romans 7:14-25 ? how do you understand it

[DP]

Yep thats what paul taught, His answer to romans 7 about how he had an inner struggle between the flesh telling him to do what is evil, and the spirit telling hi to do what is good.. And that was how to defeat the flesh, by seeking the spirit..

However, he never claimed the battle would never be there, For he would then claim sinlessness, Which he never ever claimed.

Rom 8 is not how to keep from losing salvation, For he said, there is no condemnation for all who are already in christ.. It is a hope for all christians, that even though romans 7 happens to us all. we have no need to fear. WWe are secure in christ,, Now then, seek after the spirit. and you will defeat the flesh.

Apostle Paul never claimed that he was perfect in his flesh, as a matter of fact he claimed that of sinners, he was chief:

1 Tim 1:15-16
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus is "longsuffering" with us while we are in this flesh, for He well knows what we are subjected to by the flesh and this world. He knows we can never be perfect away from sin in this world like He was. Yet He expects us to still address future sin and take it to Him and talk to Him about it.

To think we can do whatever we want now and automatically think He will cover it without repentance is like a child going out to steal and expecting one's parents to not say anything about it, but just welcome them home.

 

[jasonj]

Because we are born in sin, sin remains in our fleshly body. Flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God because it remains sin corrupted. But our inner man, our spirit, is changed by the Holy Spirit to desire godly things instead of worldly, thus the conflict between the two. The flesh never stops wanting sin. Even our best efforts cannot fully subdue it.

Paul shows us that while we're stuck with this corrupt flesh, Our spirits remain saved as long as we press towards the prize of eternal life (Php 3:14). That "pressing" involves constantly warring against our flesh to gain control. We can achieve much, but we'll never attain full victory till we lay the flesh down at death or translation.

IMO, Paul is also showing us there's no "superstars" in the Kingdom, but a super God that empowers/enables us through His Holy Spirit.

thanks for the input God bless

 

[jasonj]

So basically you are wrong in relation to what I said!!!


I would agree with Paul. I am sure you have experienced the same emotions over your own sin? but yet in the same narrative, Paul looks forward to the 'not yet'

v24, is not a cry of disbondency or despair because Paul himself provides the answer in the very next verse (V25). see post 15.

ok thanks for the input

 

[jasonj]

Romans 7 describes the hopelessness of a law-conscious man walking in the flesh.

Romans 8 describes the victory of a Christ-conscious man walking in the spirit.

I completely agree with you, thanks for the input

 

[jasonj]

Its interesting that both describe the christian. I love the past tense of 7:1-13 - released from sin, to the present tense of 15-25 and from this Paul tells us how we should live in light of this (ch8).

Chapter 8, is a fantastic glorious expansion on romans 5:1-11 (peace with God through faith), a more indepth explanation of the Christians hope and assurance. Paul is wanting his readers to glory in the glory of their salvation, he wants them to focus on that rather than the depressing reminder he has just given them in Romans 7 of their continuing sinfulness. which is also a reality.

Chapters 6, 7 and 8, are not different types of christians..but the Christian.

thanks for the input

 

[jasonj]

Paul speaks present tense, Not past.

In order for you to be right, paul would have to say I could not or I did not.. or I was etc etc.

ok thanks for the input

 

[jasonj]

18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

A believer is no longer "in the flesh" for he has been spiritually circumcised from the flesh. The battle is between the redeemed inner man, and the corrupt out man, the flesh. The flesh desires physical things of this world. The spiritual man desires spiritual things.

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

My inner man is "in Christ." My inner man is a new creature. My inner man has a new nature now. My flesh is not "in Christ." It still possesses the old sinful nature passed down from Adam.

what would you say he means when he talks of putting to death the sinful nature? if there is a death how would the old man still survive and war against the new? or would you say the word death he uses often is irrelevant or means something more like subdue or fight against?

 

[jasonj]

Its interesting that both describe the christian. I love the past tense of 7:1-13 - released from sin, to the present tense of 15-25 and from this Paul tells us how we should live in light of this (ch8).

Chapter 8, is a fantastic glorious expansion on romans 5:1-11 (peace with God through faith), a more indepth explanation of the Christians hope and assurance. Paul is wanting his readers to glory in the glory of their salvation, he wants them to focus on that rather than the depressing reminder he has just given them in Romans 7 of their continuing sinfulness. which is also a reality.

Chapters 6, 7 and 8, are not different types of christians..but the Christian.

ok what would you make of the several times paul puts into the terms "put to death the sinful nature" or speaks of us dying with Christ? it seems the overwhelming take on these verses declare that Christians will never have victory over sin. yet if the old man is dead how would he continue to fight against the new man?

 

[DP]

Because we are born in sin, sin remains in our fleshly body. Flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God because it remains sin corrupted. But our inner man, our spirit, is changed by the Holy Spirit to desire godly things instead of worldly, thus the conflict between the two. The flesh never stops wanting sin. Even our best efforts cannot fully subdue it.

Paul shows us that while we're stuck with this corrupt flesh, Our spirits remain saved as long as we press towards the prize of eternal life (Php 3:14). That "pressing" involves constantly warring against our flesh to gain control. We can achieve much, but we'll never attain full victory till we lay the flesh down at death or translation.

IMO, Paul is also showing us there's no "superstars" in the Kingdom, but a super God that empowers/enables us through His Holy Spirit.

That's probably the best explanation of those Roman 7 verses on this thread. Like Paul also said, "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil.2:12).

 

[jasonj]

Are you asking me if I believe in the 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine of men? No, I don't believe that. I believe what Paul taught.

In Galatians 5, Paul taught that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we will not be doing sin, for there is no law against doing the good things by The Spirit. That IF... is a condition. It only applies as long we walk by The Spirit.

The next thing I would ask, are your deeds in this flesh, even after having accepted Christ Jesus, absolutely perfect in walking without sin as our Lord Jesus did when He was in the flesh? If you say yes, then you go directly against what Apostle John taught in 1 John 1 about those who say they have no sin.

The difference with what Paul taught and John in 1 John 1 is that when we do slip and sin after having believed, Jesus is our Advocate to The Father for us, forgiving us as we repent, and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. Then we are 'counted' as perfect. Doesn't mean we are perfect just yet (because of our flesh); it means we are counted as perfect in His sight. That's the difference after having believed on Jesus Christ.

no lol that wasn't what I meant.....but thanks for the input and God bless you.

 

[jasonj]

1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.



KJV

all have sinned no debate. but is it saying here or anywhere in scripture to continue in sin? or does it say that we are to die to sin ? is John saying its okay to sin as long as you confess it? because also in those same verses you quote he says no one born of God will continue in sin......if by faith the word repeats we put to death the sinful nature......if the old nature is dead how does it continue to "war" against the new as so many believe ? to say I have never sinned is a lie. to say sin is acceptable to God is also a lie. .....just some thoughts thanks for the input God bless

 

[DP]

ok what would you make of the several times paul puts into the terms "put to death the sinful nature" or speaks of us dying with Christ? it seems the overwhelming take on these verses declare that Christians will never have victory over sin. yet if the old man is dead how would he continue to fight against the new man?

Haven't you figured out why Paul was always admonishing the brethren to be careful of sin, and rebuked them harshly when they did? Look at 1 Corinthians 5! His main rebuking there was to those in that Church, for he had already pronounced judgment upon the one sinning there that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother. He rebuked those in that Church because they allowed... it to go on without doing anything about it!

Is this an example of those in Christ incapable of still being able to have sin after their belief on Jesus?

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

Oh, but there's always the excuse from men's doctrine that those mean sinners that never really did believe on Jesus! NOT!

At the end of Paul's ministry, he said this:

Acts 20:28-31
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV



Was that a message like, "Jesus died on the cross for YOU, if you just believe on Him. You don't have do ANYTHING but just believe, and you are FOREVER released from sin and cannot sin again!"

No, that's not... what Apostle Paul was preaching there. It's those deceiving "wolves" he warned of that are saying we can never sin again after Faith on Jesus Christ.

 

[jasonj]

Are you asking me if I believe in the 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine of men? No, I don't believe that. I believe what Paul taught.

In Galatians 5, Paul taught that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we will not be doing sin, for there is no law against doing the good things by The Spirit. That IF... is a condition. It only applies as long we walk by The Spirit.

The next thing I would ask, are your deeds in this flesh, even after having accepted Christ Jesus, absolutely perfect in walking without sin as our Lord Jesus did when He was in the flesh? If you say yes, then you go directly against what Apostle John taught in 1 John 1 about those who say they have no sin.

The difference with what Paul taught and John in 1 John 1 is that when we do slip and sin after having believed, Jesus is our Advocate to The Father for us, forgiving us as we repent, and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. Then we are 'counted' as perfect. Doesn't mean we are perfect just yet (because of our flesh); it means we are counted as perfect in His sight. That's the difference after having believed on Jesus Christ.

how would you interpret the death of the old man that paul always refers to? if the old man dies how does the old man fight against the new? and in relation to 1st john, all have sinned no argument, it seems you are saying no one can live a righteous life after repenting of sin? or the death of the sinner is just metaphrical or mis written maybe paul should have put it as " overpower and subdue the old man? or struggle against him always or something.....how would you fit the same in 1st john " no one who is born of God will continue to sin? is john saying in what you have refered to in 1st john sins ok as long as you confess ?

 

[jasonj]

Haven't you figured out why Paul was always admonishing the brethren to be careful of sin, and rebuked them harshly when they did? Look at 1 Corinthians 5! His main rebuking there was to those in that Church, for he had already pronounced judgment upon the one sinning there that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother. He rebuked those in that Church because they allowed... it to go on without doing anything about it!

Is this an example of those in Christ incapable of still being able to have sin after their belief on Jesus?

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

Oh, but there's always the excuse from men's doctrine that those mean sinners that never really did believe on Jesus! NOT!

At the end of Paul's ministry, he said this:

Acts 20:28-31
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV



Was that a message like, "Jesus died on the cross for YOU, if you just believe on Him. You don't have do ANYTHING but just believe, and you are FOREVER released from sin and cannot sin again!"

No, that's not... what Apostle Paul was preaching there. It's those deceiving "wolves" he warned of that are saying we can never sin again after Faith on Jesus Christ.

I find your views interesting. would you say that sin is acceptable to God then, as long as we confess it? and there is no victory over it until we die? it seems you are angry or feeling attacked. I'm only trying to understand peoples views of things. and if you are insinuating that I'm a "false teacher" or something, I'm in no way a teacher or do I pretend to be, just interested in peoples understanding of things.....God bless you tho

 

[Magenta]

Haven't you figured out why Paul was always admonishing the brethren to be careful of sin, and rebuked them harshly when they did? Look at 1 Corinthians 5! His main rebuking there was to those in that Church, for he had already pronounced judgment upon the one sinning there that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother. He rebuked those in that Church because they allowed... it to go on without doing anything about it!

That honestly looks more like the offense was with the man's step mother, not his own mother.

 

[DP]

all have sinned no debate. but is it saying here or anywhere in scripture to continue in sin? or does it say that we are to die to sin ? is John saying its okay to sin as long as you confess it? because also in those same verses you quote he says no one born of God will continue in sin......if by faith the word repeats we put to death the sinful nature......if the old nature is dead how does it continue to "war" against the new as so many believe ? to say I have never sinned is a lie. to say sin is acceptable to God is also a lie. .....just some thoughts thanks for the input God bless

Nowhere in the NT does it say it's OK to sin, so there shouldn't be ANY debate on that.

IF... we walk in Christ by The Spirit, then we won't be sinning. That doesn't mean it's not still possible, simply because of our flesh warring against our spirit. Rom.7 is to let us know that as long as we are still in this flesh, that war is going on, and that's what our Lord Jesus died on the cross for, so that we may be 'counted' perfect when we confess our sin, even after we have believed on Him (again, the subject of 1 John 1).

Our relationship in walking with Him is to be personal, like a child with their father. A righteous father is ever ready to forgive their child IF the child repents of wrongdoing and asks forgiveness. When a child does not do that, what recourse does the father have, since it's the father's responsibility to teach that his child did wrong? Punishment, as our Lord even said He punishes His whom He loves.

So if we want to go about our life wondering why our Heavenly Father doesn't answer our prayers, and all sorts of calamities are set before us, then go ahead and live life as if we have no further need to repent to Him when we mess up. And just being in the flesh guarantees we will mess up at times, hopefully nothing real bad.

But know this, those who preach that we have no further need in trying to keep from sin while seeking to follow Christ, then that's the "wolves" speaking, because that is how to cut off our Lord Jesus from that personal walk with Him. He as our Heavenly Father wants our love and affection, but also our respect, and we cannot fool Him.

 

[DP]

That honestly looks more like the offense was with the man's step mother, not his own mother.

It wouldn't matter if it was his mother or step mother that seduced him. In God's eyes, that is still a sin, even outside one's own kin. It's called fornication. If she is married, it's called adultery.

 

[DP]

I find your views interesting. would you say that sin is acceptable to God then, as long as we confess it? and there is no victory over it until we die? it seems you are angry or feeling attacked. I'm only trying to understand peoples views of things. and if you are insinuating that I'm a "false teacher" or something, I'm in no way a teacher or do I pretend to be, just interested in peoples understanding of things.....God bless you tho

That's what a lot in early Church thought, like they had a license to sin, and the more they sinned the more... they showed Christ's Grace. Haven't you read what Apostle Paul said about that?

 

[DP]

I find your views interesting. would you say that sin is acceptable to God then, as long as we confess it? and there is no victory over it until we die? it seems you are angry or feeling attacked. I'm only trying to understand peoples views of things. and if you are insinuating that I'm a "false teacher" or something, I'm in no way a teacher or do I pretend to be, just interested in peoples understanding of things.....God bless you tho

No, I don't feel under attack by you.

Just trying to get folks to use common sense in the simplicity of God's Word, nothing more.

 

[Magenta]

It wouldn't matter if it was his mother or step mother that seduced him. In God's eyes, that is still a sin, even outside one's own kin. It's called fornication. If she is married, it's called adultery.

True. Though he could have seduced her. Just pointing out the obvious If it was his mother I just think it would have said so instead of saying his father's wife. Reminds me of Woody Allen, having an affair with (and later marrying) Mia Farrow's adopted daughter. Many saw that in the same light: a violation. Woody and Mia were not married, but they had a child together and jointly adopted two other children.