Romans 7 man not saved.

[Jason0047]

That may be true in some cases but not all. This is why we need a pastor-teacher that God has raised up who has put the word of God first and not only studies to show himself approved but to the point of exhaustion. Who takes what is learned and taught by the Spirit and puts it into practice by faith to walk in the wisdom of it and to see the fruit of it so that others who hear it also become doers of the word. There is a basic understanding of the NT Greek sentence structure that anyone can learn to give them a helpful understanding of what they are studying, Knowing the meaning of verbs with their tense, voice and mood is a great addition to that study.

After all we would not want to use the wrong kind of verb when we speak to one another. We would not want to use a verb that denoted the subject of the sentence as receiving the action of the verb instead of the subject being the one who initiates that action. We would also want to know if the action carries a continuous action or an action that has been competed not having to be repeated. Things like that are helpful and a good pastor-teacher will learn these things to be a good teacher of the word and doctrine. For us who are learning their are some good aids that are helpful that can be trusted and we also have the Spirit that will guide us into the truth when our heart is hungry for God.

I am not saying it is impossible to know Biblical Greek if God wants you to know it by the Spirit. I just know most people are deceitful in the way they handle the Word of God and they hide behind a false interpretation of the Greek so as to defend a wrong doctrine or belief in the Bible. From my experience, I believe God preserved His Word for all generations (i.e. the world language for today) and that is something that is backed up by Scripture. There is no Biblical position for believing in Modern Versions and or in having to study Hebrew or Greek (or older language) to study the Bible.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes Peter did mess up as we all do as we grow. But did Peter keep messing up? we don't really know maybe maybe not.

I am not rejecting that we make mistakes, I am rejecting the notion that we will always make mistakes.

anyway blessings

Paul said to follow him as an example. If Paul was struggling with sin, or didn't put away sin, and or lied about how it was Christ who lived in him and that it was no longer himself that lived then how can we follow his example? That is just one of the many Biblical reasons I do not believe Romans 7 is talking about his personal struggle with sin as a Christian. I believe Paul is talking about his struggle with sin BEFORE he became a Christian when he was an outward Jew following the Law of Moses.

 

[Jason0047]

I am not saying it is impossible to know Biblical Greek if God wants you to know it by the Spirit. I just know most people are deceitful in the way they handle the Word of God and they hide behind a false interpretation of the Greek so as to defend a wrong doctrine or belief in the Bible. From my experience, I believe God preserved His Word for all generations (i.e. the world language for today) and that is something that is backed up by Scripture. There is no Biblical position for believing in Modern Versions and or in having to study Hebrew or Greek (or older language) to study the Bible.

Oh, and seeing I can only edit my posts within a 5 minute deadline, I have to add this as a correction. I wanted to clarify that,

"There is no Biblical position that we must believe in Modern Versions or in studying an old lost langage so as to understand the Word of God."

 

[Hoffco]

not bad, I would suggest one thing though, saved do not contemplate this question the saved have already contemplated it and gone from works to Faith.

what are your thoughts on this?

The Romans 7 man is One who has not graduated from works to faith.

Romans 8 has come to Faith.

Sorry to say, I have not found you to be trust worthy on ANY point of Doctrine. You completely take over God's place when you come to the Bible. You do not allow God to speak. Your intellect seems to be your god, you have changed every doctrine that I believe in. I would like to hear your view of INSPIRATION. Do you believe in the VERBAL PLENARY View, that every word is selected by GOD and fully inspired by GOD in the original letters? I think all Christians will accept that NO Christian is perfectly saved from ever sinning again in this life. Do you think, you can not sin? Perfection is presented as our GOAL but NEVER as our attainment. 1John is obviously telling us that no Christian can attain to sinless perfection. You might be a great charismatic leader, but you are just leading fools astray. This is my opinion. Rom. 7 is an imperfect Saint bemoaning the fact of his remaining sin and expressing how much he hates his old sinful nature. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

I believe God preserved His Word for all generations (i.e. the world language for today) and that is something that is backed up by Scripture. There is no Biblical position for believing in Modern Versions and or in having to study Hebrew or Greek (or older language) to study the Bible.

When did God preserve His Word for all generations? YOu don't think He did that as soon as it was generated? You think no one had the word of God before 1611? If our pilgrim fathers rejected that modern, perverted KJV, and clung to the Geneva Bible, why do you prefer the KJV?

All scripture is theopneustos (God-breathed, created by God). The scripture He breathed out was in Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek. Every time the Word of God is praised (as in Ps 119), it refers to the Word as God gave it, not as man interprets in in translations. So to say that there is no Biblical position for studying Hebrew & Greek is to claim that there is no Biblical position for reading God's word -- an absurdity.

Thy word is a lamp to my feet & a light to my path.
That has no reference to any translation in English.

Study to show yourself a workman who does not need to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.
(That has no reference to the KJV, since neither English nor the KJV was written at the time.)

I realize that lazy people may want to falsify that the KJV is the precise word of God so that they don't have to study. And probably most of those people haven't mastered Elizabethan English either. They probably misunderstand many passages, like "He that letteth will let."

 

[Atwood]

Re: Romans 7 Paul = Man Savissimo-ed; Sing It !

That is the problem here, I used to think the same as you because of the "I" in this passage. but there is a problem reading it that way.

because the "I" that is in bondage to sin in Romans 7 is the same "me" that is free from sin in chapter 8.

What is your proof of that?
How do you know that the I/me of Rom 8 is not the I/me of Rom 7 who says, "It is no longer I who do it, but sin." You really can't see two conflicting I/me's in Rom 7, one of which is his flesh? The defeated I/me of Rom 7 is the victorious I/me of Rom 8, only in Rom 8 the Holy Spirit is aiding him.

 

[Jason0047]

When did God preserve His Word for all generations? YOu don't think He did that as soon as it was generated? You think no one had the word of God before 1611? If our pilgrim fathers rejected that modern, perverted KJV, and clung to the Geneva Bible, why do you prefer the KJV?

All scripture is theopneustos (God-breathed, created by God). The scripture He breathed out was in Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek. Every time the Word of God is praised (as in Ps 119), it refers to the Word as God gave it, not as man interprets in in translations. So to say that there is no Biblical position for studying Hebrew & Greek is to claim that there is no Biblical position for reading God's word -- an absurdity.

Thy word is a lamp to my feet & a light to my path.
That has no reference to any translation in English.

Study to show yourself a workman who does not need to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.
(That has no reference to the KJV, since neither English nor the KJV was written at the time.)

I realize that lazy people may want to falsify that the KJV is the precise word of God so that they don't have to study. And probably most of those people haven't mastered Elizabethan English either. They probably misunderstand many passages, like "He that letteth will let."

God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalm 12:6 KJV) (Psalm 119:140 KJV) (Proverbs 30:5 KJV) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalm 12:7 KJV) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8 KJV) (1 Peter 1:25 KJV). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in Genesis 3:1 KJV); Because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe (1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV). In other words, do you believe you hold the very words of God within your hands like the disciples did?

 

[gotime]

Re: Romans 7 Paul = Man Savissimo-ed; Sing It !

What is your proof of that?
How do you know that the I/me of Rom 8 is not the I/me of Rom 7 who says, "It is no longer I who do it, but sin." You really can't see two conflicting I/me's in Rom 7, one of which is his flesh? The defeated I/me of Rom 7 is the victorious I/me of Rom 8, only in Rom 8 the Holy Spirit is aiding him.

read the whole post.

 

[gotime]

How does faith work?

Do we question a persons salvation because they attempt to keep the law by their flesh? Such as the 4th commandment?

That would put whole denominations in the un-saved category.

The question is, can a person be saved and still struggle with trying to attain sinless perfection by their own will and strength?
Can a person be saved and still try to keep the law through their own will and strength and understanding?

If a person falls from grace does that mean they have also fallen from Salvation? Are they kicked out?

Galatians 5:4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Can a person work at the commandments, trying to keep them in their flesh and strength, and through the Spirit wait for the hope of Righteousness by faith, at the same time?

I don't think a person has to be stuck in their flesh and strength. They can come to the Lord Jesus Christ and receive His Rest. If they are saved or not saved is questioning the Power of the Cross and the faith of peoples conversion. How can you put yourself in the place of God and tell people they aren't saved when you yourself has no real idea?

lots of questions there.

How about we rely on the scripture. my position is in these posts and backed by the word.

lets not deal with "what if's" but "what is"

You seem to be missing my point. The Romans 7 man is not in Faith. I am trying to show people from the word that to be in Faith we must move to the Romans 8 man.

There are two principle ways to not be in Faith even three.

1. Don't believe full stop.
2. Try to be justified by working at the law.
3. Not having the faith to believe that we can be free from sin and overcome in every area.

The truth is you can't be saved by keeping the law but you wont be saved without keeping it.

(this is assuming you don't die shortly after accepting Christ in which you will be saved or not saved according the the light you had.)

This is clearly seen in these two texts,

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

and then:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Your not Justified by the law but you wont be justified if you do not do the law.

That is because of what we are reading in Romans, The Spirit changes us:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is the work of God in us by Faith.

The law points out sin you know this:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law condemns sin.

Thus have a look at the law and see if it condemns you or not. If it does you are under law. Repent, confess your sin and be saved.

If it does not then you are under grace by faith which has converted your soul.

The Romans 7 man is under law not Grace, The law condemns Him. But the Romans 8 man is under Grace by Faith through the workings of the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

notice that there is no condemnation to who?

Those who are in Christ Jesus. what does that look like?

They walk/do/act/speak, according to the spirit and not the flesh.

So how a person walks can tell you if a person is under law/works or Grace/Faith.

As it is written: by their fruits you shall know them.

The bible is clear, Those who are still experiencing the Romans 7 condition are yet to come to Faith.

Its simple If you sin you die/Romans 7. If you accept the Gift of Christs righteousness which converts us into new creatures we live. Rom 6:23.

People keep saying look to the cross yet they delete what the cross is about. It is not a cheap covering it is a taking away of sin, a new heart, partaking of the divine nature, being filled with the fullness of God, a new creature in the image of God, being born again.

Yet what I hear here is a reducing of Faith and Grace to no effect but a good feeling.

Grace by Faith changes us.

Gods righteousness is not just a covering it changes us, its a taking away of the sin and putting on of Christs righteousness.

Consider the Apostle Johns words:

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

This is not new theology it was even taught in the Old Testament.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

what are filthy garments?

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

They are our righteousness self works or sinful works.

What does the taking of these garments represent?

Zec 3:4 ...I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Our sin taken away, so what then does a change of raiment give?

Christs Righteousness. what is the effect?

Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

If he obeys he will sit in heaven with God. and its all based around the "BRANCH" which I am sure you know who that is.

Those who have the imputed righteousness of Christ will also do righteousness. Those who do not do righteousness do not have Christs righteousness by faith.

Study it.

Blessings.

 

[Grandpa]

.

The truth is you can't be saved by keeping the law but you wont be saved without keeping it.

Romans 7:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


Do you think there is a difference in terms between saying a saved person doesn't break any law, versus saying a saved person keeps the law?

The reason I ask is because there is a really big difference in peoples views of what keeps the law and what doesn't. Would a saved person keep the law like someone who is practicing Judaism? No. So according to at least someone that saved person isn't keeping the law.

It's a whole lot easier to say a saved person doesn't go back to the commandments to try and keep them in their will and strength, otherwise Romans 7 and most of Galatians.

But a spiritual man, who exhibits the fruit of the spirit, is not breaking any law. In fact that person would be establishing the law, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. By and through faith.

Wow. I'm not sure if its worth explaining past this. The commandment came, sin revived and I died. That is the problem. To then say they must be kept to be saved is a really mis-leading and potentially dangerous statement. The Law takes care of itself when a person abides in Christ because they don't rely on their own works but on His Work.