Revelation Timeline

[GaryA]

Yes I do understand that we have been in the last days since John !!!

However Revelation was given to John when he was exiled on the island of Patmos, and was told these were things to come in the future, not things that existed during his time !!!

Also what makes you think apostles still don't exist ???

If you are going by the definition that they had to personally see and walk with Christ, that is false because the Word of God names a number of other people who became apostles under Paul, Peter, and John years later after Jesus had already ascended.

Apostle Paul himself did not walk with Christ, he was named an apostle years later !!!

I believe you missed my point...

Let me re-state it:

Yet while the original apostles where still alive on the earth, they called the time they lived in - at that time - "the last days" - and wrote it into scripture.

Better?

 

[DP]

Revelation 11:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. [SUP]2[/SUP] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


This has to be speaking of the current temple ( at the time John received and wrote the Revelation ), not a future one. It speaks of a "God-sanctioned" temple; since the resurrection of Christ, there can-not-be and will-not-be any more such built-by-the-hands-of-men temples!

Remember, that is a vision John is being given about the end of this world, not his day. It's the timing just prior to the final 7th Trumpet. And on the 7th Trumpet, this present world is all over including the Antichrist's reign (see Rev.10 about the voice of the 7th angel).

As for plans to build the temple again, see The Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website. They've been preparing the materials and articles of worship for over a decade now.

So -- you believe that there will be another [ future, third ] "God-sanctioned" temple -- which will be 'desecrated' and then "trodden under foot" for [ either 42 months or 2300 days ] - and then "cleansed" after that?

Then what? Will the Jews offer animal sacrifices in it?

I do not believe it will be "God sanctioned" as you say. But yes, I DEFINITELY believe per Scripture they will yet build another temple in Jerusalem, and... start the old covenant animal sacrifices again, the Levitical priesthood again, and all that. Sounds like you're in the same kind of Church PlainWord has been attending. Amazing that they aren't watching this event unfold. The Temple Mount Faithful have for a decade now ALREADY BEEN DOING ANIMAL SACRIFICES, on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount.

Could you believe it, some who claim to be Christians in the U.S. are setup to supply heifers to them:

Gold From Christians To Raise Red Heifers For Israel

Readings | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS

This is past history -- circa 70 A.D.

Remember, this happens [ "some time" / well ] before 'the time of the end' of Daniel 11:35 - which is 'yet for a time appointed'.

Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. served as a 'type' for that "vile person" in Dan.11, almost fulfilled it to a tee. The final Antichrist is who that's really about. Antiochus IV was already dead when our Lord Jesus gave His warning about the "abomination of desolation" standing in the "holy place". The Romans couldn't accomplish because the 2nd temple burned down before they could capture it (which had been their intention per Josephus).

Not another [ third ] temple, but the [ second ] temple that was standing when John received and wrote the Revelation.

Prophecy for the "end in Jerusalem" does not require a standing Jewish temple; the "end in Jerusalem" is called by the name of 'Armageddon'...

Sorry, but another temple is required in order fulfill both the Dan.11 prophecy about the "abomination of desolation" idol for the end, and the events in Jerusalem about a temple in the Rev.11 chapter. Have you never read this? -

Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:


13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

This next temple WILL NOT... be that one of Zech.6, because that one is about our Lord Jesus, "The BRANCH" being one of His symbolic names in the OT. But read that as if you were an Orthodox Jew; their view of that is different than ours, and which is why Christian brethren need to be aware of this coming event by the Orthodox Jews, as the first Messiah coming is who they will accept as The Christ-Messiah, but we know will be a pseudo-Christ per the Greek in our Lord Jesus' warning of Matt.24:23-26. That's the same false one Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2:3-4, and John in Rev.13:11 forward called the "another beast".

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 11:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. [SUP]2[/SUP] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


This has to be speaking of the current temple ( at the time John received and wrote the Revelation ), not a future one. It speaks of a "God-sanctioned" temple; since the resurrection of Christ, there can-not-be and will-not-be any more such built-by-the-hands-of-men temples!

The wording of verse 1 above indicates very blatantly - and unmistakably - that it is referring to a "God-sanctioned" temple. This is not an option. This passage is referring to a "God-sanctioned" temple. There are no two ways about it. If you are going to believe that this passage is talking about a future temple, then you must believe that God will approve it. I am saying that there is no way that God will do any such of a thing...

 

[DP]

The wording of verse 1 above indicates very blatantly - and unmistakably - that it is referring to a "God-sanctioned" temple. This is not an option. This passage is referring to a "God-sanctioned" temple. There are no two ways about it. If you are going to believe that this passage is talking about a future temple, then you must believe that God will approve it. I am saying that there is no way that God will do any such of a thing...

If it were sanctioned by our Heavenly Father Himself, then it would not be destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. Yet what did Jesus say about not one stone will be standing on top of another on that day? (Yes, I know you will probably say our Lord Jesus was referring to the destruction in 70 A.D. by the Romans, but actually He was talking about the 7 signs of the end that He also gave later in the Rev.6 parallel. Those Seals are for the final generation of the fig tree, and I believe we are in that final generation on earth today).

But the temple in Jerusalem built by Israel has always been known as 'the temple of God'. Even Apostle Paul used that phrase in 2 Thess.2:4 about the false Christ that comes to sit in it and proclaim himself as God.

So will the Orthodox Jews treat that next temple in Jerusalem as 'the temple of God'? YES! and there's the rub. Wycliffe understood this to be about a standing temple in Jerusalem in that time, and I agree because of what the Scriptures reveal.

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

That part in bold is easy to miss. A measuring reed is from a plant that is hollow inside, thin, and was even used as a writing pen. But a "rod" is usually something larger, used for walking or scourging, i.e., whipping rod (like Isaiah 10:5). In the Book of Ezekiel, he is given a 'reed' also and told to go measure God's House, the Milliennial sanctuary. It is not compared to a "rod" though. Only those two Scripture examples, here in Rev.11:1 and in Ezekiel chapters 40 through 42 is mentioned this idea of go measure... the temple.

Ezek 43:10
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
KJV

In the next Ezek.43 verse, God tells Ezekiel if they (house of Israel) are ashamed of all they have done, then show them the form of the House.

What am I driving at from what God shows in His Word about that measuring idea in Rev.11 and Ezekiel? It's a comparison, not just a technical comparison only, but for the time of it manifesting.

Here in Rev.11, this temple is set during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, leading up to the final 7th trumpet when this present world will be over. That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe begins back at Rev.9:12 to the end of that Chapter, and then picks up here again at Rev.11:1.

This temple of Rev.11 is not comparable to God's House in Ezekiel which is Christ's literal physical Millennial temple on earth that He will build (Zech.6, remember about The BRANCH).

We're also shown the outer court is left out, for it's given to the Gentiles, and what do they do during this 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing? They tread the holy city for 42 months, which is the time of the dragon's reign per Rev.13, and is also equal to the 1260 days God's two witnesses we're shown there that prophesy against those events in Jerusalem during the tribulation.

That's why that temple is shown to John there in that Rev.11 Chapter with those events of the tribulation. It's because the pseudo-Christ is coming there to sit in it and play our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

Your statement "there is no temple" is easy to say, since the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. But your last statement you had to have your tongue to the side, because Revelation 11 reveals a standing temple during the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and the AOD from the Book of Daniel, especially Dan.11, is about an idol being placed at or in a temple built by the Jews. Antiochus IV even served as the blueprint for that final future event of Dan.11.

I think we have been over this before. Revelation is a highly spiritual book filled with symbols. In the absence of a direct prophesy of the construction of a third temple you cannot assume one is built based solely on Rev 11. The 2 witnesses are symbolic (lampstands and olive trees). Fire (from their mouths) is symbolic. Do you measure people or count people? The "beast who crawls up from the earth" is symbolic. Sodom and Egypt are symbolic. We are told they are spiritual. Sending gifts is symbolic. In 3.5 days is there really time to send gifts back and forth? I would suggest also that the 3.5 days are symbolic and represent years.

I think you should read Dan 11 again. There is no mention of a temple anywhere in the entire chapter.

“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

First you must recognize that the word "sacrifices" is in italics. This word was added by the translators and does not exist in the original text. I believe the "daily" actually refers to prayer and not sacrifices. Some scholars believe that this describes perfectly Antiochus and that Jesus was speaking of a type, like Antiochus in Mat 24. As we know, there are no sacrifices being performed in Israel and the world would likely not allow this practice to start again. Besides, God may not allow this practice to start again as Christ was the final sacrifice for the people.

However, prayer rituals still very much exist in Israel at a Holy Site (Wailing Wall). The Jews are not allowed on the Temple Mount for prayer today. Things could change but until they do, projecting a third temple is very speculative and I would argue more so than my view that this temple is spiritual.

Declaring where... that AOD event is to occur per the Book of Daniel is not... a bold statement. This is why our Lord Jesus specifically referred to the Book of Daniel when He forewarned about it in His Olivet Discourse. You have no other... Biblical source for where it is to occur, which is why the Preterist doctrine you espouse has to try and change the meaning of that "abomination of desolation" to mean some other idea instead of an idol abomination that desolates the sanctuary as per the Book of Daniel.

I am not a preterist. Many of the things in Daniel are in the past but I still see some future events. All of Chapter 12 is future and the end of Chapter 11 is future. Also, the end of Chapter 7 appears to be future and ties to Rev 13. (I actually think Rev 13 is starting now). However, I do see all of Dan 9 as completed. I do not see a 2,000 year gap there. A reasonable explanation exists which makes all 70 weeks (69.5 actually) as happening consecutively and uninterrupted. This view makes a lot more sense than inserting a 2,000 year break which is not taught as many do. Yet, the idea of inserting a 2,000 year gap is considered mainstream thinking by most. Crazy, if you ask me.

The big mystery is what is the AoD and when does it happen? Many good Christians (Gary included) think the AoD happened when Titus destroyed the Temple. I do not share this view. Still others think the AoD was Antiochus. I don't subscribe to this view either as it doesn't make sense for Christ to refer to an event in the past.

When studying prophesy, I think it prudent to look for past fulfillment. When considering the AoD to see if it could have been in our past, 3 theories exist. 1) Antiochus, 2) Temple AD 70, 3) Dome of the Rock 688 AD. Of these, the Dome of the Rock makes the most sense to me. It is after the Olivet, thus future to the disciples. It is Islamic in nature. It desecrates the holy site of the Temple Mount. However, not all of the timing works. So, I am totally open to a future AoD to us. One thing is clear. It will be Muslim and it will pose a threat or trigger massive tribulation to all those in Judea.

 

[DP]

I think we have been over this before. Revelation is a highly spiritual book filled with symbols. In the absence of a direct prophesy of the construction of a third temple you cannot assume one is built based solely on Rev 11. The 2 witnesses are symbolic (lampstands and olive trees). Fire (from their mouths) is symbolic. Do you measure people or count people? The "beast who crawls up from the earth" is symbolic. Sodom and Egypt are symbolic. We are told they are spiritual. Sending gifts is symbolic. In 3.5 days is there really time to send gifts back and forth? I would suggest also that the 3.5 days are symbolic and represent years.

I think you should read Dan 11 again. There is no mention of a temple anywhere in the entire chapter.

“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

First you must recognize that the word "sacrifices" is in italics. This word was added by the translators and does not exist in the original text. I believe the "daily" actually refers to prayer and not sacrifices. Some scholars believe that this describes perfectly Antiochus and that Jesus was speaking of a type, like Antiochus in Mat 24. As we know, there are no sacrifices being performed in Israel and the world would likely not allow this practice to start again. Besides, God may not allow this practice to start again as Christ was the final sacrifice for the people.

However, prayer rituals still very much exist in Israel at a Holy Site (Wailing Wall). The Jews are not allowed on the Temple Mount for prayer today. Things could change but until they do, projecting a third temple is very speculative and I would argue more so than my view that this temple is spiritual.



I am not a preterist. Many of the things in Daniel are in the past but I still see some future events. All of Chapter 12 is future and the end of Chapter 11 is future. Also, the end of Chapter 7 appears to be future and ties to Rev 13. (I actually think Rev 13 is starting now). However, I do see all of Dan 9 as completed. I do not see a 2,000 year gap there. A reasonable explanation exists which makes all 70 weeks (69.5 actually) as happening consecutively and uninterrupted. This view makes a lot more sense than inserting a 2,000 year break which is not taught as many do. Yet, the idea of inserting a 2,000 year gap is considered mainstream thinking by most. Crazy, if you ask me.

The big mystery is what is the AoD and when does it happen? Many good Christians (Gary included) think the AoD happened when Titus destroyed the Temple. I do not share this view. Still others think the AoD was Antiochus. I don't subscribe to this view either as it doesn't make sense for Christ to refer to an event in the past.

When studying prophesy, I think it prudent to look for past fulfillment. When considering the AoD to see if it could have been in our past, 3 theories exist. 1) Antiochus, 2) Temple AD 70, 3) Dome of the Rock 688 AD. Of these, the Dome of the Rock makes the most sense to me. It is after the Olivet, thus future to the disciples. It is Islamic in nature. It desecrates the holy site of the Temple Mount. However, not all of the timing works. So, I am totally open to a future AoD to us. One thing is clear. It will be Muslim and it will pose a threat or trigger massive tribulation to all those in Judea.

Dan.9:27 showed you about the "oblation" which is about the evening sacrifices, as that is what the Dan.11:31 Scripture is about, and just skipping over the word "sanctuary" in Dan.11:31 on purpose is also inexcusable, showing you'd rather stick to the doctrine of man you're on instead heeding the Scripture as written. I'm done talking with you about it. I've already covered those points, more than once.

 

[PlainWord]

You forgot this version of that Scripture...

Luke 21:21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV


Do you think our Lord Jesus was speaking that just to Israelites in those far off countries, telling them not to go to Jerusalem/Judea in that time? He was speaking that to His Church, all of His Church that will still be alive on earth at that timing, even in far off countries.

This is saying basically, "If you are in Judea, GET OUT. If you are outside of Judea, stay outside and do not enter Judea during the Great Tribulation." Why? Because bad stuff is about to happen in Judah (Today's Israel), not the Church. There was no church at the time the Olivet was given.

 

[PlainWord]

Amos 9:11

"On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages: I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old.

This isn't speaking of rebuilding the temple, LOL. Is that what you think it means???. The Tabernacle of David is the HOUSE of David. Remember, David didn't build the first temple, Solomon did. Metaphorically, the Tabernacle of David (House of David) had fallen and was in disrepair. David's House was a ruined shelter, incapable of protecting the people. "As in the days of old" reflects the nostalgia of Israel's glory days as under David, they were the most powerful nation on earth.

 

[PlainWord]

Dan.9:27 showed you about the "oblation" which is about the evening sacrifices, as that is what the Dan.11:31 Scripture is about, and just skipping over the word "sanctuary" in Dan.11:31 on purpose is also inexcusable, showing you'd rather stick to the doctrine of man you're on instead heeding the Scripture as written. I'm done talking with you about it. I've already covered those points, more than once.

This:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

is NOT this:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 9:27 actually proves that there will not be a third man-made temple. Look at it again:

he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It will be desolate until the consummation is poured out on the desolate. As I proved earlier as taught by Paul in Gal 4, the Desolate of the Children of Ishmael. The Consummation is when they are consumed by fire.

Revelation 14:10

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Thus the desolation will continue until this happens. I've covered this with you before too so let's talk about something else then.

 

[PlainWord]

Let's see if we can build some consensus about the Man of Sin AKA AntiChrist:

In Islamic theology, the Mahdi will appear before the judgment. I believe this is the Man of Sin. Below are excerpts from a Muslim site which deals with Al Mahdi and the characteristics of this "man." Doesn't this sounds similar to Rev 13 and the Battles between North and South in Dan 11 and Ezek 38-39?

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa'id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)

The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt).
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4085)

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

After the death of a Ruler there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madina) and go to Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad and Maqaame Ibraheem, and forcefully pledge their allegiance to him.
Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.
On seeing this, the Abdaals of Shaam as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb. Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat.
(Abu Dawood)

A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them.
(Sahih Muslim)


According to these reliable, authentic, and universally accepted narrations, Mahdi will:

1. Be from among the family of Prophet[SUP](SAW)[/SUP], among the descendants of Fatima[SUP](RA)[/SUP];
2. Have a broad forehead and pointed noise;
3. Appear in one night;
4. Appear just before the day of judgment;
5. Have same name as hazrat Muhammad[SUP](SAW)[/SUP];
6. Escape from Madina to Makkah where people will pledge allegiance to him;
7. Receive pledge and help of Iraqi people;
8. Fight in battles;
9. Rule over the Arabs for seven years according to Sunnah;
10. Spread justice and equity on earth;
11. Eradicate tyranny and oppression;
12. Lead a prayer in Mekkah which Jesus[SUP](pbuh)[/SUP] will follow in;
13. NOT be the same individual as the Promised Messiah (Jesus).

My friends. The Deceived are the Muslims, the followers of Islam. They are the ones who persecute Israel and Christians. They have the False Prophet and worship the False god. They are the religion which is awaiting a mystical man to unite them. Although not mentioned above, attacking Israel is certainly the goal of many of them.

 

[GaryA]

If it were sanctioned by our Heavenly Father Himself, then it would not be destroyed on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

Was the [ second ] temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D. sanctioned by God?

Was the [ first ] temple that Solomon built sanctioned by God? What happened to it?

You are not making any sense...

Yet what did Jesus say about not one stone will be standing on top of another on that day? (Yes, I know you will probably say our Lord Jesus was referring to the destruction in 70 A.D. by the Romans, but actually He was talking about the 7 signs of the end that He also gave later in the Rev.6 parallel. Those Seals are for the final generation of the fig tree, and I believe we are in that final generation on earth today).

"No 'probably' about it..."

His prophetic statements in the Olivet Discourse were about the events of the next ~2000 years.

Four of those Seals have already been "opened" ( in event terms ).

All of Revelation is not just about the very-last-small-span-of-time-moments of "the very end"; the span of time represented by all of Revelation ( collectively ) is ~2000 years ( not 7 years ). Some of Revelation prophesy has already come to pass...

But the temple in Jerusalem built by Israel has always been known as 'the temple of God'.

So will the Orthodox Jews treat that next temple in Jerusalem as 'the temple of God'? YES!

I am not talking about the opinions of "men" or "the Jews" -- I am talking about what the Holy Scriptures say. And, if the Holy Scriptures describe the temple in Revelation 11:1 as:

the temple of God

- then I believe it is talking about a bonifide real actual sanctioned-by-God temple.

Not only that, but the "sense and tense" of the verse is that it is a real-time instruction for John to do present-time measurements -- i.e., it is talking about a temple that existed at the very time that John was receiving the prophecy.

 

[GaryA]

A reasonable explanation exists which makes all 70 weeks (69.5 actually) as happening consecutively and uninterrupted. This view makes a lot more sense than inserting a 2,000 year break which is not taught as many do. Yet, the idea of inserting a 2,000 year gap is considered mainstream thinking by most. Crazy, if you ask me.

No -- it was a full 70 weeks - ending ~3.5 years after the resurrection of Christ. The last half-of-a-week was simply part of the time-frame given to fully-and-completely accomplish the things listed in Daniel 9:24.

The end of the 70 weeks ( 490 [ continuous ] years ) marks the end of the 'times of the Jews' and the beginning of the 'times of the gentiles'.

This is very important to remember...

 

[GaryA]

Not only that, but the "sense and tense" of the verse is that it is a real-time instruction for John to do present-time measurements -- i.e., it is talking about a temple that existed at the very time that John was receiving the prophecy.

And, this is a significant part of why I believe that Revelation was written before the events of 70 A.D. and not some time after...

 

[GaryA]

Sorry have no clue as to what ****BUMP **** means.

The idea of 'bump' - as in, "bump it back to the top" - is used to "bring back into focus" something that has been left to fade away into the more-distant-past-posts of a thread.

 

[DP]

Was the [ second ] temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D. sanctioned by God?

Was the [ first ] temple that Solomon built sanctioned by God? What happened to it?

You are not making any sense...

Yes, the 1st and 2nd temples were sanctioned by God. This next one the Jews will build for the tribulation is not, and I don't mean that in the God is in control of all things sense, for He is. I mean it in the sense that the New Covenant is what is in effect today since Jesus died on the cross, so the temple the Jews will build in our day is against that, for their purpose in building it is to keep the old covenant, not the New Covenant. Jesus nailed the old covenant to His cross.

But there still will... be a sanctuary built by Christ Jesus when He comes, which is the layout given in Ezekiel 40 forward called God's house:

John 14:2
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
KJV


How many times have brethren used that "My Father's house" about the "mansions" but didn't know it's about the Ezekiel layout in Ezekiel 40 forward?

"No 'probably' about it..."

His prophetic statements in the Olivet Discourse were about the events of the next ~2000 years.

Four of those Seals have already been "opened" ( in event terms ).

All of Revelation is not just about the very-last-small-span-of-time-moments of "the very end"; the span of time represented by all of Revelation ( collectively ) is ~2000 years ( not 7 years ). Some of Revelation prophesy has already come to pass...

Well, that would go against what He said about the generation that would see all those things, don't ya think?

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV


That Scripture means the generation that will see all those signs He gave won't end until all those things happen in their generation.

So that does not mean those events were to spread out over 2000 years of time through many generations, but only within one generation, a final generation on earth. And just to be clear, my generation is one, my father's generation is another, my grandfather's generation is another, etc. That's how He meant generation there, the era one lives in.

That means then, the sign He gave about not one stone standing on top of another at the Temple Mount complex is actually to occur in the final generation, the generation that will see His 2nd coming. We can think of the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple and Jerusalem as a 'type' only for the final destruction on the "day of the Lord", the day of our Lord Jesus' second coming back to Jerusalem.

There's been something like 27 sieges of Jerusalem throughout its history, and there is to be a 28th siege, a final one, which will end on the day of His second coming when He pours out His cup of wrath upon the wicked (Zeph.3:8; Rev.16:16-21; Zech.14).

I am not talking about the opinions of "men" or "the Jews" -- I am talking about what the Holy Scriptures say. And, if the Holy Scriptures describe the temple in Revelation 11:1 as:

the temple of God

- then I believe it is talking about a bonifide real actual sanctioned-by-God temple.

But if this next temple the Jews build in our day with sacrifices and old covenant worship were sanctioned by God, then it would mean the New Covenant was false. Don't you understand that? Could we get technical and just say it's sanctioned by God in the sense to fulfill the endtime tribulation prophecy? Yeah, we could, but man, wouldn't that be awkward?

What I don't think you understand is why Scripture labels it "the temple of God", when it's going to be about false worship. That's the idea I'm actually seeing you struggling with.

Per 2 Thess.2:4, who can deny Apostle Paul was speaking of false worship when he forewarned about the 'man of sin' coming to sit in "the temple of God" proclaiming himself as God?

Even if you believe Paul's "temple of God" is only a symbol put for the spiritual temple idea of Ephesians, that's still a problem, because how could Christ's spiritual temple of His Body be subject to false worship? It cannot, as those who fall away are simply cut off from His spiritual temple and foundation. No man can desecrate Christ's spiritual temple, because its foundation is built upon the OT prophets, His Apostles, and Himself as The Chief Cornerstone.

So for what reason did our Lord Jesus allow that "temple of God" label to be used involving false worship? To show His people what they have done against Him, because this final time won't be the only time that His people allowed false worship into the temple at Jerusalem.

Not only that, but the "sense and tense" of the verse is that it is a real-time instruction for John to do present-time measurements -- i.e., it is talking about a temple that existed at the very time that John was receiving the prophecy.

I've already shown what timing that Rev.11:1-2 Scripture is for. It's tribulation timing. And it's not difficult at all to keep reading Rev.11 about God's two witnesses arriving there in Jerusalem to prophecy for 1260 days against the beast that will ascend up out of the bottomless pit to kill them. Jesus gave us the last 3 trumpets with 3 Woes attached to them so we couldn't mess up that order of events. With the 7th trumpet we're shown all the kingdoms of this world become The Father's and His, meaning His reign in effect at that point. That's not difficult to understand either.

 

[DP]

This is saying basically, "If you are in Judea, GET OUT. If you are outside of Judea, stay outside and do not enter Judea during the Great Tribulation." Why? Because bad stuff is about to happen in Judah (Today's Israel), not the Church. There was no church at the time the Olivet was given.

Yeah, but what kind of bad stuff was He referring to?

Luke 21:20
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
KJV

Luke 21:21-22
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV



That's the event of the battle of Armageddon, the event when God will gather those armies around Jerusalem in order to pour out His cup of wrath upon them, hail, fire, and brimstone, and they will be destroyed at an instant. There's to be a specific judgment by the "plague" of Zech.14 upon those who come up against Jerusalem. Their tongues will melt in their mouths.

But didn't you read what Peter taught in 2 Pet.3 about God's consuming fire ending this present world? Peter compared that to God's destruction on the earth by a flood. Was the flood of Noah's day only a local flood just to a specific area of the earth? If not, then why think God's consuming fire will only be local to a small part of the earth?

 

[DP]

This:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

is NOT this:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 9:27 actually proves that there will not be a third man-made temple. Look at it again:

he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It will be desolate until the consummation is poured out on the desolate. As I proved earlier as taught by Paul in Gal 4, the Desolate of the Children of Ishmael. The Consummation is when they are consumed by fire.

But it is... the same subject. In Dan.11:23, the "vile person" makes a "league" with a small group of men in Jerusalem. And Dan.11:30 shows us it's the old covenant instituted again with "holy covenant". Dan.11:31 shows us an existing "sanctuary".

Was there more than one "holy covenant" existing in Daniel's days? No. There was only the old covenant. What did it require? Either a tabernacle or temple with daily sacrifices, and those were to be continual, which is what the Hebrew for "daily" in Dan.11:31 signifies. And the Hebrew for sacrifice and the oblation in Dan.9:27 is written. Same subject, just a bit more info given.

The Revised Standard version has it this way:

Dan 9:26-27
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
RSV

What is the decreed end of that "desolator"? It's the event of 2 Thess.2 with our Lord Jesus coming to destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming.

What does that false one make desolate? The "temple of God" that Apostle Paul foretold us of in 2 Thess.2:4. That was also the subject our Lord Jesus was warning us about when He quoted about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. It's specifically about Christ's Revelation through John of the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward who comes with two horns LIKE a Lamb, but will speak as a dragon, and he sets up an "image of the beast" for all to bow to in false worship, or be killed.

So you cannot apply some desolation by destruction to that "abomination of desolation" event, because it's about false worship desecrating a temple in Jerusalem, i.e., the "sanctuary" of Dan.11:31.

 

[DP]

Let's see if we can build some consensus about the Man of Sin AKA AntiChrist:

In Islamic theology, the Mahdi will appear before the judgment. I believe this is the Man of Sin. Below are excerpts from a Muslim site which deals with Al Mahdi and the characteristics of this "man." Doesn't this sounds similar to Rev 13 and the Battles between North and South in Dan 11 and Ezek 38-39?

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa'id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)

The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt).
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4085)

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

After the death of a Ruler there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madina) and go to Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad and Maqaame Ibraheem, and forcefully pledge their allegiance to him.
Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.
On seeing this, the Abdaals of Shaam as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb. Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat.
(Abu Dawood)

A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them.
(Sahih Muslim)


According to these reliable, authentic, and universally accepted narrations, Mahdi will:

1. Be from among the family of Prophet[SUP](SAW)[/SUP], among the descendants of Fatima[SUP](RA)[/SUP];
2. Have a broad forehead and pointed noise;
3. Appear in one night;
4. Appear just before the day of judgment;
5. Have same name as hazrat Muhammad[SUP](SAW)[/SUP];
6. Escape from Madina to Makkah where people will pledge allegiance to him;
7. Receive pledge and help of Iraqi people;
8. Fight in battles;
9. Rule over the Arabs for seven years according to Sunnah;
10. Spread justice and equity on earth;
11. Eradicate tyranny and oppression;
12. Lead a prayer in Mekkah which Jesus[SUP](pbuh)[/SUP] will follow in;
13. NOT be the same individual as the Promised Messiah (Jesus).

My friends. The Deceived are the Muslims, the followers of Islam. They are the ones who persecute Israel and Christians. They have the False Prophet and worship the False god. They are the religion which is awaiting a mystical man to unite them. Although not mentioned above, attacking Israel is certainly the goal of many of them.

Sorry, I believe my Heavenly Father's Word over theirs.

The pseudo-Christ of Matt.24:23-26 to come will be the devil himself, playing God in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. Islam does NOT... reign over the servants of Satan here on earth, for they are only USING Islam to bring in their god, Lucifer, to power in the end as their "king of the world". (This is what Satan and his angels will be cast down to this earth for at the end, per Rev.12:7 forward.)

The people of Ishmael will most likely believe... the devil is their Mahdi. The Orthodox Jews will believe he is The Messiah-The Christ. And many Christian brethren will believe he is our Lord Jesus Christ. All others will believe he is God.

This is why a specific destruction will be upon the Temple Mount in Judea on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, instead of it being upon Mecca.

 

[GaryA]

What I don't think you understand is why Scripture labels it "the temple of God", when it's going to be about false worship. That's the idea I'm actually seeing you struggling with.

I'm not struggling with anything. You are assuming things that are not in the scriptures.

 

[DP]

I'm not struggling with anything. You are assuming things that are not in the scriptures.

That's just your opinion. You've yet to prove my understanding about it is wrong. Let's see you stand up like a child of God and prove me wrong. Of course, that means by God's Word, not just you.