Sabbath: Colossians 2:16-17 compared with Hebrews 10:1-2/Judging Non-Sabbathkeepers

[prove-all]

You can ask them directly if they believe the teachings of Herbert Armstrong and if they believe the Sabbath is a requirement or condition of salvation.

Since you want to make this a public issue, feel free. My guess is they will evade a direct answer.

I have told you direct numerious times my view on this, but you just not hear.

again you label people and groups, and force them to answer your questions.

I have stated repeatedly over and over, that the Sabbath was given as [a blessing],

the bible also said it was a sign, a future thing to come, reveres to the comming mill.

I believe God wants use to keep it, Jesus did, God blessed it,theres sabbath observence it future.

I believe if they where not keeping pentcost,they would not have been indwelled then[fruit spirit].

I believe there is a new testament command to hold the [ a feast day]because of passover.

I have never once condemened anyone for sunday observence, those are your words.

I believe there is a false gospel that went out, just like the bible says, decieved does not mean unsaved.

I have never stepped foot in Herbert Armstrong church,in last 25 years,

only been in local sunday church, i have read lots of views on things.


so spew what you want, treat brothers in Christ how you want,

spew hat for something my God calls Holy we have a problem.


I will have to read more about armstrong, and get back to you about there rebuttal.

but then you would not read it ,because you claim not allowed to speak anything[splinter groups]

 

[sparkman]

Do you believe the Sabbath is either a condition or requirement of salvation? Simple yes or no answer.

I have told you direct numerious times my view on this, but you just not hear.

again you label people and groups, and force them to answer your questions.

I have stated repeatedly over and over, that the Sabbath was given as [a blessing],

the bible also said it was a sign, a future thing to come, reveres to the comming mill.

I believe God wants use to keep it, Jesus did, God blessed it,theres sabbath observence it future.

I believe if they where not keeping pentcost,they would not have been indwelled then[fruit spirit].

I believe there is a new testament command to hold the [ a feast day]because of passover.

I have never once condemened anyone for sunday observence, those are your words.

I believe there is a false gospel that went out, just like the bible says, decieved does not mean unsaved.

I have never stepped foot in Herbert Armstrong church,in last 25 years,

only been in local sunday church, i have read lots of views on things.


so spew what you want, treat brothers in Christ how you want,

spew hat for something my God calls Holy we have a problem.


I will have to read more about armstrong, and get back to you about there rebuttal.

but then you would not read it ,because you claim not allowed to speak anything[splinter groups]

 

[sparkman]

Do you believe the teachings of Herbert Armstrong? Simple yes or no answer.

I have told you direct numerious times my view on this, but you just not hear.

again you label people and groups, and force them to answer your questions.

I have stated repeatedly over and over, that the Sabbath was given as [a blessing],

the bible also said it was a sign, a future thing to come, reveres to the comming mill.

I believe God wants use to keep it, Jesus did, God blessed it,theres sabbath observence it future.

I believe if they where not keeping pentcost,they would not have been indwelled then[fruit spirit].

I believe there is a new testament command to hold the [ a feast day]because of passover.

I have never once condemened anyone for sunday observence, those are your words.

I believe there is a false gospel that went out, just like the bible says, decieved does not mean unsaved.

I have never stepped foot in Herbert Armstrong church,in last 25 years,

only been in local sunday church, i have read lots of views on things.


so spew what you want, treat brothers in Christ how you want,

spew hat for something my God calls Holy we have a problem.


I will have to read more about armstrong, and get back to you about there rebuttal.

but then you would not read it ,because you claim not allowed to speak anything[splinter groups]

 

[prove-all]

Do you believe the teachings of Herbert Armstrong? Simple yes or no answer.

I believe the bible , not mans tradations like christmas and easter,

you can do what you want, your choice.

if Armstrong quotes the bible, do i throw it out because he said it

 

[sparkman]

Do you believe British Israelism? I know you do because you told me you do.

Do you believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the only two in the Godhead? I know you do because you told me you do.

Do you believe that you are a god being in embryo form, and you will be born into the Godhead which you call "God family" at the resurrection? I know you do because you've told me that.

These are all teachings of Herbert Armstrong.

I believe the bible , not mans tradations like christmas and easter,

you can do what you want, your choice.

if Armstrong quotes the bible, do i throw it out because he said it

 

[sparkman]

Do you believe the Sabbath is either a condition or requirement of salvation? Simple yes or no answer.

Answer this question. Simple yes or no answer. Is keeping the Sabbath a condition or requirement of salvation?

 

[prove-all]

Do you believe British Israelism? I know you do because you told me you do.

Do you believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the only two in the Godhead? I know you do because you told me you do.

Do you believe that you are a god being in embryo form, and you will be born into the Godhead which you call "God family" at the resurrection? I know you do because you've told me that.

These are all teachings of Herbert Armstrong.

again I believe the bible above all else

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

 

[sparkman]

The answer speaks for itself.

I have no problems labeling someone who believes they are going to join the Godhead in the resurrection as a member of a cult.

I have no doubt that you believe keeping the Sabbath is a condition or requirement of salvation too. You just won't admit it.

again I believe the bible above all else

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

 

[robinriley]

After I asked sparkman this question, he responded to me in private, but mentioned that prove-all and john832 believed this way. I wanted to offer these folks to respond and clarify if they choose.

(Robin)
Not that I have any equity in this topic thread, but the fact that you were told something in a private message ... that you then expound upon in the public forum ... I find this a bit disconcerting; and believer there are forum rules against such behavior ... or there certainly should be.

Be that as it may, my one comment, here (I've made many elsewhere) concerns Mr. Sparkman initial quote:

"Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."


Couple things:
1) what trasnlation is this from ... it's poorly done, so we should know this so we can avoid it in the future.
2) in his initial post, there was something said about "exact language" ... to which I'd beg to differ, there are
a number of un-exact words, but the one that stands out like a sore thumb is ..."substance" ...

It doesn't matter if your a sabbath observer or not ... I frankly dont care, it's none of my business ... but no
matter what school of thought you hail from, you certainly should be "schooled" enough ... or willing to be ...
to know that the Greek noun "sOma" {4983 N-NSN} simply does not say any such thing ... that's someone's
doctrine speaking to you, not a real translation, in other words (pun intended) ... the word actually sats "a body"

 

[sparkman]

flbob..do you think we will get some rest on the Sabbath from them?

I don't think arguing is against their version of the Sabbath though.

Lord deliver us from 'Torah observance.' My goodness,
Galatians

 

[sparkman]

You conveniently didn't post the remarks about "ignorant and unstable" people. By the way I agree with those verses, but the question is who is ignorant and unstable...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114490-unanswerable-questions.html

- so these bible verses are bullying you? thats what was posted, how are they attacking you?

The Unanswerable Questions

"Test everything, hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If you were to ask 10 fellow christians which commandments of the Bible we should be following today, you would likely get 10 different answers. It's common today for people to say that certain parts of God's law have been "done away with" or "nailed to the cross" or "only for the jews" or "fulfilled so that we don't have to obey them anymore". But is this the truth?

This thread is addressed to anyone who believes that certain parts of the law no longer apply. See how many of the following questions you can answer without causing contradiction in scripture. Please keep in mind, the purpose here is to study the word of God, and to seek his will. We need to leave personal feelings and pre-concieved ideas out of our reading, and ask ourselves, "what does God want". I am not attemping to cause any hostility or division here. Only to reveal the truth.

1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?
"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)

2. If the law of God is freedom. how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?
"I will always obey your law, or ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)

3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?
"Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights." (psalm 119:143)


4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)

5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

7. If God is the word, and God does not change, how can we say the word of God has changed?
(John 1:1) (Malachi 3:6)

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22) (psalm 1:2)

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do so many christians think that we are not supposed to practice all scripture?
(1 Timothy 3:16)

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?
"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)




16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?
"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

- show me what verse above offends you or not believe ?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115932-paul-you-never-knew-2.html

-know idea who you say accuse or bully you in this link above



http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/114682-unanswerable-questions-extended.html

- he repeated bible verses , you attacked him,
you have been condescending to sabbath keepers too.




​

 

[Yonah]

What percentage of Sabbath/festival keepers do you think are Armstrongites and Seventh Day Adventists?

Most of them are.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not judge those observe the Sabbath and the festivals without claiming others need to, as conditions, requirements, or necessary fruits of salvation. The number of such individuals is very high, and as you know, I am speaking from my own experience. I did exactly the same thing.

My purpose here is to make sure that less experienced Christians aren't led into doctrinal error or bullied by such individuals. A lot of bullying goes on here in this regard. I will be educating them on the logical flaws regarding this subject so that they can defend themselves from such bullies and heretics who would trouble them.

In addition, those who claim that they don't judge others acknowledge that others should be keeping them too, and that it is part of God's expectations for them.

you state you do not judge them yet you generalize based on your experience and the statement you made saying most of those who do are former SDA (or current) or cog, the fact is the feast I attend the largest percentage I meet came form Baptist and other (mainline Christian) faiths, its just it seems a bit unfair for you to make assessments based on your own exposure to ONE small part of the overall majority of those who do observe the Sabbath (as commanded in EXO. 20) question how many fest have you attended over the past ..... lets say 5 years, is it really enough to make this statement with any real accuracy?

 

[sparkman]

you state you do not judge them yet you generalize based on your experience and the statement you made saying most of those who do are former SDA (or current) or cog, the fact is the feast I attend the largest percentage I meet came form Baptist and other (mainline Christian) faiths, its just it seems a bit unfair for you to make assessments based on your own exposure to ONE small part of the overall majority of those who do observe the Sabbath (as commanded in EXO. 20) question how many fest have you attended over the past ..... lets say 5 years, is it really enough to make this statement with any real accuracy?

Make all the claims you want. I know the vast majority of Sabbathkeepers consider not keeping the Sabbath to be a sin and look down on other believers despite their claims.

Why would I go to a "feast"? There is no one to tell me where that is, as the Old Covenant specifies, and it doesn't apply to me as a New Covenant believer anyways. The Old Covenant was made between God and Israel, not God and Christians.

 

[sparkman]

By the way, that Hebrew pictographic stuff is nonsense and has been refuted by Hebrew scholars. In fact it's laughable to hold that position.

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/HebrewLng-DrBrown.pdf

you state you do not judge them yet you generalize based on your experience and the statement you made saying most of those who do are former SDA (or current) or cog, the fact is the feast I attend the largest percentage I meet came form Baptist and other (mainline Christian) faiths, its just it seems a bit unfair for you to make assessments based on your own exposure to ONE small part of the overall majority of those who do observe the Sabbath (as commanded in EXO. 20) question how many fest have you attended over the past ..... lets say 5 years, is it really enough to make this statement with any real accuracy?

 

[flob]

flbob..do you think we will get some rest on the Sabbath from them?
I don't think arguing is against their version of the Sabbath though.

If ones are not open, then it's a vanity to talk about it.
I have talked to some SDA whom I felt knew Christ. And others who were-----
seemingly demonic. In their particular teaching of law-keeping. Avoid foolish things
Paul said. Lord have mercy. May we rest in You

 

[robinriley]

2:17* ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων, τὸ δὲ σῶμα χριστοῦ.
(which of the [things] intending, a shadow it be, yet the body [it be] of [the] Anointed). (~Robin)

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (~ undisclosed Version, Sparkman)

(Robin)
Alright, almost all translations read the verb, here, as "to come," just like in Sparkman's quote ... the verb "μελλόντων"... transliterated as "mellontOn"... present active participle (3195 V-PAP-GPN)However,if you were to ponder upon this, it's not an infinitive, nor does the word, here, express anyfuture tense flavor. Fact of the matter, it's more a verb of the meaning to "stand for" "mean" "purpose"and "to intend" ... that is, this verse, going by what the verb really says, isn't, particularly talkingabout things "to come," but rather about what things "mean," "indicate," or "intend" ..."...which of the [things] intending, a shadow it be" ...That is, the rituals being talked about, they were only a shadow of something else ...they were only typical, or indicative of certain aspects of Christ.Note: as the body is OF Christ, so is the shadow of these rituals; that is neitherthe body nor the shadow (or the ritual that it is typical of) are Christ, they are of Christ.Moving right alone ... the verb here, Strongs# 2195 is used 14 times in Pauls epistles, and in each and every one of these verses, the word-thought conveyed is always about "intending"or "meaning" or "indicative of" or "intending" ... The reaons I bring this to your attention, is that doctrines are built upon such foundations of clay ...that is, if we are told that this verb means "to come" then it's much easier for some to impose theirown doctrinal slant into this verse ... but if we realized that it's not, necessarily, talking aboutsomething ..."to come" ... but more accurately is indicative of "intending" or "stands for," then the knowledable reader can pause and ponder more easily what might actually be, being said ... and come to their own spirit led understanding. We are, indeed, dependent upon God revealing things to us, but we do have someresponsibilty to at least have an open mind ... or be willing, at least, to hear alternate points of view.

These are God-breathed words towards us ... so why wouldn't we want to be extra careful with them ... FIRST read them for what they say,
before allowing some half-witted doctine sated so-called "translator" to trash them for us, just so he can peddle his book, and his bias?



***

which [things] {3739 R-NPN} it be {1510 V-PAI-3S} a shadow {4639 N-NSF} of the [things] {3588 T-GPN} of intending {3195 V-PAP-GPN} the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} yet {1161 CONJ} a body {4983 N-NSN} of Anointed/ of Christ {5547 N-GSM}

 

[sparkman]

If ones are not open, then it's a vanity to talk about it.
I have talked to some SDA whom I felt knew Christ. And others who were-----
seemingly demonic. In their particular teaching of law-keeping. Avoid foolish things
Paul said. Lord have mercy. May we rest in You

You are right on that. Hardened ground. I'm to the point now where I've given up on it. Some of these guys just enjoy the arguing anyways.

 

[sparkman]

you state you do not judge them yet you generalize based on your experience and the statement you made saying most of those who do are former SDA (or current) or cog, the fact is the feast I attend the largest percentage I meet came form Baptist and other (mainline Christian) faiths, its just it seems a bit unfair for you to make assessments based on your own exposure to ONE small part of the overall majority of those who do observe the Sabbath (as commanded in EXO. 20) question how many fest have you attended over the past ..... lets say 5 years, is it really enough to make this statement with any real accuracy?

It's not a hard statement to make. Do you know how many millions of SDAs there are? 18 million. Do you actually think there are more Sabbathkeepers of other groups than that?

 

[sparkman]

After I asked sparkman this question, he responded to me in private, but mentioned that prove-all and john832 believed this way. I wanted to offer these folks to respond and clarify if they choose.

Matt,

As evidence of my claim, see the below. Go back to the original post and see where prove-all indicated that he liked the comment, implying agreement.

In previous interactions with both of these guys, they have acknowledged that they believe the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. I was a member of that cult so I know what they teach thoroughly. I also know that prove-all in particular evades answering direct questions in this regard.

I have very good reason to be cynical toward Sabbathkeepers in general, but particularly Armstrongites. I know the position of the church well, and they do teach that keeping the Saturday Sabbath is a condition or requirement of salvation. They also teach other nonsense including denying the Trinity, the personhood of the holy spirit, and claim that they are gods in embryonic form that are to be born into the Godhead at the resurrection. They are in the process of becoming perfect to reach that status. prove-all also indicated in one post that he thought it might be his purpose to bring me back into the true fold again.

In addition to all of this, they think that the rest of Christianity is blinded spiritually..all Catholic and Protestant churches that observe Sunday, and that they are "so-called Christians" following a counterfeit Christianity.

Here is the post which prove-all liked and which john832 wrote:

Can a true believer deny that not murdering is a condition of salvation?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John writes here that those who KEEP the Commandments are given the right to the tree of life and yes the fourth Commandment is one of those Commandments.

You seem to want to separate out ONE of the Commandments and say it si not necessary to keep it. If it is unnecessary to keep the fourth one, what about the third or fifth? Can one take God's holy name in vain, use it in all sorts of filthy communication and still be in the Kingdom?

What about dishonoring your parents?

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Paul seemed to think it was still in effect.



No, they are in the same category as those who break any of the other nine Commandments.

Would you believe that a liar is a true believer?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How about those who bow down to idols? how about adulterers? Those who practice Wicca or participate in séances? Are they true believers?

Those who ignore and break the Commandments without repenting are not true believers.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Breaking any of the Ten Commandments is a sin.

Please answer for all of us here whether you believe one can ignore and willfully break any of the Ten Commandments and be a converted Christian.



No, I do not. If the trinity doctrine is true, who died? If God is one in three phases (Yep, I endured the Nature of God tapes from K. J. Stavrinides).

Who was on earth and who was in heaven? How did the Father forsake Christ while He was on the stake?

Here is an interesting question for you, in every epistle in the New Testament, Paul sends a greeting from the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit is NEVER mentioned. Hmmm if the Holy Spirit is a person, why did Paul snub him?



Yes I do, don't you?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God is making man after His image and LIKENESS. What does it mean to be like Christ?

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You don't believe you will be LIKE Christ? You think you will be something different?

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Maybe you don't believe that we are the family of God, Paul did and so do I.



Seems to me that I have not ever left any doubt about what I believe but just for you, I have restated the truth from scripture.



You have been deceived by those who led the church into apostasy. The Tkach's, Feazel, Albrecht and company led the church away from truth and sound doctrine.

Hope these answers are clear enough and straightforward enough for you. I try not to leave any doubt about what I know to be truth.

 

[sparkman]

After I asked sparkman this question, he responded to me in private, but mentioned that prove-all and john832 believed this way. I wanted to offer these folks to respond and clarify if they choose.

Matt,

In addition note the thread below. prove-all liked this post implying agreement with it.

It's a widely held belief that the Great Whore in Revelation is the Vatican. It matches every description. She "sits on many waters", introduced countless paganistic abominations into christianity, has persecuted the saints, banned the Bible in the middle ages, and has committed fornication with the kings of the earth.

The "harlot daughters" that came out of her are likely the protestant churches. Most of the catholic churche's heresies carried over to them.

So it should be of no suprise that none of these churches obey the sabbath command, and instead honor sunday.

Note that Protestant churches are identified as following paganism, a primary evidence is their disobedience to the Sabbath.

Do you have any problem, Matt, with seeing that this is persecution? These individuals claim that the rest of us are following a false form of Christianity. prove-all liked this post, implying agreement.

Again, I refer to Colossians 2:16-17 and Galatians 4:21ff in regards to this. Those who want to be under the Old Covenant judge those who are not. Saying that someone is following a false form of Christianity is definitely judging them.