lawgivers. Moses the carnal Law of Stone. Jesus the Spiritual Law of the
heart.
9. both had water connections. The Nile (water) into blood/red. Water into wine/red, (the NEW COVENANT).
10. both died .... ("natural Deaths"... blood), and no man knows where their GRAVE are. the Lord Jesus had a borrowed Graved, and Moses, no man knows where his grave is at, for God hid him.
11. both had mother who was not their biological mothers.
12 .both talked to God on mountains tops.
this is just a few, their are many more. By now one should have the understanding of who the two witness are.
Conclusion: the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist. The Gospel, (Spirit), and Baptism, (Water), are still in the earth witnessing even today.
PICJAG,
101G.
Just reading a couple of posts on the two witness, they are not Moses and Elijah. nor do they have glorified bodies. the two witness are A. John the Baptist, and B. the Lord Jesus the Christ. these was the ONLY two men "alive" on planet earth at that time. for both had the Holy Spirit from BIRTH. and only "Alive" men can witness, not DEAD men. for all was without the Spirit except John, and the Lord Jesus. for all men at that time was "Spiritually DEAD" to God.
John the Baptist came in the "POWER", and "spirit" of, of, of, Elijah. meaning he came in his character, or characteristics of Elijah. for John was sent "FROM" God, and not SENT "BY" God, big difference. and by coming, he was a "WITNESS". supportive scripture,
John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." John 1:7 "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."
and as for John in the spirit and power of Elijah.... Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Luke 1:76 "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;" this is spoke in the OT prophet of, Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:" Malachi 4:6 "And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
this is the exact same quote. so John the Baptist is one of the TWO WITNESS in Revelation 11. and the Lord Jesus confirmed this on the mount. Coming down from the mount of the transfiguration, the Lord’s disciples asked him a question. Scripture, Matthew 17:10-13 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist”
there it is, John the Baptist is the "Elijah" that was to come. this is why Revelation is signified, meaning, to indicate, or to point ot... Elijah pointed to John. the Lord Jesus is the same, as with Moses.
The Lord Jesus, pointed to, or signified by Moses.
Here are some compiled similarities between the Lord Jesus the Christ and Moses.
1. both have a close relationship with God. Moses a face to face Physical (human) meeting. Jesus a
Spiritual Face to face. John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the
bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
2. both were ordained by God to deliver his people from bondage. Moses Physical bondage, the Lord Jesus
Spiritual bondage
3. both Moses and the Lord Jesus were saved from certain death when they were small children, while most
other Israelite male children of the same age and place of birth were murdered. in Egypt by it's ruler, pharaoh. in Israel king Herod
4. both the Lord Jesus and Moses refused the possibility to become rulers in their age. Satan offered Jesus the
rule over the kingdoms of this world (Matthew 4:8-9), but Jesus rejected that offer and chose to suffer and die
for the sake of the people of the world. Moses acted in a similar manner; he had been raised as a son in a royal
family, and he could have had a lavish lifestyle, but he chose differently. he suffered for the people sake.
5 .both the Lord Jesus and Moses were "called out of Egypt".
6. both Moses and the Lord Jesus interceded for Israel, not allowing the destruction of the nation
7. both the Lord Jesus and Moses "mediated" between Israel, (now the church), and the true God.
8. both the Lord Jesus and Moses were Lawgivers. Moses the carnal Law of Stone. Jesus the Spiritual Law of the
heart.
9. both had water connections. The Nile (water) into blood/red. Water into wine/red, (the NEW COVENANT).
10. both died .... ("natural Deaths"... blood), and no man knows where their GRAVE are. the Lord Jesus had a borrowed Graved, and Moses, no man knows where his grave is at, for God hid him.
11. both had mother who was not their biological mothers.
12 .both talked to God on mountains tops.
this is just a few, their are many more. By now one should have the understanding of who the two witness are.
Conclusion: the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist. The Gospel, (Spirit), and Baptism, (Water), are still in the earth witnessing even today.
PICJAG,
101G.
Revelation 12 is the Dragon chasing the Woman (Israel) at the Midway point. When he can get at the Jews who Repent and flee Judea, he turns and goes after THE REMNANT, which can only be the Gentile Church on earth.
Revelation 13 is the Anti-Christ rising to power at the 1260 event. Thus he riles from Rev. 8 through Rev. 9 and Rev. 16,
Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter, is-ts all about the THREE HARVESTS.
Rev. 15 and 16 finish off Satan's rule, he is defeated and locked up, IT IS DONE.
Rev. 17 starts at the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact, the Anti-Christ will kill off all Religions besides Beast Worship.
Rev. 18 starts with God's Wrath in the Revelation 8 Trumps also. It lasts for 42 months.
Rev. 19 lasts for the Full 7 Years, it's the Marriage unto the Lamb by the Bride (Church). Then the Bride returns with Jesus.
Rev. 20, 21, and 22 are the Everafter and ew Jerusalem.
Revelation 13 is the Anti-Christ rising to power at the 1260 event. Thus he riles from Rev. 8 through Rev. 9 and Rev. 16,
Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter, is-ts all about the THREE HARVESTS.
Rev. 15 and 16 finish off Satan's rule, he is defeated and locked up, IT IS DONE.
Rev. 17 starts at the Rev. 8 Asteroid Impact, the Anti-Christ will kill off all Religions besides Beast Worship.
Rev. 18 starts with God's Wrath in the Revelation 8 Trumps also. It lasts for 42 months.
Rev. 19 lasts for the Full 7 Years, it's the Marriage unto the Lamb by the Bride (Church). Then the Bride returns with Jesus.
Rev. 20, 21, and 22 are the Everafter and ew Jerusalem.
Chapter 12 is the recount of the birth of Christ.
Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of the Nation, Israel, the church in the wilderness, and all who are called into her)
Dragon = behind, or in a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power. (Satan is always in the background), here in chapter it's the power of rome behind king Herod.
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, or angelic)
Sun = the Righteousness of God, (which source is in the Gospel of Christ)
Moon = the Righteousness of God, (which source is in the Mosaic Law)
OF A NOTE: keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12 and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2. "The Brith of Christ". and the after effect of his Birth, as a man.
PICJAG,
101G.
Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of the Nation, Israel, the church in the wilderness, and all who are called into her)
Dragon = behind, or in a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power. (Satan is always in the background), here in chapter it's the power of rome behind king Herod.
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, or angelic)
Sun = the Righteousness of God, (which source is in the Gospel of Christ)
Moon = the Righteousness of God, (which source is in the Mosaic Law)
OF A NOTE: keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12 and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2. "The Brith of Christ". and the after effect of his Birth, as a man.
PICJAG,
101G.
No, it's not, Revelation 12 is a part of Revelation and everything after Rev. 4:1 is about the HEREAFTER (The Church Age the THINGS WHICH ARE or Rev. 2 and 3). What you mistakenly get conflated is that the story is about the Jews Fleeing Judea, and the Dragon, Jesus and his ascension to Heaven are just SETTING UP THE END TIME STORY, by giving us THE PLAYERS in the End Time Story, and thus the one player, The Woman is given unto is in code, she is a Woman clothed with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars. We can solve this "CODE" by looking in Gen. 37:9 to see WHO the Woman is, we don't have to guess !! Which is what you did:
Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun (Jacob) and the moon(Rachel) and the eleven stars(Josephs Brothers) made obeisance to me.
This who is the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars counting Joseph? Israel, not THE CHURCH.
So, why did God give us a CODE in verses 1-5? Because Israel had been SACKED or CONQUERED, if a book comes out or a letter, epistle, whatever one desired to call it, and it talks about how Israel is going to have Jesus Ruling the whole world from Jerusalem, and that Rome is going to be Conquered, etc., etc. and how Satan uses these Gentile Kingdoms, etc. etc. that would not go over very well in the Roman hierarchy, so CODE was used, the Woman is Israel, the Red Dragon is Satan and he was still in Heaven and I guess still is, thus THE SIGN is in Heaven, the Male child is Jesus, etc.
Later on, I am going to PROVE The Remnant CAN NOT be Jewish peoples. I will just go ahead and do it now.....
The Dragon (Satan) is chasing THE WOMAN (Israel) into the Wilderness via the Anti-Christ's Army, and when he can't get at her, he TURNS and goes after the Remnant (Small Part that is left) of HER (Israels) SEED (Jesus is THAT SEED, read Gal. 3) who has the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ.
Well, the Woman he can't get at can't be who he TURNS t go after, so the 1/3 (as Zechariah 13:8-9 describe) who REPENT and Flee Judea can't be the Remnant can they? He can't get at the 1/3 and TURNS to go after the Remnant. We also know the 2/3 of the Jews who do not Repent will be CUT OFF or die according to Zechariah 13:8-9, and the 2/3 DO NOT have the Testimony of Jesus Christ, so they can't be the Remnant other, can they?
So, THE REMNANT can only be the Gentile Church, who gets saved AFTER the Rapture of the Church, which happens pre 70th week.
Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun (Jacob) and the moon(Rachel) and the eleven stars(Josephs Brothers) made obeisance to me.
This who is the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars counting Joseph? Israel, not THE CHURCH.
So, why did God give us a CODE in verses 1-5? Because Israel had been SACKED or CONQUERED, if a book comes out or a letter, epistle, whatever one desired to call it, and it talks about how Israel is going to have Jesus Ruling the whole world from Jerusalem, and that Rome is going to be Conquered, etc., etc. and how Satan uses these Gentile Kingdoms, etc. etc. that would not go over very well in the Roman hierarchy, so CODE was used, the Woman is Israel, the Red Dragon is Satan and he was still in Heaven and I guess still is, thus THE SIGN is in Heaven, the Male child is Jesus, etc.
Later on, I am going to PROVE The Remnant CAN NOT be Jewish peoples. I will just go ahead and do it now.....
The Dragon (Satan) is chasing THE WOMAN (Israel) into the Wilderness via the Anti-Christ's Army, and when he can't get at her, he TURNS and goes after the Remnant (Small Part that is left) of HER (Israels) SEED (Jesus is THAT SEED, read Gal. 3) who has the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ.
Well, the Woman he can't get at can't be who he TURNS t go after, so the 1/3 (as Zechariah 13:8-9 describe) who REPENT and Flee Judea can't be the Remnant can they? He can't get at the 1/3 and TURNS to go after the Remnant. We also know the 2/3 of the Jews who do not Repent will be CUT OFF or die according to Zechariah 13:8-9, and the 2/3 DO NOT have the Testimony of Jesus Christ, so they can't be the Remnant other, can they?
So, THE REMNANT can only be the Gentile Church, who gets saved AFTER the Rapture of the Church, which happens pre 70th week.
I must've missed the sarcasm.
Truly. Agreed, a fleeting mention doesn't lend itself to such a conclusion. But there's evidence to suggest the 2nd mention of 144,000 in chapter 14 isn't referencing the original group mentioned in chapter 7.
We know that most everything (if not all) of the imagery in Revelation is taken from the pages of OT scripture. It's like a master course in college that puts together all previous education. For instance...
Ritual of cleansing the leper: Twin birds are selected...
1st bird is killed in an earthen vessel over running water...
2nd bird is dipped in the blood of the 1st bird and then set free alive in a field
Ritual of Atonement: Twin goats are selected...
1st goat is killed and its blood sprinkled on and before the ark of the covenant
2nd goat is confessed over and set free alive in the wilderness
Two Rocks called Meribah...
1st rock is commanded to be struck for living water...
2nd rock is commanded to be spoken to, not struck, for living water
Two SETS of two Tablets of Testimony...
1st tablet from heaven's throne broken because of Israel's sin...
2nd tablet from earthly stone placed in the ark of the covenant
Two Chosen Prophets: Moses & Elijah...
Moses died on the side of the Jordan without crossing into the promised land
Elijah crosses over the Jordan from the promised land to ascend alive where Moses died
There are several more examples of this in scripture, but what I'm quickly pointing out is a "twinning" of sorts hidden in the pages of scripture where the "1st" dies or works to prepare the way for the "2nd" to live. The Messiah hinted at this in a lesson during his ministry when he said "One sows and the other reaps what he hasn't sown" (John 4:38).
The Messiah said that his disciples would follow Him...and in His first appearance He died. It was a death-work; sowing. When the Messiah comes again it will be life-work; victory. And Paul explained as a mystery that not all of the Messiah's servants will die.
1) King David's personal army was 288,000 strong (1 Chronicles 27), and the Messiah's 2nd coming is a fulfillment of the prophecy that was King David's life, just like His 1st coming was a fulfillment of Joseph's life.
2) We have two mentions of 144,000 in Revelation: the 1st mention is prior to the trumpet judgments sounding, and the 2nd mention is after the last trumpet but before the bowl/vial judgments are poured out.
3) There are "two witnesses" mentioned in Revelation 11 who minister through the 1260 "days" that are also described as Olive Trees and Lampstands. "Groups of people" (like the two houses of Israel, or the Jews & Gentiles of Romans 11) were also referred to as Olive Trees in scripture (one natural and one wild). And we know that the Messiah's churches are referred to as lampstands at the beginning of Revelation.
4) The historicist perspective of eschatology lends itself to supporting two groups of 144,000 as we believe that the prophecies of Revelation are being fulfilled progressively throughout these last 2000 some odd years. But I won't get into the details right now.
----
All of this lends itself to the plausibility that there are two groups of 144,000: one group that has died at around the start of the last two millennia of persecution & tribulation, and the other group that's being formed now after persecution & tribulation is reached its end.
And when the Messiah returns, the first group will awaken from their graves and join the second group in the air to transform into the King's personal army of 288,000 in fulfillment of King David's prophetic story and in fulfillment of Ezekiel 37
Truly. Agreed, a fleeting mention doesn't lend itself to such a conclusion. But there's evidence to suggest the 2nd mention of 144,000 in chapter 14 isn't referencing the original group mentioned in chapter 7.
We know that most everything (if not all) of the imagery in Revelation is taken from the pages of OT scripture. It's like a master course in college that puts together all previous education. For instance...
Ritual of cleansing the leper: Twin birds are selected...
1st bird is killed in an earthen vessel over running water...
2nd bird is dipped in the blood of the 1st bird and then set free alive in a field
Ritual of Atonement: Twin goats are selected...
1st goat is killed and its blood sprinkled on and before the ark of the covenant
2nd goat is confessed over and set free alive in the wilderness
Two Rocks called Meribah...
1st rock is commanded to be struck for living water...
2nd rock is commanded to be spoken to, not struck, for living water
Two SETS of two Tablets of Testimony...
1st tablet from heaven's throne broken because of Israel's sin...
2nd tablet from earthly stone placed in the ark of the covenant
Two Chosen Prophets: Moses & Elijah...
Moses died on the side of the Jordan without crossing into the promised land
Elijah crosses over the Jordan from the promised land to ascend alive where Moses died
There are several more examples of this in scripture, but what I'm quickly pointing out is a "twinning" of sorts hidden in the pages of scripture where the "1st" dies or works to prepare the way for the "2nd" to live. The Messiah hinted at this in a lesson during his ministry when he said "One sows and the other reaps what he hasn't sown" (John 4:38).
The Messiah said that his disciples would follow Him...and in His first appearance He died. It was a death-work; sowing. When the Messiah comes again it will be life-work; victory. And Paul explained as a mystery that not all of the Messiah's servants will die.
1) King David's personal army was 288,000 strong (1 Chronicles 27), and the Messiah's 2nd coming is a fulfillment of the prophecy that was King David's life, just like His 1st coming was a fulfillment of Joseph's life.
2) We have two mentions of 144,000 in Revelation: the 1st mention is prior to the trumpet judgments sounding, and the 2nd mention is after the last trumpet but before the bowl/vial judgments are poured out.
3) There are "two witnesses" mentioned in Revelation 11 who minister through the 1260 "days" that are also described as Olive Trees and Lampstands. "Groups of people" (like the two houses of Israel, or the Jews & Gentiles of Romans 11) were also referred to as Olive Trees in scripture (one natural and one wild). And we know that the Messiah's churches are referred to as lampstands at the beginning of Revelation.
4) The historicist perspective of eschatology lends itself to supporting two groups of 144,000 as we believe that the prophecies of Revelation are being fulfilled progressively throughout these last 2000 some odd years. But I won't get into the details right now.
----
All of this lends itself to the plausibility that there are two groups of 144,000: one group that has died at around the start of the last two millennia of persecution & tribulation, and the other group that's being formed now after persecution & tribulation is reached its end.
And when the Messiah returns, the first group will awaken from their graves and join the second group in the air to transform into the King's personal army of 288,000 in fulfillment of King David's prophetic story and in fulfillment of Ezekiel 37
"Many times" isn't an exact number that would reasonably lend itself to a conclusion of 24 or any number, so it doesn't really serve as an explanation for what I'm asking. What I mean is "many times" X 12 doesn't equal 24, but 2 X 144,000 does equal 288,000.
Can you determine for me that both (i.e. the two) literary instances of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation are referring to the same group? Feel free to point out the evidence that proves it as I'm open to what you have to say.
Can you determine for me that both (i.e. the two) literary instances of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation are referring to the same group? Feel free to point out the evidence that proves it as I'm open to what you have to say.
No, it doesn't. My point is that repeating something does not mean an addition. It doesn't matter how many times the 12 disciples were mentioned. We can't make the 12 disciples 24 or more just because they are mentioned many times. Thus, the one and only group of 144k that are sealed, remains only 144k despite being mentioned twice.
Can you determine for me that both (i.e. the two) literary instances of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation are referring to the same group? Feel free to point out the evidence that proves it as I'm open to what you have to say.
Another issue with this is the phrase "an hundred and forty and four thousand" appears 3 times in Revelation so that, by your logic, would be 432,000 people.
Can you determine for me that both (i.e. the two) literary instances of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation are referring to the same group? Feel free to point out the evidence that proves it as I'm open to what you have to say.
Another issue with this is the phrase "an hundred and forty and four thousand" appears 3 times in Revelation so that, by your logic, would be 432,000 people.
Yes.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
The 144k are sealed. We aren't told where but we are told that later:
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
The seal was the Father's name written in their foreheads. Clearly this is the same group of 144k people.
Another point.
Babylon is mentioned 6 times. There isn't 6 Babylons. There is one mentioned 6 times. There isn't two groups of 144k sealed people. It's one group mentioned 3 times.
They begin their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week, probably the same moment that the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem with Gentile armies.
They testify for 1260 days, which takes them to just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They are killed and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, which takes them to the end of the second 1260 days - the last day when all the Old Testament saints are raised up - and the two witnesses with them. The 7th vial ends the week. The earthquake for the two witnesses is the same earthquake that hits at the 7th vial. That earthquake will probably be caused when God raises all those saints from before the flood.
They testify for 1260 days, which takes them to just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They are killed and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, which takes them to the end of the second 1260 days - the last day when all the Old Testament saints are raised up - and the two witnesses with them. The 7th vial ends the week. The earthquake for the two witnesses is the same earthquake that hits at the 7th vial. That earthquake will probably be caused when God raises all those saints from before the flood.
thanks for the reply, second, I'll make two post to answer your post here, (because of the amount of word liminatation). Just because you said no, don't change anything. as said the all the player in chapter 12 are in chapter 2 of the book of Matthews .
you said,
"Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun (Jacob) and the moon(Rachel) and the eleven stars(Josephs Brothers) made obeisance to me.
This who is the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars counting Joseph? Israel, not THE CHURCH.".
answer, the Sun and the Moon are symbilic of the A. Gospel, and B. the Law.
the Sun, the "HEALING OF THE NATIONS". Spiritual HEALING, the "GOSPEL", the Good News... "SALVATION TO ALL.
Malachi 4:2 "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
Psalms 67:2 "That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations."
NOW, lets see it in REVELATION, Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
so the "SUN" repersent the Gospel of "LIFE", Salvation. in which the woman, the UNIVERSAL CHURCH was clothed. meaning? amswer, Revelation 3:4 "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."
now the MOON, which was under the woman feet. which siginifed no more Law, (the Mosaic Law, a lesser light to walk by), but unto the Gospel of Christ, a GREATER LIGHT. Israel was walking by a dim light, the law, (only for them). it was a lamp unto her, Israel, feet. Supporting Scriptures, Prov 6:23 "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life", now, Psalms 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. there it is, “the law was a lamp, (light) at her feet. just as the Sun is a greater light compared to the moon, a lesser light, so is the word of God, (the Gospel) is superior to the Law.
well we disagree with this assessment, and here's why..... this woman represent all of the nation Israel, (before the birth of the child), who remain faithful to God, the southern tribes, (meaning the remnant, for the nothern was taken away). this women represent a church, but is Israel the nation, or is she the remnant, a Church?. YES, Let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". there she is, BINGO, the church in the wilderness". so Israel was a church, and by representation of this woman is found in FAITHFUL, (of the remnant).
NOW the The Dragon, the "RED" Dragon,
This great dragon is represented symbolically by king Herod, who in the secular world he was called “the great”, for his reconstruction efforts. remember this is symbolic. Of the devil who is a spirit, get others to do his dirty work, he just work behind the scenes. red here is symbolic for blood, for this king had much blood on his hands. supporting scriptures, Matt 2:16 "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men”. he also had the blood of John the baptist on his hands. The ten horns is the power of the Roman Empire, which he, (king Herod), ruled by, (the romans). king Herod authority was supported by that power, the Roman Empire. so clearly he is a bloody, (red), dragon. as said, keep one hand on chapter 12 of revelation, and the other on Matthews chapter 2. this vision John is seeing is the birth of the Christ, the start of the Church, that the Lord Jesus christ is building, (amounf all NATIONS,)
you said,
"Gen. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun (Jacob) and the moon(Rachel) and the eleven stars(Josephs Brothers) made obeisance to me.
This who is the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars counting Joseph? Israel, not THE CHURCH.".
answer, the Sun and the Moon are symbilic of the A. Gospel, and B. the Law.
the Sun, the "HEALING OF THE NATIONS". Spiritual HEALING, the "GOSPEL", the Good News... "SALVATION TO ALL.
Malachi 4:2 "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
Psalms 67:2 "That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations."
NOW, lets see it in REVELATION, Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
so the "SUN" repersent the Gospel of "LIFE", Salvation. in which the woman, the UNIVERSAL CHURCH was clothed. meaning? amswer, Revelation 3:4 "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."
now the MOON, which was under the woman feet. which siginifed no more Law, (the Mosaic Law, a lesser light to walk by), but unto the Gospel of Christ, a GREATER LIGHT. Israel was walking by a dim light, the law, (only for them). it was a lamp unto her, Israel, feet. Supporting Scriptures, Prov 6:23 "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life", now, Psalms 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. there it is, “the law was a lamp, (light) at her feet. just as the Sun is a greater light compared to the moon, a lesser light, so is the word of God, (the Gospel) is superior to the Law.
well we disagree with this assessment, and here's why..... this woman represent all of the nation Israel, (before the birth of the child), who remain faithful to God, the southern tribes, (meaning the remnant, for the nothern was taken away). this women represent a church, but is Israel the nation, or is she the remnant, a Church?. YES, Let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". there she is, BINGO, the church in the wilderness". so Israel was a church, and by representation of this woman is found in FAITHFUL, (of the remnant).
NOW the The Dragon, the "RED" Dragon,
This great dragon is represented symbolically by king Herod, who in the secular world he was called “the great”, for his reconstruction efforts. remember this is symbolic. Of the devil who is a spirit, get others to do his dirty work, he just work behind the scenes. red here is symbolic for blood, for this king had much blood on his hands. supporting scriptures, Matt 2:16 "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men”. he also had the blood of John the baptist on his hands. The ten horns is the power of the Roman Empire, which he, (king Herod), ruled by, (the romans). king Herod authority was supported by that power, the Roman Empire. so clearly he is a bloody, (red), dragon. as said, keep one hand on chapter 12 of revelation, and the other on Matthews chapter 2. this vision John is seeing is the birth of the Christ, the start of the Church, that the Lord Jesus christ is building, (amounf all NATIONS,)
Part TWO,
NOW, THE 1/3 ... NOT ANGELS.
Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.
The main key here is the word, “tail”, and “of “, as in “of” heaven, and not in heaven, about the stars. stars here is symbolic of men who hold GOD'S written word. stars do not necessary , or automatically means angels. in this verse it means men. those on earth that had heavenly information, or a message, that’s the symbolization used here of, heavenly stars. revelation chapter 12 correspond to the birth of Christ to a tee. Matthews chapter 2 tells how Herod the king tried to kill the baby the Christ. it say that the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth, this is not a persuasion to follow the dragon, but an attempt by the dragon, (king herod), to use someone to gain heavenly knowledge. it said that his tail “DREW” the THIRD part of the stars of heaven. drew here, means here, "to gather together". so who did king Herod drew, or gathered together? it's the stars or messengers that is (of heaven), that’s on earth, with the heavenly knowledge of where the babe is to be born at. (I'll show this by scripture). Herod the king called/drew, or gathered together unto him his aids, to find out about the new born King, that the wise men came to worship. he wanted to know where the child was born at, so that he may kill the babe, (he stood ready to kill/devour). as said, the word drew, past tense, mean to gather, draw together. king Herod inquired of the men of God, (Heavenly messengers, or Godly men), as to where the babe was born at. lets pick up the account, and see what the "THIRD PART" that he drew with his tail. Matt 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests, (1 part), and scribes, (2 part), of the people together, (there it is, of the people, not angels in heaven). he demanded of them where Christ should be born". these men was of God, who should know the things of God, and they did. scripture, Matt 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". here it is confirm that the babe came out of Judah. Now lets get the third part, the wise men. Matthews 2:7 “ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, (3 Part), enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared”. There is the third part, or the third of stars, the wise men. the scriptures said that the dragon, drew a third part, “of”, the stars, “of”, heaven. There you have it, a third part of the STARS. lets recap, Matthews 2:4, 1/3 the chief priests, 2/3 the scribes, and the 3/3 the wise men. as said, keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12, and another on Matthews chapter 2. so the THIRD of angels/messengers are solved.
PICJAG,
101G.
NOW, THE 1/3 ... NOT ANGELS.
Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.
The main key here is the word, “tail”, and “of “, as in “of” heaven, and not in heaven, about the stars. stars here is symbolic of men who hold GOD'S written word. stars do not necessary , or automatically means angels. in this verse it means men. those on earth that had heavenly information, or a message, that’s the symbolization used here of, heavenly stars. revelation chapter 12 correspond to the birth of Christ to a tee. Matthews chapter 2 tells how Herod the king tried to kill the baby the Christ. it say that the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth, this is not a persuasion to follow the dragon, but an attempt by the dragon, (king herod), to use someone to gain heavenly knowledge. it said that his tail “DREW” the THIRD part of the stars of heaven. drew here, means here, "to gather together". so who did king Herod drew, or gathered together? it's the stars or messengers that is (of heaven), that’s on earth, with the heavenly knowledge of where the babe is to be born at. (I'll show this by scripture). Herod the king called/drew, or gathered together unto him his aids, to find out about the new born King, that the wise men came to worship. he wanted to know where the child was born at, so that he may kill the babe, (he stood ready to kill/devour). as said, the word drew, past tense, mean to gather, draw together. king Herod inquired of the men of God, (Heavenly messengers, or Godly men), as to where the babe was born at. lets pick up the account, and see what the "THIRD PART" that he drew with his tail. Matt 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests, (1 part), and scribes, (2 part), of the people together, (there it is, of the people, not angels in heaven). he demanded of them where Christ should be born". these men was of God, who should know the things of God, and they did. scripture, Matt 2:5 "And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". here it is confirm that the babe came out of Judah. Now lets get the third part, the wise men. Matthews 2:7 “ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, (3 Part), enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared”. There is the third part, or the third of stars, the wise men. the scriptures said that the dragon, drew a third part, “of”, the stars, “of”, heaven. There you have it, a third part of the STARS. lets recap, Matthews 2:4, 1/3 the chief priests, 2/3 the scribes, and the 3/3 the wise men. as said, keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12, and another on Matthews chapter 2. so the THIRD of angels/messengers are solved.
PICJAG,
101G.
What I told you is correct, I have been studying and preaching n Eschatology for 35 years. All of these Gospels like the ones you have been taught have one thing in common, they try to get rid of Israel and replace her with the Church, thus the foundation of that Gospel is a lie of man or of demons, but not of God.
W know who the Woman is, we know the Church has been Raptured by the time Revelation comes around.
W know who the Woman is, we know the Church has been Raptured by the time Revelation comes around.
first thanks for the reply. second who said Israel was replaced? third, the Church is for all Jews who are Jews INWARD.
so I don't believe in any replacement theory, but I believe in the addition theory, in which the Lord Jesus is "ADDING" to his church daily. from all Nations.
PICJAG,
101G
PS if you been preaching Eschatology for 35 years, well now is at anytime to get it right.
maybe it's you who have been taught wrong all those years.
so I don't believe in any replacement theory, but I believe in the addition theory, in which the Lord Jesus is "ADDING" to his church daily. from all Nations.
PICJAG,
101G
PS if you been preaching Eschatology for 35 years, well now is at anytime to get it right.
maybe it's you who have been taught wrong all those years.
. But
If you are not one who teaches replacement theology, then we are OK to chat, those kinds get me irritated. But nevertheless, their teachings have rubbed off, kind of like the 144,000 legend. They are not SUPER PREACHERS ad never were, nowhere in the bible says that but it's become legend. Likewise, Galatians chapter 3 is just the opposite (if one takes time to REREAD and PONDER it) what many people discern. It's not Paul saying the Jews and Gentiles are ONE, reread it with this challenge, think of it going as Paul trying to rebuke the Galatians for thinking they had to ACT LIKE Jews (keeping the Law, etc.) in order to make it to Heaven. Thus he says WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU, that being born in the SPIRIT you have now become of the FLESH (Law). Then he goes on and comparing THE LAW ve THE PROMISE. How the Law only came 430 years AFTER the Promise. How the Law can only condemn, it can't save you, ONLY FAITH saves us he tells them.
Now, proof comes at the very end and no one sees it, or many don't see it. Paul tells them there is neither Jews nor Greeks(Gentiles), there is neither slave nor free man there is neither MALE nor FEMALE. So, what is Paul saying here? Are we all ONE UNISEX? Of course not, AND we are not all ONE peoples, we are Jew and Gentile (Greek) still, just like we still have MALE & FEMALES !! Paul was rebuking them for trying to be Jews (via keeping THE LAW instead of living BY FAITH), thus he is telling them, HEY Galatians, what is wrong with you guys? Why are you trying to be Jews and to serve God on the Flesh by keeping the Laws? God doesn't see your NATIONALITY and more than H sees OUR SEX, He accepts ALL by Faith, be ye Jews, Greeks, Woman, Men, Slaves or Freemen, so STOP trying to be Jews and STOP trying to keep those arcane Laws, we live by FAITH ALONE.
So, when I see these guys say there is neither Jew nor Greek, and they do not even ponder why it was said, nor realize that there are still MALE and FEMALE which proves the juxtaposition of Paul was just the opposite of what many people infer.
So, yes, there will be Old Jewish Saints raised at the very end, then at the Rapture, which is Christs bride, there will be both Jew and Gentile raptured to marry Jesus IN HEAVEN whilst the Beast is raveging the earth, that is how we return with Jesus to MEET the Beast and his inions back on earth. There will be Jews AND Gentiles saved after the Rapture, 1/3 of the Jews come to Christ at this time, whilst 2/3 will refuse to repent. The Martyrs under the Altar are Gentiles who repented AFTER the Rapture. Thus both Jews and Gentiles ar in the Church/Bride and both Jews and Gentiles are saved during the 70th week, but in ALL CASES, no one is saved except BY FAITH ALONE. Thus in God's Eyes, there is neither Jew nor Gentie, Male nor Female, He sees ONLY OR FAITH, our Spirit man is neither Male nor Femake, Jew nor Greek, BUT There will be a Jewish Nation that Jesus rules from fir 1000 years, he brings in TE KINGDOM via the Jewish Nation, that's a fact. And the after 1000 years Satan is loosed again, and decieves mankind again.
God Bless
If you are not one who teaches replacement theology, then we are OK to chat, those kinds get me irritated. But nevertheless, their teachings have rubbed off, kind of like the 144,000 legend. They are not SUPER PREACHERS ad never were, nowhere in the bible says that but it's become legend. Likewise, Galatians chapter 3 is just the opposite (if one takes time to REREAD and PONDER it) what many people discern. It's not Paul saying the Jews and Gentiles are ONE, reread it with this challenge, think of it going as Paul trying to rebuke the Galatians for thinking they had to ACT LIKE Jews (keeping the Law, etc.) in order to make it to Heaven. Thus he says WHO HAS BEWITCHED YOU, that being born in the SPIRIT you have now become of the FLESH (Law). Then he goes on and comparing THE LAW ve THE PROMISE. How the Law only came 430 years AFTER the Promise. How the Law can only condemn, it can't save you, ONLY FAITH saves us he tells them.
Now, proof comes at the very end and no one sees it, or many don't see it. Paul tells them there is neither Jews nor Greeks(Gentiles), there is neither slave nor free man there is neither MALE nor FEMALE. So, what is Paul saying here? Are we all ONE UNISEX? Of course not, AND we are not all ONE peoples, we are Jew and Gentile (Greek) still, just like we still have MALE & FEMALES !! Paul was rebuking them for trying to be Jews (via keeping THE LAW instead of living BY FAITH), thus he is telling them, HEY Galatians, what is wrong with you guys? Why are you trying to be Jews and to serve God on the Flesh by keeping the Laws? God doesn't see your NATIONALITY and more than H sees OUR SEX, He accepts ALL by Faith, be ye Jews, Greeks, Woman, Men, Slaves or Freemen, so STOP trying to be Jews and STOP trying to keep those arcane Laws, we live by FAITH ALONE.
So, when I see these guys say there is neither Jew nor Greek, and they do not even ponder why it was said, nor realize that there are still MALE and FEMALE which proves the juxtaposition of Paul was just the opposite of what many people infer.
So, yes, there will be Old Jewish Saints raised at the very end, then at the Rapture, which is Christs bride, there will be both Jew and Gentile raptured to marry Jesus IN HEAVEN whilst the Beast is raveging the earth, that is how we return with Jesus to MEET the Beast and his inions back on earth. There will be Jews AND Gentiles saved after the Rapture, 1/3 of the Jews come to Christ at this time, whilst 2/3 will refuse to repent. The Martyrs under the Altar are Gentiles who repented AFTER the Rapture. Thus both Jews and Gentiles ar in the Church/Bride and both Jews and Gentiles are saved during the 70th week, but in ALL CASES, no one is saved except BY FAITH ALONE. Thus in God's Eyes, there is neither Jew nor Gentie, Male nor Female, He sees ONLY OR FAITH, our Spirit man is neither Male nor Femake, Jew nor Greek, BUT There will be a Jewish Nation that Jesus rules from fir 1000 years, he brings in TE KINGDOM via the Jewish Nation, that's a fact. And the after 1000 years Satan is loosed again, and decieves mankind again.
God Bless