Sabbath

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Deade

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God's sabbath in my reading denotes sundown on Friday to sundown Saturday are the hours of sabbath.
I don't know where you are but in the states many businesses accommodate a person's religious holy day request for day off. It normally should not be an issue for the Friday sunset start time. Many people work the hours of 9A.M to 5p.m. Asking then for Saturday off as a personal sabbath day I wouldn't think provides a problem.

I think whatever day a member of Christ's body feels called to spend time in spiritual contemplation is their ideal. The sabbath is for us , an opportunity and gift to be at one with God and not distracted by the world. sundown F/S or Sunday shouldn't be an issue when the sabbath is made for us.
God knows enough has been done to confuse the days issue due to prior generations defining precise day(s) and time. He knows the sincere heart that enters sabbath rest. I think that is what should matter really.
Unfortunately what we think does not enter into God's truths. That God established the Sabbath at creation that was Pre-Sinai Covenant. God made the day holy and set it apart.

The god of this world would have you argue that point until the cows come home. In fact, he won't let you keep it. You start trying to honor God Friday sunset to Saturday sunset and watch as the whole world comes against you, starting with your family. :cool:
 

Grandpa

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Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


I find the bible really easy to understand. But there was a time when it was confusing. Before I came to Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
 

mailmandan

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Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I find the bible really easy to understand. But there was a time when it was confusing. Before I came to Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Certain people are unable to make the transition from the old covenant into the new covenant and end up mixing law and grace. The end result is salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Subtle mixture of law and grace which is a perversion of the gospel. :cautious:

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.
 

Studyman

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="Grandpa, post: 3702204, member: 93985"]Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
The Jews were still pushing the OLD Priesthood where sins were cleansed by taking an animal to the Levite Priest, who would then perform "Work's of the Law" designated for the atonement of sins. These Jews had lost sight of what the Priesthood foreshadowed because they had corrupted and omitted so much of God's instructions.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Levite Priests, Pharisees) bind heavy burdens (Yoke) and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Because they had rejected much of God's Law, and had created their own, They became blind.

Rom. 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

They didn't know Jesus when He came and continued to rely on their version of the Levite Priesthood sacrificial "works of the law " for justification of sins.

Many "who come in Christ's name" falsely preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" salvation by following God's Commandments. In this way they deflect the wickedness of man away from man, and attempt to place the problem on God's Instructions. They teach God's instructions are against mankind, not their own rebellious wicked mind. The serpent did the same thing to Eve in the very beginning.


But Jesus clearly exposed the Mainstream Preachers of His time as Liars who were creators of their own religious traditions, and though parts of their religion identified with the God of the Bible, "tithing, Priesthood duties, ", they had clearly added, as well as "omitted" some the most important parts, Mercy, Judgment, Faith.

Had the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time had faith in God as did Abraham and Zechariahs, they would have known the Messiah when He came. But they rejected God and His instructions. Neither Abraham nor Zechariahs did this.
 

posthuman

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Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

this sure doesn't appear to be a reference to Gentiles by nature performing sacrificial blood atonement rituals.
 

Studyman

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="mailmandan, post: 3702207, member: 193497"]Certain people are unable to make the transition from the old covenant into the new covenant and end up mixing law and grace. The end result is salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Subtle mixture of law and grace which is a perversion of the gospel. :cautious:

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.


The New Covenant the God of the Bible created is different than the New Covenant you preach.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Modern religions try to use this "New Covenant" as cover for the same rebellion the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time exhibited towards God.

You say God's Holy Sabbath that He created for man is part of the Old Covenant the Lord mentioned in Jer. 31. Yet, the Covenant God speaks of doesn't mention any thing about Him changing, altering, removing any of His Commands.

He only speaks to how God's Law is administered. (He writes them on our heart, as opposed to the "Old" Covenant of going to a Levite Priest or Scribe to hear His Words.

And He speaks to how sins are forgiven. No more animal sacrificial "Works of the Law" performed by Levite Priests, He forgives us Himself.

And even when you are shown this error of yours, you still continue in it, just like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time continued in their religious traditions even after the Christ showed them, in their own Bible, their error.


*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ
.

These are "shadows" of something God has given or will give His People.

What is the image of the men's hair shampoo model they call Jesus a shadow of? What is Christmas a shadow of? Of course the Messiah didn't let any man judge Him for following God's instructions over mans. Neither did Paul. And Paul is telling anyone not to let any man judge them for obedience to God's "Feasts" because there is a Spiritual reason why they were written. They foreshadow an important event, many which have yet to come.

Whereas religious man's High Days are a shadow of nothing.


Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.


The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time refuse to submit to God's Righteousness, which David said is His Laws. They rejected His Laws and created their own righteousness, as does the Mainstream Preachers of our time.

Had they "believed" in the Messiah and had "DONE" as the Messiah instructed, or at the very least, "Walked even as He Walked" they would have known which traditions were of God and which were of men.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE
.

Believe who? Religious man? Or the Messiah. I pick the Messiah.

Luke 16:
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 

Studyman

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Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

this sure doesn't appear to be a reference to Gentiles by nature performing sacrificial blood atonement rituals.
Why would Gentiles naturally gravitate towards a Law that God specifically designed and gave only to the Tribe of Levi?

However, "Thou Shall Not Kill" would be a "natural" law for the preservation of mankind, would it not?
 

gb9

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The New Covenant the God of the Bible created is different than the New Covenant you preach.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Modern religions try to use this "New Covenant" as cover for the same rebellion the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time exhibited towards God.

You say God's Holy Sabbath that He created for man is part of the Old Covenant the Lord mentioned in Jer. 31. Yet, the Covenant God speaks of doesn't mention any thing about Him changing, altering, removing any of His Commands.

He only speaks to how God's Law is administered. (He writes them on our heart, as opposed to the "Old" Covenant of going to a Levite Priest or Scribe to hear His Words.

And He speaks to how sins are forgiven. No more animal sacrificial "Works of the Law" performed by Levite Priests, He forgives us Himself.

And even when you are shown this error of yours, you still continue in it, just like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time continued in their religious traditions even after the Christ showed them, in their own Bible, their error.


.

These are "shadows" of something God has given or will give His People.

What is the image of the men's hair shampoo model they call Jesus a shadow of? What is Christmas a shadow of? Of course the Messiah didn't let any man judge Him for following God's instructions over mans. Neither did Paul. And Paul is telling anyone not to let any man judge them for obedience to God's "Feasts" because there is a Spiritual reason why they were written. They foreshadow an important event, many which have yet to come.

Whereas religious man's High Days are a shadow of nothing.




The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time refuse to submit to God's Righteousness, which David said is His Laws. They rejected His Laws and created their own righteousness, as does the Mainstream Preachers of our time.

Had they "believed" in the Messiah and had "DONE" as the Messiah instructed, or at the very least, "Walked even as He Walked" they would have known which traditions were of God and which were of men.

.

Believe who? Religious man? Or the Messiah. I pick the Messiah.

Luke 16:
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jerimiah 30- God specifically tells Jerimiah these things in 31 will happen after they return to their land from Babylon.

so, if you were not in ancient Israel , about to be deported to Babylon , then be sent back, that covenant does not apply.

you just cannot pick and chose which covenant you are under, you have no authority to do so.

you have no authority over Scripture , to push some and ignore others.

you have no authority over context , and what was said to whom, and when it was said.

will you agree you have no authority to do these things?
 

Studyman

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Jerimiah 30- God specifically tells Jerimiah these things in 31 will happen after they return to their land from Babylon.

so, if you were not in ancient Israel , about to be deported to Babylon , then be sent back, that covenant does not apply.

you just cannot pick and chose which covenant you are under, you have no authority to do so.

you have no authority over Scripture , to push some and ignore others.

you have no authority over context , and what was said to whom, and when it was said.

will you agree you have no authority to do these things?
So then you preach Jeremiah 31 is not the promise of the New Covenant brought by the Messiah?
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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So then you preach Jeremiah 31 is not the promise of the New Covenant brought by the Messiah?
no, I do not preach this- the Bible says so. I just told you what Jerimiah 30 says. that is Scripture also.

we are under the Abrahamic Covenant- " through your seed all the families of the Earth shall be blessed."

you are part of a family, and you are on the earth , right?

you are not standing in ancient Israel after the return from Babylon are you?


you did not answer the question- do you have authority over Scripture?
 

posthuman

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Why would Gentiles naturally gravitate towards a Law that God specifically designed and gave only to the Tribe of Levi?

However, "Thou Shall Not Kill" would be a "natural" law for the preservation of mankind, would it not?
yup

thereby contradicting your personal, private definition of the scriptural term "works of the Law"
 

mailmandan

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The New Covenant the God of the Bible created is different than the New Covenant you preach.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Modern religions try to use this "New Covenant" as cover for the same rebellion the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time exhibited towards God.
The New Covenant that the God of the Bible established is different than the Old Covenant (repackaged) "version" of the New Covenant that you preach.

You say God's Holy Sabbath that He created for man is part of the Old Covenant the Lord mentioned in Jer. 31. Yet, the Covenant God speaks of doesn't mention any thing about Him changing, altering, removing any of His Commands.
Sabbatarians often quote Mark 2:27 to imply that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man." When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.

The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given only to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.

Once again, Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

He only speaks to how God's Law is administered. (He writes them on our heart, as opposed to the "Old" Covenant of going to a Levite Priest or Scribe to hear His Words.
Since the Old Covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made the Old Covenant obsolete to "put legally into place" the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). *Yet you still have not yet made the complete transition from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, which explains why you pervert the gospel by mixing law and grace. :cautious:

The moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the New Covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
 

mailmandan

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And He speaks to how sins are forgiven. No more animal sacrificial "Works of the Law" performed by Levite Priests, He forgives us Himself.
Hebrews 10:4 - For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’ ” 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

And even when you are shown this error of yours, you still continue in it, just like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time continued in their religious traditions even after the Christ showed them, in their own Bible, their error.
Same old straw man argument. :rolleyes: I preach the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) and not religious traditions or your perverted gospel. All you do is pervert the gospel by mixing law and grace and the end result is salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

These are "shadows" of something God has given or will give His People.
In Romans 14:1-23, the apostle Paul says: ".. One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind...(NASB)." In other words, for the Christian, the Apostle is saying that no day is to be regarded holier than another. Although the Torah was read every Saturday in the synagogues, the early Gentile Christians were never commanded to be circumcised, or to rest on Saturday as the Jews were (Acts 15:1-21). You turn the "shadow" into an idol and reject the substance.

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that Paul is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths" as certain Sabbatarians try to argue. The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

festival - yearly Sabbaths,
a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.

When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed:

"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."

Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",

days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)
months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)
seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)
and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)

*Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy days, including the weekly Sabbath.

What is the image of the men's hair shampoo model they call Jesus a shadow of? What is Christmas a shadow of? Of course the Messiah didn't let any man judge Him for following God's instructions over mans. Neither did Paul. And Paul is telling anyone not to let any man judge them for obedience to God's "Feasts" because there is a Spiritual reason why they were written. They foreshadow an important event, many which have yet to come.

Whereas religious man's High Days are a shadow of nothing.
Men's hair shampoo model? LOL People celebrate the birth of Christ on Christmas. Such a horrible tradition, huh? Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas and they also do not believe that Jesus is God. Which cult are you mixed up in that has brain washed you to believe all of this baloney that you continue to peddle? :unsure:

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time refuse to submit to God's Righteousness, which David said is His Laws. They rejected His Laws and created their own righteousness, as does the Mainstream Preachers of our time.
Turning keeping the Sabbath into a legalistic prescription for the Church under the New Covenant (contrary to Colossians 2:16-17) and teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) is creating your own righteousness (self righteous works system) and is refusing to submit to God's Righteousness.

Had they "believed" in the Messiah and had "DONE" as the Messiah instructed, or at the very least, "Walked even as He Walked" they would have known which traditions were of God and which were of men.
Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is not doing as the Messiah instructed in regards to receiving eternal life (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and modern day misguided teachers of the law do not walk even as Jesus walked by preaching legalism.

Believe who? Religious man? Or the Messiah. I pick the Messiah.
Believe the gospel. Religious man trusts in works for salvation and not exclusively in the Messiah. Teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is neither believing the gospel nor picking the Messiah. You need to stop kidding yourself.

Luke 16:
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Modern day misguided teachers of the law have God's full revelation in His completed Word, yet they also refuse to repent and will not be persuaded, though one rose the dead. :(
 

Deade

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New Covenant
Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.

Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Do you see the direct link between Jerimiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?

Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”

First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”

Next It speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28,29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. :cool:
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Why would Gentiles naturally gravitate towards a Law that God specifically designed and gave only to the Tribe of Levi?

However, "Thou Shall Not Kill" would be a "natural" law for the preservation of mankind, would it not?
First you quote the KJV of that commandment. Kill in 1611 meant murder. You need to go with a modern translation to avoid the language differences 400 years has made on the English language. Language changes over the years. Latin has become Italian over 2 thousand years. English is a polyglot language of Celtic, Latin, old German, and old French. That is why we have so many rules with exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions. In Latin the ending us is masculine singular and ae is masculine plural. The ae is pronounced like a long i. Today cactus plural cacti, Latin derivation. There are Celtic, German, and French rules as well. Makes people learning English go nuts. Other languages have very consistent rules. To see the changes try reading Choucer in the original wording. I threw up my hands.

Point being avoid the KJV, go with a modern translation.
 

Lillywolf

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Aug 29, 2018
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Unfortunately what we think does not enter into God's truths. That God established the Sabbath at creation that was Pre-Sinai Covenant. God made the day holy and set it apart.

The god of this world would have you argue that point until the cows come home. In fact, he won't let you keep it. You start trying to honor God Friday sunset to Saturday sunset and watch as the whole world comes against you, starting with your family. :cool:
Great post.
Do you observe the set aside sabbath as traditionally scheduled? Friday to Saturday, sundown?
 

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 ...
OK. Let's be unbiased and fully understand Paul's letter to the Colossians...

Background

locations_of_pauls_letters.gif

1) Colossae was a city of Phrygia (Greek kingdom) in Asia Minor. At the time of Paul's letters the culture of Colossae was a mixture of pagan religions (from their Greek mythology), Jewish and gnostic mysticism, culminating in the worship of angels like Archangel Michael by the first century. ([1]Colossae - Wikipedia; [2]The Life and Death of Colossae)

This was their starting point: Gentiles following pagan customs & traditions.

Notice from the map that Ephesus (a place Paul stayed during his ministry) is near Colossae. Also, a google search will show that the 7 churches of Revelation are found around and between the cities of Ephesus and Colossae. Paul never visited Colossae but the influence of his ministry had spread there (i.e. people who heard Paul preach the gospel in Ephesus themselves went preaching to people in Colossae, most likely the person named Epaphras).

So we have a sort of next-gen apostle starting an "assembly" in a predominantly pagan community. So Paul audience is "formerly pagan" gentiles who have head the gospel of Christ and have converted to the faith.


2) Paul's letter begins...

Colossians 1:4-6
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and brings forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:



Paul acknowledges these GENTILES (i.e. FORMER PAGANS) and that they heard the gospel of Christ...


Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Paul is encouraging these former pagans who have come out of darkness (once enemies of Yah) into the light of Christ, to continue in the faith they've heard and not be moved. Again, their former life was living as one of the pagan culture of Colossae.


Colossians 2:2-4
2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.



Paul wishes he could see them face to face to comfort them and encourage them and give them understanding to protect these former pagans; these new gentile converts - who live among their pagan neighbors with all of their syncretism (pagan mixing of beliefs) - from men who would deceive them with tempting words turning them away from their NEW FAITH.


3) The crux of Paul's concern...

Colossians 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:



Again, Paul is writing to FORMER PAGAN GENTILES, living among pagans, who have converted to the faith of Christ. He is warning against these non-pagans falling back into the pagan life, particularly the life of syncretism that Colossae is known for. These are new spiritual babies who are not yet strong in the faith. This portion of the letter say NOTHING against following any of Yah's laws, including Sabbath.


Corinthians 2:11-15
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.



Next, point for point Paul gives the reasons why these new believers are complete in Christ WITHOUT any of the paganism the people of Colossae were living around:

- They are circumcised by Yah
- They are buried with Christ and so dead to sin
- They are resurrected with Christ by faith in the power of Yah
- They are forgiven of their sins, having those written judgments against them blotted out; nailed to the cross
- They have taken the power from the powers of this world and have overcome


4) THEREFORE Paul concludes...

Colossians 2:16-23
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



In FULL context of everything - including who Paul is talking to, where they live, who they live around, what he's been talking about - Paul is telling these NEW CONVERTS TO THE FAITH not to let any of those PAGANS judge them in what they NOW eat and drink ("abstaining from blood and meat sacrificed to idols" like their neighbors would have been consuming), respect of a Holiday (like the new festivals they WOULD NOW BE celebrating as new converts to the faith of Christ, unlike their pagan neighbors), or of new moon or of sabbath days (that they WOULD NOW BE honoring as opposed to their pagan neighbors). As they do everything Christ would do, do not let any of their pagan neighbors judge them.


Colossians 2:18-23
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.


20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.



Paul continues to warn against anyone of those pagans deceiving them into worshiping angels and other man-made ceremonies like the Gnostic pagan cults were keen on worshiping through their pagan traditions, EVEN IF they have a show a wisdom to them (like washing hands before eating for example).

----

At no time in Colossians 2 was Paul instructing its audience NOT to obey the Sabbath day but instructing them not to let others judge them in obey things like it that are found in the faith of Christ (because if Christ did them then so do his followers).
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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OK. Let's be unbiased and fully understand Paul's letter to the Colossians...

Background

View attachment 187740

1) Colossae was a city of Phrygia (Greek kingdom) in Asia Minor. At the time of Paul's letters the culture of Colossae was a mixture of pagan religions (from their Greek mythology), Jewish and gnostic mysticism, culminating in the worship of angels like Archangel Michael by the first century. ([1]Colossae - Wikipedia; [2]The Life and Death of Colossae)

This was their starting point: Gentiles following pagan customs & traditions.

Notice from the map that Ephesus (a place Paul stayed during his ministry) is near Colossae. Also, a google search will show that the 7 churches of Revelation are found around and between the cities of Ephesus and Colossae. Paul never visited Colossae but the influence of his ministry had spread there (i.e. people who heard Paul preach the gospel in Ephesus themselves went preaching to people in Colossae, most likely the person named Epaphras).

So we have a sort of next-gen apostle starting an "assembly" in a predominantly pagan community. So Paul audience is "formerly pagan" gentiles who have head the gospel of Christ and have converted to the faith.


2) Paul's letter begins...

Colossians 1:4-6
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and brings forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


Paul acknowledges these GENTILES (i.e. FORMER PAGANS) and that they heard the gospel of Christ...


Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Paul is encouraging these former pagans who have come out of darkness (once enemies of Yah) into the light of Christ, to continue in the faith they've heard and not be moved. Again, their former life was living as one of the pagan culture of Colossae.


Colossians 2:2-4
2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.


Paul wishes he could see them face to face to comfort them and encourage them and give them understanding to protect these former pagans; these new gentile converts - who live among their pagan neighbors with all of their syncretism (pagan mixing of beliefs) - from men who would deceive them with tempting words turning them away from their NEW FAITH.


3) The crux of Paul's concern...

Colossians 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Again, Paul is writing to FORMER PAGAN GENTILES, living among pagans, who have converted to the faith of Christ. He is warning against these non-pagans falling back into the pagan life, particularly the life of syncretism that Colossae is known for. These are new spiritual babies who are not yet strong in the faith. This portion of the letter say NOTHING against following any of Yah's laws, including Sabbath.


Corinthians 2:11-15
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Next, point for point Paul gives the reasons why these new believers are complete in Christ WITHOUT any of the paganism the people of Colossae were living around:

- They are circumcised by Yah
- They are buried with Christ and so dead to sin
- They are resurrected with Christ by faith in the power of Yah
- They are forgiven of their sins, having those written judgments against them blotted out; nailed to the cross
- They have taken the power from the powers of this world and have overcome


4) THEREFORE Paul concludes...

Colossians 2:16-23
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


In FULL context of everything - including who Paul is talking to, where they live, who they live around, what he's been talking about - Paul is telling these NEW CONVERTS TO THE FAITH not to let any of those PAGANS judge them in what they NOW eat and drink ("abstaining from blood and meat sacrificed to idols" like their neighbors would have been consuming), respect of a Holiday (like the new festivals they WOULD NOW BE celebrating as new converts to the faith of Christ, unlike their pagan neighbors), or of new moon or of sabbath days (that they WOULD NOW BE honoring as opposed to their pagan neighbors). As they do everything Christ would do, do not let any of their pagan neighbors judge them.


Colossians 2:18-23
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


Paul continues to warn against anyone of those pagans deceiving them into worshiping angels and other man-made ceremonies like the Gnostic pagan cults were keen on worshiping through their pagan traditions, EVEN IF they have a show a wisdom to them (like washing hands before eating for example).

----

At no time in Colossians 2 was Paul instructing its audience NOT to obey the Sabbath day but instructing them not to let others judge them in obey things like it that are found in the faith of Christ (because if Christ did them then so do his followers).
General rule about forums. The longer the post the fewer will read it. I didn't bother to try!
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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G

General rule about forums. The longer the post the fewer will read it. I didn't bother to try!
G

General rule about forums. The longer the post the fewer will read it. I didn't bother to try!

I find Yeshua's Posts, as well as Shamah's very biblically accurate and very informative. In this Evil time it would be wise to do the study before condemning it. The Bible is also a very long post. But those interested in it's contents will make the time to study it.

The fact that he went to such efforts to show what he has leaned to his brothers is proof positive his heart is in the right place. and even if nobody wants to read it, I'm sure it strengthened him. I know it did me.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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yup

thereby contradicting your personal, private definition of the scriptural term "works of the Law"
In what way?


Can you explain how "thou shall love your neighbor as thyself" is a "Work of the Law" commanded by Moses for the justification of sins?