Romans 8:1-2, is conditional

[eternally-gratefull]

Because the word of God shows that your forgiveness is not an automatic thing. Neither can you do whatever you want without consequences. It is all through the bible.
You have to repent and then confess that before the Father. That is what is written and the way I understand it.

so in your mind then, the cross means nothing, When Jesus said it is finished, He did not mean it, he meant to say I did my part now you do your part. When Jesus said whoever places their faith in him, they will never hunger, never thirst Live forever, Never die. Has eternal life, and will be raised on the last day, He did not mean it, He meant to say we must have faith, Keep having faith and do all these good works. Then maybe, Just maybe, you might be given these things.

Thank you, But I will follow the word of God..

 

[eph610]

Because the word of God shows that your forgiveness is not an automatic thing. Neither can you do whatever you want without consequences. It is all through the bible.
You have to repent and then confess that before the Father. That is what is written and the way I understand it.

I do agree we must confess when we SIN...you seem to be suggesting that we are constantly shifted between the powers of darkness and kingdom of his dear son and that is not at all what the Bible teaches...

I do not SIN because I am afraid of consequences, I don't SIN because of my love for what he did for me...

Tell me, are you still sinner when you are saved by grace? Or do you become a SON when saved by grace, that will have to confess at the times he misses it, but I am not under any condemnation any longer...

You seem to be preaching conditional salvation and salvation by works, not the finished work of Jesus Christ

 

[Angela53510]

Why did the early churches of the 2nd and 3rd centuries and all the Protestant Reformers of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries choose Textus Receptus in preference to the Minority Text? The answer is because:

• Textus Receptus is based on the vast majority (90%) of the 5000+ Greek manuscripts in existence. That is why it is also called the Majority Text.
• Textus Receptus is not mutilated with deletions, additions and amendments, as is the Minority Text.
• Textus Receptus agrees with the earliest versions of the Bible: Peshitta (AD150) Old Latin Vulgate (AD157), the Italic Bible (AD157) etc. These Bibles were produced some 200 years before the minority Egyptian codices favoured by the Roman Church.
• Textus Receptus agrees with the vast majority of the 86,000+ citations from scripture by the early church fathers.
• Textus Receptus is untainted with Egyptian philosophy and unbelief.
• Textus Receptus strongly upholds the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith: the creation account in Genesis, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the virgin birth, his miracles, his bodily resurrection and literal return.
• Textus Receptus was - and still is - the enemy of the Roman Church. This is an important fact to bear in mind.

I have refuted this infantile argument so many times!

Yes, many more Byzantine manuscripts! Why? Because Byzantine kept their Greek language, although it was a bit later form than Koine Greek. They also had monks who did nothing but copy texts all day long, day after day.

And sometimes they copied wrong. Sometimes they heard wrong. Sometimes they were tired and made a spelling mistake. Sometimes they put a note in the margin, which the next generation of scribes moved into the text. Like Romans 8:1. Sometimes they added to a verse, and didn't even realize it. Like taking "Jesus" which was in the original and earliest manuscripts, and faithfully copied, until a scribe slipped up and and put "the Lord Jesus" and then the next generation put "The Lord Jesus Christ." Making the text about high Christology, instead of the life of Jesus on earth.

Lower textual criticism, which does not criticize the message of the Bible, but instead traces every single manuscript ever discovered of the bible is so exciting. They know in many cases exactly where the changes occurred, esp. in the Byzantine manuscripts. The manuscripts of the Bible are the most studied of any book or manuscript in the whole world. That is why the Byzantine manuscripts are not considered to be the best manuscripts, because the additions, the deletions and so forth are easy to trace.

So no to the so called "texts receptus" and yes to good Bible research and the earlier manuscripts, which do not add or juxtapose so many verses. As for the RCC, don't agree with them at all. But they did preserve the Bible at a time when the majority in the west could not read or write. And I am not saying the Byzantine scribes did not do their best - it's just their best wasn't perfect.

One of the foremost Greek Scholars in the world is presently in Turkey and hopes to spend the rest of his life there. The monasteries and the Orthodox church gave him permission to come in and catalogue and photocopy all the manuscripts that have never even been touched in millennia in libraries that have been closed for centuries! I'm excited to see what things he finds in those early manuscripts. Maybe an original, or extremely close to original autograph?!

 

[mailmandan]

You seem to be preaching conditional salvation and salvation by works, not the finished work of Jesus Christ

Unfortunately, that's what many people teach and it only seems to get worse on other Bible Discussion forums.

 

[JGIG]

You're free from the body of flesh because of Christ, now walk like you're free. Walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. The context is dealing with a believer's walk. Salvation or eternal condemnation is not the issue. When a believer walks after the flesh, he is subject to condemnation either in this life or at the JSOC.

What is the penalty for sin?

Death.

Not, "dealing with a believer's walk."

I do agree with the first sentence you wrote, with a slight adjustment so it aligns with Scripture: "You're free from sin because you are in Christ. Now go walk like you're free!"

Romans 6 is all about that concept, is expounded upon in Romans 7, and comes to a glorious conclusion in chapter 8 that there is NO condemnation for those in Christ!

But can't we have a little condemnation, pleeeeeaaaaaassssse?

You know, to keep us on the straight and narrow?

NO.

No condemnation.

Firstly, Scripture says that God is not holding sins against those who are in Christ.

Secondly, what is the condemnation that sin brings?

Death.

Not 'dealing with a believer's walk', DEATH.

Godly discipline is not punishment for our past, it's training for our future.

If you're experiencing earthly consequences for sinning, it's not because God is punishing you, it's because sinning has natural consequences in this life. The condition of being in Adam (dead, spiritually) is eternal death. The condition of being in Christ (spiritually alive) is that you have been given HIS LIFE - an INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE.

If believers could just grasp the fact that the gift of Eternal Life is not just our lives made longer, but Christ's Life put into us - ugh!!!! So many of these discussions would be moot!

Teaching that there is condemnation in this life for sinning is like teaching Karma! That is not a Christian concept, and what sets Christianity far apart from other religions!



-JGIG

 

[Mitspa]

Looks like you guys have this thread under control ... I'm out for now

 

[JGIG]

I believe the believer remaining in Christ has more to do with fellowship in this life:


1 John 1:

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


These verses indicate the fellowship the believer has with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. Wonderful fellowship.

And sometimes the believer steps out of fellowship with Father and Son through sin, as we sometimes miss the mark. We stumble in our walk.

When we stumble, we know we have an advocate with the Father ... our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1).

And when we stumble, we are instructed in 1 John 1:9 to confess our sin to Father and He is faithful and just to forgive.

The word confess is the Greek word homologeō and it means to say the same thing as another. What that means is that we agree with God that we have missed the mark laid out in His Word. He forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. And fellowship is restored.

And please note 1 John 1:3 ... those who have fellowship with Father and Son will have fellowship with each other and in 1 John 1:4 the result of fellowship with Father and Son is fullness of joy.

So everytime we sin, we have to confess SO THAT God will forgive us?

What does Scripture say is required for the forgiveness of sins?

The shedding of blood.

Did Jesus already shed His Blood?

Yes.

Is He coming back to shed more Blood?

No.

Why?

Because once was enough.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for the confession of sins - we are to come to the Throne of God's Grace boldly in our times of need, and we are to confess our sins one to another so that we can receive prayer and healing and forgiveness from those we've sinned against if needed.

Let's think this through regarding our sins in relation to God for a minute:

Jesus' sacrifice was a once for all sins, for all time sacrifice.

You sin.

You ask God for forgiveness.

In order for there to be more forgiveness, there has to be shedding of blood.

Jesus isn't coming back to shed more Blood.

So either

1. 
   [*=1]Jesus' Blood was enough to forgive all our our sins (to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness), and
   [*=1]God is not holding our sins against us (those who are in Christ).

OR . . . perhaps . . . just maybe . . .

1. 
   [*=1]We've been taught the wrong interpretation of 1 Jn. 1:9, a teaching that may not say, but means that Jesus' Blood was really not enough to cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and
   [*=1]God is holding our sins against us.

Which concept does Scripture support?

​

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unfortunately, that's what many people teach and it only seems to get worse on other Bible Discussion forums.

Could it be the falling away is happening before our very eyes?

 

[heavenly_bound]

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It should be understood that the law of the Spirit of life that makes one free from condemnation and from the law of sin and death, HAS A CONDITION ATTACHED TO IT.
That condition being, those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Those who walk after the flesh are referred to as, carnally minded, and the carnally minded look to and trust in the carnal or natural things of this world for the things they want.
The spiritually minded keep the word of God in their hearts and before their eyes, and look to God in faith through the promises of His word for the things they want.
It is written, "And the just shall live by faith", but when it comes to not only sickness, but many other things in life, many walk after the flesh for help, by seeking or looking to the natural and not after or to the Spirit.
Why is that?
Because most have not kept the word of God in their heart.
And when the floods and the storms of life come, and they will come, those who built their house on the sand (the word of doctors, or trusting in medications, treatments, or any person or thing in the natural world), will fall.
But if it is built on the word of God, it will stand. And not only will you weather the storms of life, with the floods, but the word you kept will bare fruit. And if it was for healing, then after the will of God is accomplished, you or your loved one will be healed.
If one doesn't have the faith for healing or whatever it might be for God to do for that person, then they are subject to the limits of what the natural can provide. And if that is what is necessary for that person to find relief or to survive, then that person should seek and pursue the natural, but should still do so in faith. To most, that is a blessing of God. And it is, because most don't live by the faith of God.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man drawback, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

It is written, the only way to please God is through faith. Yet if we shrink back in fear from declaring the word of God in faith, or in confident assurance that what the word of God says shall come to pass, in the face of the situation, regardless of what it may be, we are no longer walking after the Spirit, but after the flesh.
The words, draw back, mean to, shrink back in fear.
In many places around the world, declaring one's salvation does not present any threat to that person's life. No need for fear there. But what if we were to declare our healing publicly, according to the word of God, before we had any physical manifestation, and the public knew it?
Would that cause you to shrink back in fear?
Wouldn't you fear being made a fool of?
Well, what if God doesn't do anything.
Oh, the shame of it.
Isn't that what many would think? At least, that is what those who don't live by faith might think.
In most cases, sickness and disease are a result of the curse of the law of sin.
If you were not condemned, in most cases, no sickness or disease should come on you.
For it is written, Pro 26:2 As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.
There are of course exceptions.
One being for the word's sake, which would be for the purpose of causing you to fall away from believing the word of God. One of those things the word of God deals with is about our healing through the work of the cross.
The cross not only provided a way for our salvation through faith, but among other things, for our healing and deliverance as well.
For if we are saved by grace through faith, then we are also healed and delivered by grace through this same said faith. For the word saved also means, healed, delivered or protected, preserved, or made whole.
If you had kept the word of God and not fallen away, then you would still believe this.

2 Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

But those who walk by sight, the testimonies of others, from personal experience or history, or that of others, and look to and live according to the dictates of the natural, are not living or walking in or after the Spirit, nor by faith.
Therefore, I believe most Christians live in condemnation and are not free in Christ Jesus from the curse of the law of sin, because they walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit in many areas in life. In particular, concerning that of healing from sicknesses and diseases.

One last note.
IT IS THE WILL OF GOD FOR YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES TO BE HEALED, HEALTHY, WHOLE, AND PROSPEROUS.

who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This phrase is not in the manuscripts; was added by the translators!!!

 

[Gr8grace]

What is the penalty for sin?

Death.

Not, "dealing with a believer's walk."

I do agree with the first sentence you wrote, with a slight adjustment so it aligns with Scripture: "You're free from sin because you are in Christ. Now go walk like you're free!"

Romans 6 is all about that concept, is expounded upon in Romans 7, and comes to a glorious conclusion in chapter 8 that there is NO condemnation for those in Christ!

But can't we have a little condemnation, pleeeeeaaaaaassssse?

You know, to keep us on the straight and narrow?

NO.

No condemnation.

Firstly, Scripture says that God is not holding sins against those who are in Christ.

Secondly, what is the condemnation that sin brings?

Death.

Not 'dealing with a believer's walk', DEATH.

Godly discipline is not punishment for our past, it's training for our future.

If you're experiencing earthly consequences for sinning, it's not because God is punishing you, it's because sinning has natural consequences in this life. The condition of being in Adam (dead, spiritually) is eternal death. The condition of being in Christ (spiritually alive) is that you have been given HIS LIFE - an INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE.

If believers could just grasp the fact that the gift of Eternal Life is not just our lives made longer, but Christ's Life put into us - ugh!!!! So many of these discussions would be moot!

Teaching that there is condemnation in this life for sinning is like teaching Karma! That is not a Christian concept, and what sets Christianity far apart from other religions!

View attachment 159944

-JGIG

I am pretty sure John146 is saying the same thing as you. He just worded it a bit different.

I kinda like How John146 words it. Because we do have temporal condemnation in this world. Not from Christ, but from ourselves, and even worse yet, other BELIEVERS who teach loss of salvation and are condemning those who are IN Christ.

Our deeds and works that are not done from the Spirit, will be judged and condemned. Many have a hard time separating those deeds from their absolutely,positively no condemnation new creation in Christ.

I completely agree with your post.

 

[Gr8grace]

Could it be the falling away is happening before our very eyes?

I think it could be. They would have us think that it is going to be the masses foaming at the mouth,sinning to no end, and hating Jesus Christ. When in reality it is the masses thinking that they can BE their own Jesus Christ. And Imitating Him as close as possible is the way.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So everytime we sin, we have to confess SO THAT God will forgive us?

Please re-read what I wrote:

The word confess is the Greek word homologeō and it means to say the same thing as another. What that means is that we agree with God that we have missed the mark laid out in His Word.

We know when have broken fellowship with Father for whatever reason and we know when we have missed the mark. That is what the word "sin" (Greek hamartia) means ... to miss the mark. God lets us know directly by prodding us. He is very hands-on and we become convicted in our hearts. In other words, we know in our heart of hearts when we have broken fellowship.

We agree with God that we have stumbled and God, as a loving, faithful, heavenly Father opens His arms to us and brings us close to Him.


That is my understanding of 1 John 1:9.


If we do not agree, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord:

Hebrews 12:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


I think our natural tendency is to run/hide from chastening when in all actuality we should be running to it so that we might have the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby and once again partake of His holiness.

 

[Gr8grace]

Unfortunately, that's what many people teach and it only seems to get worse on other Bible Discussion forums.

I am on other forums. And I agree. I am amazed at how many grace believers are here (It may seem like just a few to us, but compared to other forums?).

 

[Gr8grace]

Please re-read what I wrote:





We know when have broken fellowship with Father for whatever reason and we know when we have missed the mark. That is what the word "sin" (Greek hamartia) means ... to miss the mark. God lets us know directly by prodding us. He is very hands-on and we become convicted in our hearts. In other words, we know in our heart of hearts when we have broken fellowship.

We agree with God that we have stumbled and God, as a loving, faithful, heavenly Father opens His arms to us and brings us close to Him.


That is my understanding of 1 John 1:9.


If we do not agree, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord:

Hebrews 12:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


I think our natural tendency is to run/hide from chastening when in all actuality we should be running to it so that we might have the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby and once again partake of His holiness.

That is my understanding. every time we sin we break fellowship with the Father. Name it and site it to God and we are back in fellowship with Him. It is acknowledging to God and God only that we stepped out of His plan. acknowledge it and move on.

One thing that get's overlooked in 1 John 1:9 is that He cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. This points to the human good aspect of our walk.

As we grow and mature in Christ, we will start to see the unrighteousness of our human Good.

1 John 1:9 is a blessing to the believer. If we name and site where we know we missed the mark, He is faithful and Just to forgive the things we didn't even know about.

And I just have to say.....this is not a relationship issue. We are saved the moment we believe, and are forever forgiven in our eternal life in Christ. This is a fellowship issue. When we sin or work from the power of our flesh, we are breaking fellowship with the Father. Prodigal son is a perfect example. Always a son, but not always in fellowship with the Father.

And one more thing. The Father didn't let the prodigal son give his weeping and mournful "sorry" speech. The Father cut him short. Name it and site it..............done.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am on other forums. And I agree. I am amazed at how many grace believers are here (It may seem like just a few to us, but compared to other forums?).

used to be alot here.. I think many of them left because they could not stand it anymore.

 

[PeterJens]

I have refuted this infantile argument so many times!

After looking at the arguments, I am now on the fence.
If some texts include walking in the spirit along with no condemnation, as a logical connection
this fits.

The reason why it fits is because being in Christ Jesus is walking in the Spirit.
To say being in Christ Jesus is walking in sin, is a denial of His words.

The reason why people want Paul to be saying there is no condemnation without
a walk, is because their walk is so poor.

To be honest the fact that a whole series of manuscripts include the phrase brings
me light, that this issue is very old, and very important.

I know simple scripture teaches the walk, and if you walk and live in the Spirit there
truly is no condemnation.

So what is odd is the idea there is no condemnation no matter how you behave, which
seems a complete miss-reading of the intent.

My bias would be towards inclusion of the phrase but it is what it is.

Awareness of the issue goes back centuries, thousands of years is always enlightening.

 

[miknik5]

The letter to the Romans was written for one purpose.
To teach the Roman believing body that they are not to lord it over their unbelieving brother and sister...
That they won't be boasting in anything about themselves at all...but only this...that it is GOD'S GRACE and MERCY alone, that HE calls whom HE calls and credits righteousness to whom HE chooses to credit righteousness to...and that not based on works, lest any man should boast...but based on our FAITH in HIS WORD and PROMISES which are all found in CHRIST JESUS...

GOD turned the whole world over to disobedience to show MERCY on whom HE will show MERCY to...

And so as to be just when HE judges and the justifier of all whose faith is in HIS SON...




Who on that day, will be boasting in their works?

 

[PeterJens]

I do agree we must confess when we SIN...you seem to be suggesting that we are constantly shifted between the powers of darkness and kingdom of his dear son and that is not at all what the Bible teaches...

I do not SIN because I am afraid of consequences, I don't SIN because of my love for what he did for me...

Tell me, are you still sinner when you are saved by grace? Or do you become a SON when saved by grace, that will have to confess at the times he misses it, but I am not under any condemnation any longer...

You seem to be preaching conditional salvation and salvation by works, not the finished work of Jesus Christ

Done deals.

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12

Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Ephesians 5:21

Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
1 Peter 1:17

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,
Heb 12:1

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2 Tim 4:7

I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.
Gal 2:2

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:14

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1 Cor 9:24

No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1 Cor 9:27

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

All the above points to effort and conditions of walking with Christ.
To say nothing is conditional is to literally deny the prize and the walk.

 

[miknik5]

For the righteousness which is of FAITH which WE preach says...do NOT say who will ascend or who will descend.

Therefore, have faith to yourself with GOD sir...and prompt your "friends" unto good works urging and encouraging one another as long as it is still the day...


Do all that you do as done to serve THE LORD and stop looking at your brother's works.
Concern yourself in what pleases THE LORD and do it...and after having done it, say, I am only an unworthy servant, I did what was expected.

Sir, no man will be displaying his "list of most righteous works" before THE THRONE OF GRACE.

All the man will be boasting in and exalting in and exclaiming is GRACE, GRACE...most excellent unfathomable GRACE...


What would you like to add to THE CAPSTONE which will beautify THE CAPSTONE?

 

[miknik5]

Please do explain for us these most "beautiful works" you have done in your walk through THE KINGDOM of GOD?