REVELATION

[abcdef]

Hello abcdef and Yashua,

The 4th beast, the legs of iron, was Rome.

The iron is still with us today.

It must be, because the iron extends to the stone strike, without a break.

So the nation of iron is with us today, from the invasion of Israel, until today.

Who is it, then, and now?

(Vatican)

The feet with the ten toes made of partly iron and partly baked clay, is an extension of the 4th beast which is yet future.

The Roman Empire fell in 476 ad, that is when the period of the toes began.

The 10 toes are symbolic of complete division,

Will you switch from symbolic to literal, in a passage that is clearly symbolized?

Those ten toes are synonymous with the ten horns on the beast, which are those ten kings who will give their power and authority to the beast, the antichrist.

Yes, but the toes are still iron, Rome.

The Antichrist is one of the horns, the little horn Dan 7, the 8th head of Rev 17.

He is Roman, Caesar/The Bishop of Rome (BoR), he is the Antichrist.

(When you say that he is future, You deny 1900 yrs of persecution by Rome on Israel)

The rock striking the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, represents the dismantling of all human government,

The statue represents the nations that rule over Israel, not the whole planet.

You know that it can't be the "dismantling of all human government" because Magog rebels at the end of the mill.

Gentile nations surround Jerusalem Rev 20.

as the pieces will be like chaff on a threshing floor, blown away by the wind, without leaving a trace.

This is a picture of the last judgement, also seen in Rev 20.

The chaff is the souls of unbelievers, the parts of the statue of nations that were not part of Israel.

This smashing will be accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God is gong to carry out his wrath upon the earth leading up to Christ's return to end the age.

The stone striking is the fire from heaven of Rev 20.

This is shown by the earth being "filled" in Dan 2, (the stone fills the earth, becomes the new earth, meaning that the old earth is passed away).

Rev 20 shows the same events, fire from heaven, judgement, the old earth passes, the new earth.

 

[Yahshua]

Hello abcdef and Yashua,

The 4th beast, the legs of iron, was Rome. The feet with the ten toes made of partly iron and partly baked clay, is an extension of the 4th beast which is yet future. Those ten toes are synonymous with the ten horns on the beast, which are those ten kings who will give their power and authority to the beast, the antichrist.



The rock striking the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, represents the dismantling of all human government, as the pieces will be like chaff on a threshing floor, blown away by the wind, without leaving a trace. This smashing will be accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God is gong to carry out his wrath upon the earth leading up to Christ's return to end the age.

Hi Ahwatukee. I like the way you articulated the portion I highlighted. Dismantling human governments. That's a great word to describe it.

Here is how I see it.

The statue represents the nations that rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem. Babylon, etc.

The legs of iron are the Roman Empire.

The iron begins when Rome invades Israel.

The legs divide when Rome splits into East and West, 234 ad approx.

When Rome falls in 476 ad, is when the period of the 10 toes begins, 10 being symbolic of complete division.

We are at the end of the statue just before the stone strikes.

==

If the iron is Rome, doesn't the iron last until the stone strikes?

There is clay with the toes, but the iron is still one piece, legs, feet, toes, one piece, one nation.

The iron nation is the same through time, Rome.

Where is this iron today?

Well, yes and no. If we consider the statue from the head to the feet, we see that each time the material changes it represents a change in the kingdom or ruling empire. So for instance, from the gold head to silver arms that represents a change...when we reach the toes we no longer see pure iron. We see "iron mixed with clay", so there's a change represented. Keeping the analogy same for toes as we have for the other section of the statue, this means the toes represent something different that is in certain ways like Rome, but in other ways not like Rome. Iron can't mix with clay so the toes can't represent the Roman empire as it was anymore.

Also, if we consider the statue's two silver arms - and even considering what you share of what the two separated legs represent - the number of appendages represents a literal number. So keeping the analogy constant, the split empire splits even further into ten smaller kingdoms (which the angel in Daniel 7 confirms for the vision of the 4th beast's 10 horns). So I don't think we can change the meaning of 10 to mean a symbolic division because we already understand the two arms and the two legs in the same vision "literally". See what I mean?

The vision is even explained to Daniel...

Daniel 2:41-43
41"In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

42"As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


So there's a divided kingdom of 10 smaller kingdoms that holds a tenuous union which has the strength and character of old Rome, but which isn't really Rome anymore, but is.


Revelation 17:11
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


As for where the Iron is today; yep it's still here. We find characteristics of Rome everywhere in our cultures:

- Government (the ideals of a republic; the election process, judicial process, etc.)
- Architecture
- We still use Roman numerals (lol)
- Most modern languages have their root in Latin, the langauge of Rome
- How we conduct our sports descended from their games
- Philosophy
- Infrastructure
- Religion (Catholicism)

...And these characteristics from the Iron empire are similar across modern nations today regardless of culture, and yet each nation still considers themselves separate and will still have conflicts with each other (clay). Remember, in Daniel 7:23 the angel explains to him that the 4th kingdom "devours the whole earth".

 

[abcdef]

Well, yes and no. If we consider the statue from the head to the feet, we see that each time the material changes it represents a change in the kingdom or ruling empire. So for instance, from the gold head to silver arms that represents a change

Yes, the change of gentile nations that rule over the people of Israel and Jerusalem.

...when we reach the toes we no longer see pure iron. We see "iron mixed with clay", so there's a change represented.

Roman and non-Roman nations that the people of Israel live under until they are restored to Jerusalem.

Keeping the analogy same for toes as we have for the other section of the statue, this means the toes represent something different that is in certain ways like Rome, but in other ways not like Rome.

Nations, Roman/RCC nations, the kingdom of the 4th beast/nation.

A religious kingdom, the image of the Roman Empire, Caesar worship/man is God,

The Roman Empire was, is (John's time), is not (the Roman Empire falls), and yet is (religious image kingdom)

Iron can't mix with clay so the toes can't represent the Roman empire as it was anymore.

I agree, so what form of the Roman Empire remained after the toes divided, Roman nation?

Also, if we consider the statue's two silver arms - and even considering what you share of what the two separated legs represent - the number of appendages represents a literal number. So keeping the analogy constant, the split empire splits even further into ten smaller kingdoms (which the angel in Daniel 7 confirms for the vision of the 4th beast's 10 horns). So I don't think we can change the meaning of 10 to mean a symbolic division because we already understand the two arms and the two legs in the same vision "literally". See what I mean?

A good point, I see what you mean.

But at what point are we in the statue?

The old Roman Empire has divided into more than 10 modern nations,

If it were literal, then there would have been 10, and only 10, until now.

Where is the end of the old Roman Empire shown in the statue, at the 10 toes dividing?

The vision is even explained to Daniel...
Daniel 2:41-43
41"In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

42"As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

So there's a divided kingdom of 10 smaller kingdoms that holds a tenuous union which has the strength and character of old Rome, but which isn't really Rome anymore, but is.

The RCC?

Revelation 17:11
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

John said that the 6th head "is", and the 7th to come, then the 8th.

When the 7th dies, that is the end of the Roman Empire, it divides.

The 8th head is during the time of the 10 kings, after the empire falls.

The 8th head and the 10 kings last from the fall of the Roman Empire until the stone strikes, 476 ad until not long from now.

Perdition, spiritual destruction, eternal hell.

As for where the Iron is today; yep it's still here. We find characteristics of Rome everywhere in our cultures:

- Government (the ideals of a republic; the election process, judicial process, etc.)
- Architecture
- We still use Roman numerals (lol)
- Most modern languages have their root in Latin, the langauge of Rome
- How we conduct our sports descended from their games
- Philosophy
- Infrastructure
- Religion (Catholicism)

RCC, There is only one Holy Father, and He is in heaven.

...And these characteristics from the Iron empire are similar across modern nations today regardless of culture, and yet each nation still considers themselves separate and will still have conflicts with each other (clay). Remember, in Daniel 7:23 the angel explains to him that the 4th kingdom "devours the whole earth".

When this was written to Israel in Babylon,

Israel is the whole world and Jerusalem is it's capital.

The statue shows the gentile nations that rule Israel and Jerusalem, until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, 1967.

It is the whole earth of Israel, not the planet.

 

[OneFaith]

I know it is a large, debated topic. But I wanted to start a thread for people to freely share their thoughts, convictions and questions etc on the last book given to us by the last surviving apostle at the time...John.

Exiled and a prisoner on the island of Patmos, he received this message.

Let's hear it, y'all.

When my daughter read this book she said, "Wow, I never want to sin again."

 

[Yahshua]

A good point, I see what you mean.

But at what point are we in the statue?

The old Roman Empire has divided into more than 10 modern nations,

If it were literal, then there would have been 10, and only 10, until now.

Where is the end of the old Roman Empire shown in the statue, at the 10 toes dividing?

Do we really have more than 10?

If we consider an Old Testament pattern for a second, remember when God told Israel to "Completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites" (Deut 20:17)? Well even though each of these groups were listed as their own nation, they were all still considered Canaanites because they all came from Ham's son Canaan and had his basic characteristics. So a group can separate even further but still be considered of it's original group.

Likewise, after the Roman empire finally ended, there was still the "holy" RCC but also 10 distinct nations/kingdoms were formed...

Old Roman Empire:



Divided Kingdoms:

1. Heruli
2. Franks (French)
3. Ostrigoths
4. Lombards (Italians)
5. Vandals
6. Visigoths (Spanish)
7. Anglosaxons (English)
8. Alamanni (Germany)
9. Burgundian (Swiss)
10. Suevi (Portuguese
11. RCC (Papacy; little horn)

Notice these 10 kingdoms cover the same territory as the old empire. Now if we tie Daniel 2 to Daniel 7, we can make the following associations:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Daniel 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Daniel 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Statue's Iron legs[/TD]
[TD]4th beast's Iron teeth[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10 mixed toes[/TD]
[TD]10 horns[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


...We're then giving more detail about what happens to 3 of the 10 horns in Daniel 7, so we have to assume the 10 toes are literal groups. Daniel 7:8 & 24:

1. Little horn arises from the midst the 10 horns
2. He (the 11th horn) will subdue 3 kings; plucked up by the root
3. Horn has eyes of a man and speaks pompous words

Historically, the RCC (lead by the Pope) oversaw the eradication of the Heruli, Ostrogoths, and Vandals. They were wiped out. Meanwhile, the remaining nations expanded. The following is a modern map of the area..



Next, if we consider human history for a moment we know that mankind has lived through:

- discovery & settlement of newfound lands (north america & south america, austalia)
- wars for further land conquest
- transatlantic slave trade

...So these 7 remaining kingdoms - born from old Roman Empire - have spread across the globe and are still here today albeit in different nations.


The next (and probably a more important) question is, what is the beast from the earth from Revelation 13:11 since this beast:

- Exercises its power from the beast of the sea (i.e. 4th beast from Daniel)
- Causes the world to worship the image of the beast of the sea

When this was written to Israel in Babylon,

Israel is the whole world and Jerusalem is it's capital.

The statue shows the gentile nations that rule Israel and Jerusalem, until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, 1967.

It is the whole earth of Israel, not the planet.

I understand what you're getting at, and actually I don't disagree with you regarding the RCC, but what I'm saying is "it's your conclusion, plus more..."

Would you agree that Christ is Israel since he's her King (as well as because of the prophecies that link "Israel" and "first born son")? If you do, then aren't those who follow Christ also "Israel" (both the natural born Jew and the believing gentile who's grafted in)? If this is true, then "Israel" is VAST right now and indeed spread across the globe today sprinkled into every nation...and yet the gentile kingdom of Rome (in character and cultural influence) still rules over "Israel" (i.e. the people of God) and is also spread the world over.

Paul says the things that happened to Israel "were for our example to whom the end of the earth have come" (1 Cor 10:11). And Ecclesiastes 1:9 says, "what has been is what will be; what has been done is what will be done. there is nothing new under the sun". So if we put these two truths together it means the events of Israel are playing out again, but playing out again in light of what Christ established with his death and resurrection. So everything is happening again, just scaled up.

For example, have you ever noticed this pattern:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Israel[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilderness (40 years)[/TD]
[TD]Wilderness (40 days)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joshua ("Yahshua" Heb.) leads into Promise Land[/TD]
[TD]Christ (Jesus/"Yahshua" Heb.) proclaims the promised Kingdom of God is nigh[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Judges rule different tribes after Joshua[/TD]
[TD]Bishops lead different churches after Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Banners unite under King Saul's leadership[/TD]
[TD]Churches unite under Paul's ("Saul" Heb.) leadership[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Leadership given to King David[/TD]
[TD]The people of God currently await Christ's return as "Davidic/conquering King"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Everything is scaled up. This means even the trials, tribulations and even the rule of Rome over Israel would happen to citizens of the Kingdom of God in the end times. So when you say, "A religious kingdom, the image of the Roman Empire, Caesar worship/man is God", I agree. And when you say, "The Roman Empire was, is (John's time), is not (the Roman Empire falls), and yet is (religious image kingdom)" I completely agree too...but I also believe that these truths must be taken to the final level else we'll still miss it; deceived to continue focusing on "flesh and blood" instead of "principalities" (Ephesians 6:12).

If taken to the final level, I believe the beast kingdom is a spiritual kingdom in which man worships *himself* as God in God's temple (the human being); his thought being "I am self-made"; "Secular humanism". "The Body of Satan"; The Fallen Man; many members but with one spirit (the same prideful spirit of old)...and those who worship the God of Abraham are seen as threats to this kingdom and so persecute the people of God.

 

[88]

REVELATION CHAPTER 9 ------- The three Woes ( Revelation 8:13) is the last Scripture I stopped at-----Can you imagine seeing an angel flying through the sky pronouncing these Woes--- this is a message of repentance---- those who have not received the Mark of the Beast can turn to God---- that includes us Now for we are warned of Judgment----if you wait to see if the Rapture will happen before you get serious you will probably be deceived (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12)--- so turn to God now and if your lukewarm turn to God now and get extra oil (Matthew 25)---- this will be a terrible time--- you don't want to be left back when Christ comes----Another Trumpet sounds (5th)---- and what happens--- an angel (star) comes to Earth and opens The Bottomless Pit and demons like scorpions come out to sting those who are not sealed--- their sting is so bad you would rather die than live, but you won't die--- this pain, torment, and suffering will last 5 months--- the king of The Bottomless Pit is a fallen angel Abaddon/Apollyon----- more later...

 

[Ahwatukee]

REVELATION CHAPTER 9 ------- The three Woes ( Revelation 8:13) is the last Scripture I stopped at-----Can you imagine seeing an angel flying through the sky pronouncing these Woes--- this is a message of repentance---- those who have not received the Mark of the Beast can turn to God---- that includes us Now for we are warned of Judgment----if you wait to see if the Rapture will happen before you get serious you will probably be deceived (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12)--- so turn to God now and if your lukewarm turn to God now and get extra oil (Matthew 25)---- this will be a terrible time--- you don't want to be left back when Christ comes----Another Trumpet sounds (5th)---- and what happens--- an angel (star) comes to Earth and opens The Bottomless Pit and demons like scorpions come out to sting those who are not sealed--- their sting is so bad you would rather die than live, but you won't die--- this pain, torment, and suffering will last 5 months--- the king of The Bottomless Pit is a fallen angel Abaddon/Apollyon----- more later...

Greetings 88,

After the 4th trumpet is sounded, an eagle flies through mid air proclaiming the following:

"Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

I personally believe that the reason that they are referred to as "Woes" is because trumpets 5,6 & 7 are demonic in nature.

5th Trumpet/1st woe = Demonic beings resembling locusts and looking like horses prepared for battle with breast plates of iron, faces like human faces, teeth like lions teeth, hair like women's hair, wings and tails and stingers like that of a scorpion.

We know that they are not your garden variety locust and that because they are coming up out of the Abyss, and also because of their previously mentioned characteristics. They are also intelligent as they are commanded not to harm the trees or any green thing, which is what a real locust would do. In addition, they will be able to recognize the seal of God on the foreheads of the 144,000 who will be the only ones exempt from this plague of wrath.

Their king, that angel of the Abyss, is none other than the beast who once was, now is not and will come up out of the Abyss and is the one who will kill the two witnesses. He's the same one who will be the power behind the antichrist and the same one who will receive that fatal wound and who will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. - Rev.11:7, 13:3,17:8,11, 2 Thes.2:4

During the 5th trumpet, the inhabitants will seek death but won't be able to die, for death will not be in operation during that time.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe = Four evil angels currently bound in the region of the Euphrates river that have been kept there for this very hour, day, month and year, will be released and they go and gather an army of 200 million demonic beings. Somewhere, someone made the claim that the 200 million are the kings of the east. The problem with that is, there is nothing in the context that would link this army as being the armies of the kings of the east or even being human for that matter. Remember, the scripture says "they" the four angels, will be given power to kill a third of mankind. It is those angels and their army killing a third of mankind and not men killing men.

Previously at the 5th trumpet, the Abyss will have been opened and will remain open until Christ returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time, Satan is thrown in and it is at that time when it will be locked back up. I believe that it is possible that the Abyss is where this army of 200 million come from.

If we examine the horses closely, it becomes apparent that they are not your normal run-of-the-mill horses. It also becomes apparent that John is not describing some futuristic vehicle, as he refers to the mounts as horses. Now, John knows what a horse looks like. Previously, we saw that John made comparisons, "hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, something like a huge mountain all ablaze. Comparisons! But here in describing these mounts he doesn't use a comparison, he straight out calls them horses. So for all intents and purposes, these things have the bodies of horses until you get to the head, which he says resembles a lions heads. And out of these horses mouths comes fire, smoke and sulfur, with which they kill a third of mankind with.

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe = After the 5th trumpet we have the following announcement:

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come"

Likewise, after the 6th trumpet has sounded we read the following:

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

Many miss the third woe and that because it is not announced that the third woe has passed as it is with the 1st and 2nd woes as demonstrated above. But, the 3rd woe is recognizable for those who are paying attention to detail, as can be seen in the following scripture when Satan is thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth:

"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” - Rev.12:12

So there is the 3rd woe, which is Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth. When this takes place, they will be able to focus all of their malice and evil on the inhabitants of the earth, which I am thankful that neither I nor any other true believer will be here to experience.

 

[popeye]

The 144k are also called 1st fruits.

All these things,to me,leaves the theory of post trib rapture as impossible.

 

[abcdef]

Do we really have more than 10?

If we consider an Old Testament pattern for a second, remember when God told Israel to "Completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites" (Deut 20:17)? Well even though each of these groups were listed as their own nation, they were all still considered Canaanites because they all came from Ham's son Canaan and had his basic characteristics. So a group can separate even further but still be considered of it's original group.

Likewise, after the Roman empire finally ended, there was still the "holy" RCC but also 10 distinct nations/kingdoms were formed...

Old Roman Empire:
View attachment 167759

This shows the Roman Empire before it divided, both East and West.

Divided Kingdoms:
View attachment 167758

1. Heruli
2. Franks (French)
3. Ostrigoths
4. Lombards (Italians)
5. Vandals
6. Visigoths (Spanish)
7. Anglosaxons (English)
8. Alamanni (Germany)
9. Burgundian (Swiss)
10. Suevi (Portuguese
11. RCC (Papacy; little horn)

This shows the western part of the empire, after it was divided.

This shows that the western half of the empire had 10 by itself, not counting the eastern half.

If the 10 toes were literal, and there were 5 on each foot, then there should be 5 nations on the western half of the empire and 5 on the eastern half.

Notice these 10 kingdoms cover the same territory as the old empire. Now if we tie Daniel 2 to Daniel 7, we can make the following associations:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Daniel 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Daniel 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Statue's Iron legs[/TD]
[TD]4th beast's Iron teeth[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10 mixed toes[/TD]
[TD]10 horns[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I agree

...We're then giving more detail about what happens to 3 of the 10 horns in Daniel 7, so we have to assume the 10 toes are literal groups. Daniel 7:8 & 24:

The symbolic meaning of the horns being subdued is in the numbers.

The horns are nations.

The number 10 is the complete number of nations that the Roman Empire was divided into, showing the complete empire, but divided.

The little horn subdues 3 horns, this leaves 8 altogether.

7 horns and the little horn.

But just like the "7" headed beast of Rev 17, the number 7 represents an empire.

So now on the Roman beast, you have the little horn, with an new empire of it's own.

Kind of a new beast Roman Empire, but made up of nations from the old Roman Empire beast.

1. Little horn arises from the midst the 10 horns
2. He (the 11th horn) will subdue 3 kings; plucked up by the root
3. Horn has eyes of a man and speaks pompous words

Rev 17:11, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

The 8th horn is the beast that was......he existed at the beginning.

Is of the 7.......one of the 7, exists at the time of the 7.

Even he is the 8th.......From the early Roman Empire until our present time, (iron legs).

Caesar/BoR

Historically, the RCC (lead by the Pope) oversaw the eradication of the Heruli, Ostrogoths, and Vandals. They were wiped out. Meanwhile, the remaining nations expanded. The following is a modern map of the area..

View attachment 167760

This shows only the western half.

Next, if we consider human history for a moment we know that mankind has lived through:

- discovery & settlement of newfound lands (north america & south america, austalia)
- wars for further land conquest
- transatlantic slave trade

...So these 7 remaining kingdoms - born from old Roman Empire - have spread across the globe and are still here today albeit in different nations.

The center of the world is Israel.

The capital of the world is Jerusalem.

To try to expand the meaning of prophecy beyond these, to mean the whole planet,

In my opinion, will distort the meaning of the prophecies.

The next (and probably a more important) question is, what is the beast from the earth from Revelation 13:11 since this beast:

- Exercises its power from the beast of the sea (i.e. 4th beast from Daniel)
- Causes the world to worship the image of the beast of the sea

The earth beast is the religion of Rome, worship the creation, Satan.

The sea beast rises from the sea of the gentile nations.

The earth beast rises from a religious community, as the earth is closer to God than the sea.

I understand what you're getting at, and actually I don't disagree with you regarding the RCC, but what I'm saying is "it's your conclusion, plus more..."

Would you agree that Christ is Israel since he's her King (as well as because of the prophecies that link "Israel" and "first born son")? If you do, then aren't those who follow Christ also "Israel" (both the natural born Jew and the believing gentile who's grafted in)? If this is true, then "Israel" is VAST right now and indeed spread across the globe today sprinkled into every nation...and yet the gentile kingdom of Rome (in character and cultural influence) still rules over "Israel" (i.e. the people of God) and is also spread the world over.

Jerusalem is restored to Israel and the times of the gentiles is over.

Rome does not have power over Jerusalem and Israel anymore.

Paul says the things that happened to Israel "were for our example to whom the end of the earth have come" (1 Cor 10:11). And Ecclesiastes 1:9 says, "what has been is what will be; what has been done is what will be done. there is nothing new under the sun". So if we put these two truths together it means the events of Israel are playing out again, but playing out again in light of what Christ established with his death and resurrection. So everything is happening again, just scaled up

.


I don't think prophecy is repeated once it has been fulfilled.

For example, have you ever noticed this pattern:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Israel[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilderness (40 years)[/TD]
[TD]Wilderness (40 days)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joshua ("Yahshua" Heb.) leads into Promise Land[/TD]
[TD]Christ (Jesus/"Yahshua" Heb.) proclaims the promised Kingdom of God is nigh[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Judges rule different tribes after Joshua[/TD]
[TD]Bishops lead different churches after Christ[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Banners unite under King Saul's leadership[/TD]
[TD]Churches unite under Paul's ("Saul" Heb.) leadership[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Leadership given to King David[/TD]
[TD]The people of God currently await Christ's return as "Davidic/conquering King"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Most, OT prophecies are shown fulfilled in the NT.

Everything is scaled up. This means even the trials, tribulations and even the rule of Rome over Israel would happen to citizens of the Kingdom of God in the end times. So when you say, "A religious kingdom, the image of the Roman Empire, Caesar worship/man is God", I agree. And when you say, "The Roman Empire was, is (John's time), is not (the Roman Empire falls), and yet is (religious image kingdom)" I completely agree too...but I also believe that these truths must be taken to the final level else we'll still miss it; deceived to continue focusing on "flesh and blood" instead of "principalities" (Ephesians 6:12).

The BoR still has great power and influence.

A dangerous deceiver.

If taken to the final level, I believe the beast kingdom is a spiritual kingdom in which man worships *himself* as God in God's temple (the human being); his thought being "I am self-made"; "Secular humanism". "The Body of Satan"; The Fallen Man; many members but with one spirit (the same prideful spirit of old)...and those who worship the God of Abraham are seen as threats to this kingdom and so persecute the people of God.

Great description of Caesar and the BoR for the last 2000 yrs.

==============

 

[88]

Greetings 88,

After the 4th trumpet is sounded, an eagle flies through mid air proclaiming the following:

"Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

I personally believe that the reason that they are referred to as "Woes" is because trumpets 5,6 & 7 are demonic in nature.

5th Trumpet/1st woe = Demonic beings resembling locusts and looking like horses prepared for battle with breast plates of iron, faces like human faces, teeth like lions teeth, hair like women's hair, wings and tails and stingers like that of a scorpion.

We know that they are not your garden variety locust and that because they are coming up out of the Abyss, and also because of their previously mentioned characteristics. They are also intelligent as they are commanded not to harm the trees or any green thing, which is what a real locust would do. In addition, they will be able to recognize the seal of God on the foreheads of the 144,000 who will be the only ones exempt from this plague of wrath.

Their king, that angel of the Abyss, is none other than the beast who once was, now is not and will come up out of the Abyss and is the one who will kill the two witnesses. He's the same one who will be the power behind the antichrist and the same one who will receive that fatal wound and who will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. - Rev.11:7, 13:3,17:8,11, 2 Thes.2:4

During the 5th trumpet, the inhabitants will seek death but won't be able to die, for death will not be in operation during that time.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe = Four evil angels currently bound in the region of the Euphrates river that have been kept there for this very hour, day, month and year, will be released and they go and gather an army of 200 million demonic beings. Somewhere, someone made the claim that the 200 million are the kings of the east. The problem with that is, there is nothing in the context that would link this army as being the armies of the kings of the east or even being human for that matter. Remember, the scripture says "they" the four angels, will be given power to kill a third of mankind. It is those angels and their army killing a third of mankind and not men killing men.

Previously at the 5th trumpet, the Abyss will have been opened and will remain open until Christ returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time, Satan is thrown in and it is at that time when it will be locked back up. I believe that it is possible that the Abyss is where this army of 200 million come from.

If we examine the horses closely, it becomes apparent that they are not your normal run-of-the-mill horses. It also becomes apparent that John is not describing some futuristic vehicle, as he refers to the mounts as horses. Now, John knows what a horse looks like. Previously, we saw that John made comparisons, "hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, something like a huge mountain all ablaze. Comparisons! But here in describing these mounts he doesn't use a comparison, he straight out calls them horses. So for all intents and purposes, these things have the bodies of horses until you get to the head, which he says resembles a lions heads. And out of these horses mouths comes fire, smoke and sulfur, with which they kill a third of mankind with.

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe = After the 5th trumpet we have the following announcement:

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come"

Likewise, after the 6th trumpet has sounded we read the following:

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

Many miss the third woe and that because it is not announced that the third woe has passed as it is with the 1st and 2nd woes as demonstrated above. But, the 3rd woe is recognizable for those who are paying attention to detail, as can be seen in the following scripture when Satan is thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth:

"Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” - Rev.12:12

So there is the 3rd woe, which is Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth. When this takes place, they will be able to focus all of their malice and evil on the inhabitants of the earth, which I am thankful that neither I nor any other true believer will be here to experience.

*** sounds good--- I'm still looking into this section of Revelation---sounds like Hell on Earth...

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hello 88,

There are several things chronologically out of place in the chart above, as Iam sure you have noticed.

1). Seals 1 thru 5 should be included within the seven years as belonging to God's wrath

And if you can show the Scriptures that teach what you are saying here, i will change it to reflect that.

2). Jesus does not return to the earth in the middle of the seven years, for scripture has him returning after the 7th bowl has been poured out, not before.

And if you can show the Scriptures that teach what you are saying here, i will change it to reflect that. Show me one verse that teaches after the 7th bowl is poured out is when Christ Returns to the Earth. If you can't then how is that not your opinion what happens

3). The new Jerusalem does not come down on this present earth, but to the new earth and that after the millennial period and the great white throne judgment, which follows.

And if you can show the Scriptures that teach what you are saying here, i will change it to reflect that.

4). The 144,000 are not children, for Rev.14 states that they will have not defiled themselves with woman making them adult males, ergo, the male child who Israel gives birth to.

And you can show Scriptures that teach they are not children? By the way, children also have not defiled themselves with woman. nor man for that matter.

88 concerning the chart, please notice how many people say they disagree with it, and see how many verses they use to prove it wrong? If it is so wrong, so incorrect, it would seem people would be flooding the thread with all kinds of verses which prove it to be incorrect, yet what do we actually see. NO Scriptures, only people saying they don't believe it. So they don't believe it, NOT because it contradicts Scriptures, but because it contradicts what they THINK is the TRUTH.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

To be able to understand book of revelation you need two things... You should have have a good understanding of Christian history to act as guide of interpretation of prophesy. You also need to be able to connect the book of revelation with that of Daniel. Remember what was revealed to john is what it had been shown to daniel.. Dan 12:9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end....also christ quote Daniel when he was revealing to apostles what will happen in End times....and it is the same christ who was revealing to john what will happen in end times. Therefore you need the two books to understand prophesy plus history of this world because history is there to judge us all..

There is also a third way that is not mentioned above. God can just tell you how it is going to happen. Then instruct you to tell others.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

The 144k are also called 1st fruits.

All these things,to me,leaves the theory of post trib rapture as impossible.

The first fruits are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the Earth. These are NOT they that are taken up, these are not the Saints. These 144,000 are not Raptured but are left behind. They are not Raptured because they are not SAVED, they do not know who Jesus is, because they are toddlers and children. These children will be protected by Angels during the whole 7 year Tribulation Period. They will be sealed and protected from humans, beasts, and tribulations. They are protected from the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials/bowls Judgements. These are the first fruits that are redeemed from the Earth. Saints are already redeemed. These are humans that survive the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth which takes 7 years to complete that process. These are they that repopulate the entire Earth in Garden of Eden conditions for 1,000 years. We Saints Rule over the humans on the Planet out of the Holy City which is located over old Jerusalem, we will teach them how to fish, how to grow, how to harvest, and daily life activities. These will never have known what sin is, these are pure, Holy, just, and without sin, they will not know what a lie is, nor will a perverse thing enter into their minds. These are the first fruits for GOD.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello DiscipleDave,

The first fruits are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the Earth. These are NOT they that are taken up, these are not the Saints. These 144,000 are not Raptured but are left behind. They are not Raptured because they are not SAVED, they do not know who Jesus is, because they are toddlers and children.

If the 144,000 were children and toddlers, the verse that says, "these are those who have not defiled themselves with women" would make no sense. These are Israelite males who are the first fruits to God. The woman of Rev.12, Israel, give birth to them i.e. Israelite believers who recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The "Male Child" is a collective name for the 144,000, who will be "caught up" in the middle of the seven years in the same manner as the living church is when the resurrection takes place.

These are humans that survive the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth which takes 7 years to complete that process.

There is no where in scripture that states the amount time that it takes for the new heaven and new earth to be completed is seven years, nor any other amount of time for that matter. I would believe that God would just speak the new heaven and new earth into existence.

These are they that repopulate the entire Earth in Garden of Eden conditions for 1,000 years.

Since the male child/144,000 will be changed and caught up, they will be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will rule with Christ during that thousand years in those immortal bodies. Because they will have already received their heavenly bodies they will not be repopulating the earth during the millennial period. It will be the great tribulation saints who make it through that last seven years alive and the woman, Israel, who will repopulate the earth. The church, the 144,000 and the resurrected great tribulation saints will be those who will rule with Christ during the thousand years.

 

[88]

I want to continue to share on Revelation 9---later---but for now are we getting the impact of these Judgments which shall hit the Earth---the Anti-Christ will have a tough time----It will be Hell on Earth---the Church will be gone----God will be dealing with the Jews (God didn't forsake His people)*********so now is preparation time: 1. The Harvest at the End of the Age----get ready for souls to be brought in abundantly. 2. Get ready for persecution---when God start to bring souls in the devil will get angry. 3. Get Ready Personally---extra oil (Matthew 25)...

 

[88]

REVELATION AND THE HARVEST: https://youtu.be/4dMwZlntEtUT ---before Wrath is the Harvest...

 

[popeye]

Yes, the change of gentile nations that rule over the people of Israel and Jerusalem.





Roman and non-Roman nations that the people of Israel live under until they are restored to Jerusalem.




Nations, Roman/RCC nations, the kingdom of the 4th beast/nation.

A religious kingdom, the image of the Roman Empire, Caesar worship/man is God,

The Roman Empire was, is (John's time), is not (the Roman Empire falls), and yet is (religious image kingdom)





I agree, so what form of the Roman Empire remained after the toes divided, Roman nation?




A good point, I see what you mean.

But at what point are we in the statue?

The old Roman Empire has divided into more than 10 modern nations,

If it were literal, then there would have been 10, and only 10, until now.

Where is the end of the old Roman Empire shown in the statue, at the 10 toes dividing?







The RCC?



John said that the 6th head "is", and the 7th to come, then the 8th.

When the 7th dies, that is the end of the Roman Empire, it divides.

The 8th head is during the time of the 10 kings, after the empire falls.

The 8th head and the 10 kings last from the fall of the Roman Empire until the stone strikes, 476 ad until not long from now.

Perdition, spiritual destruction, eternal hell.





RCC, There is only one Holy Father, and He is in heaven.





When this was written to Israel in Babylon,

Israel is the whole world and Jerusalem is it's capital.

The statue shows the gentile nations that rule Israel and Jerusalem, until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, 1967.

It is the whole earth of Israel, not the planet.

Actually,the AC will destroy all governments. He alone is the world's dictator. The wrath of the GT is directed towards humans,with the purpose of repentance.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Actually,the AC will destroy all governments. He alone is the world's dictator. The wrath of the GT is directed towards humans,with the purpose of repentance.

"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

"And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty."

"From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron;"

It is God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments who dismantles all human government and decimates the majority of the earth's population. As you can see from the scriptures above, the nations, what's left of them, will be gathered there in Megiddo, will be killed when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

 

[Dave713]

I know it is a large, debated topic. But I wanted to start a thread for people to freely share their thoughts, convictions and questions etc on the last book given to us by the last surviving apostle at the time...John.

Exiled and a prisoner on the island of Patmos, he received this message.

Let's hear it, y'all.

You can only understand the prophecy once it is fulfilled. For example the 1st coming they didn't know that the prophecies of the Old Testament were being fulfilled through Jesus. Instead people guessed and had their own interpretations which lead to crucifying Jesus Christ. In Hab 2:2-4 it says to wait until the revelation is revealed and also in Amos 3:7 The Lord does nothing without revealing his plan.

In order to truly understand Revelation one has to put his own thoughts aside and be willing to accept the testimony of the one who comes in the name of the Lord. Rv 1:1-3 shows us the process of Revelation being passed God->Jesus->Angel->John-> The servants. You have to hear the testimony from the one who comes in the role of John. Just like Jesus came in the role of Ezekiel in chapters 1-3.

If you want to know, how revelation has been fulfilled I can show you. If you are simply trying to prove something and not trying to learn you may pass. (This goes for all people here.)

 

[Ahwatukee]

You can only understand the prophecy once it is fulfilled. For example the 1st coming they didn't know that the prophecies of the Old Testament were being fulfilled through Jesus. Instead people guessed and had their own interpretations which lead to crucifying Jesus Christ. In Hab 2:2-4 it says to wait until the revelation is revealed and also in Amos 3:7 The Lord does nothing without revealing his plan.

In order to truly understand Revelation one has to put his own thoughts aside and be willing to accept the testimony of the one who comes in the name of the Lord. Rv 1:1-3 shows us the process of Revelation being passed God->Jesus->Angel->John-> The servants. You have to hear the testimony from the one who comes in the role of John. Just like Jesus came in the role of Ezekiel in chapters 1-3.

If you want to know, how revelation has been fulfilled I can show you. If you are simply trying to prove something and not trying to learn you may pass. (This goes for all people here.)

Hello Dave713,

Revelation has yet to be fulfilled. God gave us the information in Revelation to show us the things that must soon take place. The majority of the book of Revelation is given to the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The chronological order of the book of Revelation is revealed in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now" i.e after the church periodll

Currently, we are still in the "what is now" part of the program. Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will resurrect and immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that time the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

After the church has been gathered, the the "what must take place after this" will ensue, which is the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27). The "what must take place later" will be the pouring out of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

We are and have been approaching the Lord's appearing and his gathering of the church. That is obvious because we are seeing the stage being set for many events that are to take place after the church is gone, such as the electronic crediting and debiting technology which the mark of the beast will run on. That coming mark will replace card swiping, cell phone bank apps and whatever else is being used to access one's bank account. During the time of the beast cash, checks, cards, bank apps and all other methods of buying and selling (crediting and debiting) will be made obsolete leaving only that mark.

The next event is the gathering of the church, followed by the "what must take place later."