Romans 10:13

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GaryA

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Correct, they were in a saved regenerated state when they heard the Gospel.
Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It is the power of the Gospel that transforms...

(However, 'regeneration' comes by the Holy Spirit.)
 

GaryA

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A person is saved before and in order to believe the Gospel, thats why its the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

They possessed Salvation whenever the Gospel was sent to them to hear about it. They posses it prior to believing.
Salvation comes at/with being 'sealed' by/with the Holy Spirit.

Nothing in that verse places salvation before the Gospel or belief in Christ.

How many times will you ignore the word 'after'...???

'after that ye heard the word of truth' ('word of truth' = gospel)

'after that ye believed' (belief came first)

Salvation came after belief.
 

GaryA

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I know what regeneration means
I am not so sure you do... :unsure:

one has to be alive to hear and believe
one believes after being made alive, dead folks cant and dont believe.
I believe you may be confusing/conflating some things.

Hebrews 4:

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God can convict the lost sinner who is 'spiritually dead' - bringing them to a "saving knowledge" of God/Christ/Gospel - upon which they may then 'believe' and in which they may then have 'faith' - after which they are 'saved' by the 'sealing' of the Holy Spirit, given by God.

At the point in time that they are 'saved' ('sealed' by the Holy Spirit), they are "made alive" ('spiritually') by the Holy Spirit ('regenerated') - after which - they may be taught 'spiritual' things by the Holy Spirit.

The 'regeneration' of a person is not a prerequisite to the 'act' of being 'saved'; rather, it occurs because-and-when a person is 'saved' - by virtue of the Holy Spirit.

It is by 'belief' and 'faith' that an individual may become 'spiritually alive'.

Being 'spiritually alive' is not a prerequisite for the very thing that enables a person to become 'spiritually alive'.
 

GaryA

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Yes it does. There is no spiritual life , believing is the fruit of having life, the ability to hear.
Nope - it would be more accurate to say that 'having life' (being 'saved'/'spiritual') is the fruit (outworking) of 'believing'.
 

GaryA

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A person is spiritually dead to God until they are made alive, then they call upon His Name Ps 80:18

18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.
You have taken this verse completely out of context.
 

GaryA

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Regeneration is an aspect of Salvation Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This aspect of Salvation is necessary before one can believe.
Where in this verse does it place salvation before belief?
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Okay. Christ as Saviour gives repentance did you know that ? Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The sinners He calls to repentance, He likewise gives it to them, causes them to repent.
Bad Eisegesus again by you! You just ripped a verse out of context, then ripped it out of even the verse! Let's look at it again!

"31 God exalted him to his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins" Acts 5:13 NET

What is this verse part of? It is a speech, telling people who Jesus was. Peter is talking and he is explaining to the high priest at the Sanhedrin about who Jesus was and why they continued to speak about him, despite being warned by the high priest not to do so. This chapter also notes that signs and wonders were being done in the name of Jesus. Verse 17 also says that the High Priest and the Sadducee "and they were filled with jealousy."

So the priests & scribes bring Peter before them, where Peter tells the rulers. "They must obey God, rather than people!" Vs 29. Peter then reviews for these church leaders the gospel, including that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, and "to bring repentance to Israel." Vs 31!

Peter is not speaking about a person or individual in this passage at all. He is explaining how by Jesus death on the cross, he forgave sins, AND to the nation of Israel brought "true" repentance. Not the repentance of animal sacrifices or offerings, which was going on in the temple! But so the entire nation of Israel now had access to a kind of repentance, that if done, would result in the forgiveness of sins!

"And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again—sacrifices that can never take away sins." Hebrews 10:11

Animal sacrifice as a way to God, as a method of repentance was finished! Christ did away with the "first" or animal sacrifice, in order to bring the "second," his death on the cross!

"He does away with the first to establish the second. 10 By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:9-10

This is the gospel. Jesus didn't dump repentance on Israel as a nation, not on individuals on mass. He didn't dump repentance on you, or anyone else. Peter explains that Christ's death on the "tree" vs Acts 5: 30, opened the door for Israel at this time, and in Acts 10, to all Gentiles, to be able to repent and turn from their sins, for forgiveness, which the blood of bulls and rams could never do! He is saying that Jesus death closed the door on animal sacrifice as a means of repentance, rather that it was now only available through the blood of Christ.

Peter says nothing about Jesus giving repentance to anyone. The gospel opens the door to the possibility that who-so-ever may, can repent and ask for repentance.

I'm not expecting anyone as narrow minded as you, who lacks any training in hermeneutics or Bible interpretation to understand any of this. You have completely misinterpreted the verse, the passage & the whole gospel.

Yet why else, only 3 chapters earlier did Peter command people to repent?

"Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

Jesus didn't give them mass repentance! They had to repent "EACH ONE OF YOU" Why else did Jesus command everyone to
repent:

"From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near!” Matt 4:17

Why else did John the Baptist say:

"He said, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the gospel!” Mark 1:15

Why else did the disciples go out into the country saying:

"So they went out and preached that all should repent." Mark 6:12

Why else did Luke say:

"I tell you, in the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need to repent!" Luke 15:7

God did give us the gift of grace through faith. But, each one must repent before God to be saved! God did not just give us repentance. Nor is it a "work!" It is the result of grace through faith. If you do not repent, then you are simply not saved!

But I do hope others will understand that by Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, Jesus made a way through the cross for everyone to believe, repent of their sins & be forgiven!
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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So how do you explain why some countries have an extremely low percentage of Christians in their population. Against countries with a much higher percentage of Christians within their population.

In a country such as Afghanistan, the population of Christians is extremely low at around 0.02%.

Whereas a country such as Brazil has a Christian population of about 90%.

Is God's choice based on racial factors?
I dont know nothing about all that.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Sure. That's what I said.
Im not sure you understand what you are saying, for that means Salvation is before Faith, and one doesnt call upon the name of the Lord until after they are saved.
 

brightfame52

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Romans 10:

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? ( that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? ( that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead. ) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The 'word' that is 'nigh thee' - 'even in thy mouth' - is that [same] 'word' that [if thou] 'shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus'.

The 'word' that is 'nigh thee' - 'in thy heart' - is that [same] 'word' that [if thou] 'shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead'.

The 'word of faith' ['which we preach'] is the active expression of the exercising of belief-and-faith that is illustrated in verse 9 and explained in verse 10.

The word 'word' in verse 8 is not referring to the Word of God; rather, it is referring to the active assent of a person toward God with regard to salvation.

To 'call upon the name of the Lord' is to put forth the 'word of faith'.

Salvation comes through 'belief' and 'faith' - belief in the resurrection and faith in the Lord Jesus - acquiescence to God and confession that Jesus is Lord.
Beleif and Faith comes through Salvation, one cannot believe until after they are saved. They are saved when the Spoken word rehma is in their heart
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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So how do you explain why some countries have an extremely low percentage of Christians in their population. Against countries with a much higher percentage of Christians within their population.

In a country such as Afghanistan, the population of Christians is extremely low at around 0.02%.

Whereas a country such as Brazil has a Christian population of about 90%.

Is God's choice based on racial factors?
I understand your point but you may not be using the best model. It's not a like-for like comparison.
In Afghanistan, Jihadis murder or forcibly convert Christians. Brazil is largely Catholic.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It is the power of the Gospel that transforms...

(However, 'regeneration' comes by the Holy Spirit.)
One is regenerated before they hear and believe the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Th 2:14

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Sanctifying work of the Spirit in regeneration, is preparatory to the effectual call of the Gospel. Rom 1:16 is speaking of the conversion of a regenerated person, the Gospel comes to them in power 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Salvation comes at/with being 'sealed' by/with the Holy Spirit.

Nothing in that verse places salvation before the Gospel or belief in Christ.

How many times will you ignore the word 'after'...???

'after that ye heard the word of truth' ('word of truth' = gospel)

'after that ye believed' (belief came first)

Salvation came after belief.
A Person is saved before the Gospel comes to them, thats why its the Gospel of THEIR SALVATION, they are in possession of Salvation. The word your hymōn is a possessive pronoun, so they are in a saved state, a salvation state, thats why also they heard the word of Truth, a lost person cannot hear spiritually the word of God. Also the Spirits sealing isnt regeneration, its confirming the Truth, a true believer will never apostatize from the Truth because they are sealed by the Spirit.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Nope - it would be more accurate to say that 'having life' (being 'saved'/'spiritual') is the fruit (outworking) of 'believing'.
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Again, thats exactly what 2 Thess 2:13 Illustrates

Faith follows the Sanctifying regenerative work of the Spirit

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth/Faith is the fruit of the Spirit.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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You have taken this verse completely out of context.
Its called comparing scripture with scripture, spiritual things with spiritual things. You are in variance with scripture truth.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Where in this verse does it place salvation before belief?
The verse shows that when one is regenerated they have been saved. I have already shown you umpteen times that regeneration preceded belief 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So when a person calls upon the Name of the Lord, its giving evidence they are saved by regeneration. This is elementary friend, you are showing your lack of knowledge of salvation.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Bad Eisegesus again by you! You just ripped a verse out of context, then ripped it out of even the verse! Let's look at it again!

"31 God exalted him to his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins" Acts 5:13 NET

What is this verse part of? It is a speech, telling people who Jesus was. Peter is talking and he is explaining to the high priest at the Sanhedrin about who Jesus was and why they continued to speak about him, despite being warned by the high priest not to do so. This chapter also notes that signs and wonders were being done in the name of Jesus. Verse 17 also says that the High Priest and the Sadducee "and they were filled with jealousy."

So the priests & scribes bring Peter before them, where Peter tells the rulers. "They must obey God, rather than people!" Vs 29. Peter then reviews for these church leaders the gospel, including that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, and "to bring repentance to Israel." Vs 31!

Peter is not speaking about a person or individual in this passage at all. He is explaining how by Jesus death on the cross, he forgave sins, AND to the nation of Israel brought "true" repentance. Not the repentance of animal sacrifices or offerings, which was going on in the temple! But so the entire nation of Israel now had access to a kind of repentance, that if done, would result in the forgiveness of sins!

"And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again—sacrifices that can never take away sins." Hebrews 10:11

Animal sacrifice as a way to God, as a method of repentance was finished! Christ did away with the "first" or animal sacrifice, in order to bring the "second," his death on the cross!

"He does away with the first to establish the second. 10 By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:9-10

This is the gospel. Jesus didn't dump repentance on Israel as a nation, not on individuals on mass. He didn't dump repentance on you, or anyone else. Peter explains that Christ's death on the "tree" vs Acts 5: 30, opened the door for Israel at this time, and in Acts 10, to all Gentiles, to be able to repent and turn from their sins, for forgiveness, which the blood of bulls and rams could never do! He is saying that Jesus death closed the door on animal sacrifice as a means of repentance, rather that it was now only available through the blood of Christ.

Peter says nothing about Jesus giving repentance to anyone. The gospel opens the door to the possibility that who-so-ever may, can repent and ask for repentance.

I'm not expecting anyone as narrow minded as you, who lacks any training in hermeneutics or Bible interpretation to understand any of this. You have completely misinterpreted the verse, the passage & the whole gospel.

Yet why else, only 3 chapters earlier did Peter command people to repent?

"Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

Jesus didn't give them mass repentance! They had to repent "EACH ONE OF YOU" Why else did Jesus command everyone to
repent:

"From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near!” Matt 4:17

Why else did John the Baptist say:

"He said, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the gospel!” Mark 1:15

Why else did the disciples go out into the country saying:

"So they went out and preached that all should repent." Mark 6:12

Why else did Luke say:

"I tell you, in the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need to repent!" Luke 15:7

God did give us the gift of grace through faith. But, each one must repent before God to be saved! God did not just give us repentance. Nor is it a "work!" It is the result of grace through faith. If you do not repent, then you are simply not saved!

But I do hope others will understand that by Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, Jesus made a way through the cross for everyone to believe, repent of their sins & be forgiven!
All this for nothing, Jesus gives repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

God gives regeneration for repentance.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
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Its a serious matter friend.
Salvation is a serious matter and your False Doctrine of it is a more serious matter as you are sending people to their doom by your telling others of your False Doctrine on Salvation and you should be ashamed of yourself ---your the one laughing at the Truth of Scripture about how to receive Salvation ---

You are Wrongly dividing the Word of Truth -------who is Jesus

OK to send yourself to this place below ---but not OK to send others there for your ignorance of Salvation through Faith ---especially feeling no remorse -------you will be Judged for that severely in your end ------
so Good Luck explaining to God why you preach a False Doctrine on Salvation---comes from the :devilish:------

 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Im not sure you understand what you are saying, for that means Salvation is before Faith, and one doesnt call upon the name of the Lord until after they are saved.
Grace leads to faith which leads to salvation. Faith is the conduit of grace that leads to salvation. How can it not be present before salvation?