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If you look back to the OT and see something that you must 'keep' or work at or 'observe' in your own understanding and strength then the vail is still over your mind. I am not sure I understand this point properly. The old testament tells us to love our enemies. If I did not have access to the new testament yet had heard about Jesus and believed. Would I not still find this instruction something that in Christ I would obey?
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
What about love for God in the Old testament is that simply some spiritual meaning that we should not actually love God with all our heart?
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
What about faith should I accept that I shall live by faith from the Old Testament?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
I put these to hopefully make my point that just because it is in the old testament does not mean it is not literal and does not mean that we should not obey it exactly as it states.
Now don't get me wrong, we must exercise discernment to know that which is spiritual and that which is carnal. The bible will tell us which is which. but hopefully this demonstrates my point.
We can't take this vail off by reasoning with each other. We will constantly be at odds over what the scripture says and what it means. The vail only comes off when a person comes to Christ and receives the gift of Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. While this is true the problem here is we both accept Christ as our salvation. I know you think I have not. But When it comes to being saved there is only one avenue and that is in the finished works of Jesus Christ on the Cross paying for my sin.
It does look like we agree on many things.
But what the vail is and what it causes we seem to diverge.
The OT tells us to do many things. Our carnal mind thinks we are supposed to fulfill them. To work at them.
But this is not how the NT works. In the NT we are given these things as gifts. We are given righteousness as a gift. This righteousness includes loving God and loving our neighbor. You can't be righteous before God without that, right? Love being the first fruit of the Spirit listed....
This is the vail that is over the mind when the OT is read. This is the vail that is removed when a person comes to Christ. It is the difference between working at commandments, which is the carnal way (making it a carnal commandment) and being given the fulfillment of these commandments as a gift through the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
[FONT="]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.[/FONT]
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
What about love for God in the Old testament is that simply some spiritual meaning that we should not actually love God with all our heart?
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
What about faith should I accept that I shall live by faith from the Old Testament?
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
I put these to hopefully make my point that just because it is in the old testament does not mean it is not literal and does not mean that we should not obey it exactly as it states.
Now don't get me wrong, we must exercise discernment to know that which is spiritual and that which is carnal. The bible will tell us which is which. but hopefully this demonstrates my point.
We can't take this vail off by reasoning with each other. We will constantly be at odds over what the scripture says and what it means. The vail only comes off when a person comes to Christ and receives the gift of Wisdom and Revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. While this is true the problem here is we both accept Christ as our salvation. I know you think I have not. But When it comes to being saved there is only one avenue and that is in the finished works of Jesus Christ on the Cross paying for my sin.
It does look like we agree on many things.
But what the vail is and what it causes we seem to diverge.
The OT tells us to do many things. Our carnal mind thinks we are supposed to fulfill them. To work at them.
But this is not how the NT works. In the NT we are given these things as gifts. We are given righteousness as a gift. This righteousness includes loving God and loving our neighbor. You can't be righteous before God without that, right? Love being the first fruit of the Spirit listed....
This is the vail that is over the mind when the OT is read. This is the vail that is removed when a person comes to Christ. It is the difference between working at commandments, which is the carnal way (making it a carnal commandment) and being given the fulfillment of these commandments as a gift through the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
[FONT="]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.[/FONT]
I like the passage quoted above which is in line with what you have been saying above. The law brought only guilt and condemnation. Which is what it was designed for to wake them up and us up to our condition and our need for a deliverer. Of course thus it was given to lead us the Christ who is the deliverer. Once we find the deliverer/Christ we are no longer in need of the law as it has served its purpose to show us sin and our need of saving and led us to the one who can save us from sin, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Its obvious we don't agree on some things but what you have written above I agree with.
Its obvious we don't agree on some things but what you have written above I agree with.
Dear CC members please hear me in the way I share, in love.
Many here say I am under the law. Have you forgotten that anyone who is putting to death the things of the flesh is of Messiah? I am not saying that you are not going to be saved. I don't want you to come to that conclusion. I want you to be certain of the hope we all hope for, life. I know you are aware Father doesn't want anyone to perish but to choose life. Be sure in themselves of the redemption to come as Paul put it.
Now a few things.
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Here we find by Paul that we follow the newness of the Spirit without being under the law of Moses, "to not trust in the Holy One Messiah". My fear is that you all would not understand that the faction of the circumcision that Paul preached against where trying to not loose their own way of life like we have built a house on sand so did they rejecting the cheer corner stone and being cut off from the house of Father.
I fear you too may be cut off of that faithful tree. Anyone could be even me if I loose the faith. Here is what I am saying. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is Good to bring about my Death, so that through the commandment SIN might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Being I have died with Messiah together we too have been raised and by the Spirit of the Law and Good commandment of Father I am perfected in my inner man. The more I am made aware of the Spirit of the law the more sin is condemned and the more I in my inner man am assured by Heavenly Peace which I also have mind to share with you.
Keep the law. Do not deny Messiah's testimony. His purpose is to make a house of people who worship Father in truth. Truth is the Word. As long as we remember that He is the Word and the truth of the mystery of Gods Salvation you too will have life and rest for your souls. As long as you fight Messiah by not entering into the Sabbath day you are promissed already through the word to never have rest or true peace.
Remember that the evil one changed the day, times, and seasons. Who is under a curse? Them who call the acurse thing the law, instead of sin.
In love, in hope of your repentance to worship the God of Messiah together in truth and spirit.
Many here say I am under the law. Have you forgotten that anyone who is putting to death the things of the flesh is of Messiah? I am not saying that you are not going to be saved. I don't want you to come to that conclusion. I want you to be certain of the hope we all hope for, life. I know you are aware Father doesn't want anyone to perish but to choose life. Be sure in themselves of the redemption to come as Paul put it.
Now a few things.
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Here we find by Paul that we follow the newness of the Spirit without being under the law of Moses, "to not trust in the Holy One Messiah". My fear is that you all would not understand that the faction of the circumcision that Paul preached against where trying to not loose their own way of life like we have built a house on sand so did they rejecting the cheer corner stone and being cut off from the house of Father.
I fear you too may be cut off of that faithful tree. Anyone could be even me if I loose the faith. Here is what I am saying. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is Good to bring about my Death, so that through the commandment SIN might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Being I have died with Messiah together we too have been raised and by the Spirit of the Law and Good commandment of Father I am perfected in my inner man. The more I am made aware of the Spirit of the law the more sin is condemned and the more I in my inner man am assured by Heavenly Peace which I also have mind to share with you.
Keep the law. Do not deny Messiah's testimony. His purpose is to make a house of people who worship Father in truth. Truth is the Word. As long as we remember that He is the Word and the truth of the mystery of Gods Salvation you too will have life and rest for your souls. As long as you fight Messiah by not entering into the Sabbath day you are promissed already through the word to never have rest or true peace.
Remember that the evil one changed the day, times, and seasons. Who is under a curse? Them who call the acurse thing the law, instead of sin.
In love, in hope of your repentance to worship the God of Messiah together in truth and spirit.
Ok. Good. So you know what the vail is. I wasn't 100% sure. And I apologize for doubting...
Now Rest...
Matthew 11:28 [FONT="]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/FONT]Before we come to Christ we are under the heavy yoke of labor and work at the law.
The Lord summarizes what is required by the law in Matthew 5:48 [FONT="]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[/FONT]So when you look back to the OT to do what is contained in it that is the requirement. Be perfect at it Like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.
Eventually you should get really tired of trying to be Perfect Like God. Eventually you should be sad that you can't do it.
When you are given Rest by coming to Christ by faith it shouldn't cause you to go back to the work of the law and your own understanding. It should cause the vail to come off your mind when the work of the OT is required. It should cause you to remember what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for you and what you had no hope in doing yourself.
There are warnings about going back to your own work and understanding of the law. You are under Grace and not under law. But if you start working at the law again you are not under Grace you have placed yourself back under law. You don't get a little grace mixed with a little law. You get one or the other. We live by faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ or we live by faith in our own work of the law.
Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT="]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
When you work at your own understanding of what the law says you have exchanged the Lords Grace for your own work. You have exchanged your own work for the Work of the Lord. A very grave error.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
The law is not of faith. Faith is about Rest in the Lord. [/FONT]
Now Rest...
Matthew 11:28 [FONT="]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/FONT]Before we come to Christ we are under the heavy yoke of labor and work at the law.
The Lord summarizes what is required by the law in Matthew 5:48 [FONT="]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[/FONT]So when you look back to the OT to do what is contained in it that is the requirement. Be perfect at it Like your Father in Heaven is Perfect.
Eventually you should get really tired of trying to be Perfect Like God. Eventually you should be sad that you can't do it.
When you are given Rest by coming to Christ by faith it shouldn't cause you to go back to the work of the law and your own understanding. It should cause the vail to come off your mind when the work of the OT is required. It should cause you to remember what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for you and what you had no hope in doing yourself.
There are warnings about going back to your own work and understanding of the law. You are under Grace and not under law. But if you start working at the law again you are not under Grace you have placed yourself back under law. You don't get a little grace mixed with a little law. You get one or the other. We live by faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ or we live by faith in our own work of the law.
Galatians 3:10-12
[FONT="]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
When you work at your own understanding of what the law says you have exchanged the Lords Grace for your own work. You have exchanged your own work for the Work of the Lord. A very grave error.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
The law is not of faith. Faith is about Rest in the Lord. [/FONT]
Amen, I would agree
The question is a rest from what? Doing anything? I would offer a rest so that we can "do the work" of getting out the gospel out, the true fast and why the disciples could not exercise the demons from a person .Its the kind of work that only comes out because of the gospel
This can be seen by Christ gathering corn.
Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands
Corn is used in many parables to represent the word of God, the gospel of our salvation. Eating corn is the kind of food necessary to do the will of God, as the meat of it.
But he said unto them, “I have meat to eat” that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:32
The word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word its mean rest. Whenever we do not harden our hearts in unbelief we have entered that rest.
The question is a rest from what? Doing anything? I would offer a rest so that we can "do the work" of getting out the gospel out, the true fast and why the disciples could not exercise the demons from a person .Its the kind of work that only comes out because of the gospel
This can be seen by Christ gathering corn.
Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands
Corn is used in many parables to represent the word of God, the gospel of our salvation. Eating corn is the kind of food necessary to do the will of God, as the meat of it.
But he said unto them, “I have meat to eat” that ye know not of.Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Joh 4:32
The word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word its mean rest. Whenever we do not harden our hearts in unbelief we have entered that rest.
Sabbath rest and Sabbath day are two different things then? No you can't enter The day without Messiah or Messiah without entering the day to keep it Holy. It is through the work of Messiah we can now truly enter into it, the day and perpetual rest. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can keep any day as Sabbath. You can enter into the rest of the Lord of the Sabbath any day. Entering into this rest should lead the faithful to remember and guard the Sabbath day and rest as Father did so we may have rest.
You think I judge you for not getting this truth! I don't judge The Judge will judge you for not believing Him. Because you don't trust Messiah you don't enter in. That's a shame because in it there is Grace, peace, hope, love, and much more.
You think I judge you for not getting this truth! I don't judge The Judge will judge you for not believing Him. Because you don't trust Messiah you don't enter in. That's a shame because in it there is Grace, peace, hope, love, and much more.
Very true - God mentions a specific DAY of the week and calls it HIS REST/HIS DAY. Does God just want to keep it all to Himself ? No...'it was made for man to share in it ! We are to treat it as 'holy time....so WE can learn to become holy - not just by resting but by being instructed by Him...hence the 'holy convocations ( for those who are older and have left the resting/slumbering Baby-stage.
Very much like we experience in this life not resting all the time, but learning to walk and work the good works of God. Christianity seems to have stopped at the cross....but Jesus is not dead....He is alive and still working for us and in us to 'conform us to HIS image...we need to respond in whatever He commands us actively. If we are 'hearers only we deceive ourselves !
Very much like we experience in this life not resting all the time, but learning to walk and work the good works of God. Christianity seems to have stopped at the cross....but Jesus is not dead....He is alive and still working for us and in us to 'conform us to HIS image...we need to respond in whatever He commands us actively. If we are 'hearers only we deceive ourselves !
Funny you mention that He is alive. Yes and yes even though I know what I know now I came from a time in my walk where I witnessed in myself a view of Messiah as still suffering for our sake. What a long way he has walked with me. Praise Yahshua Messiah.
What I mean to mention is what the Holy Spirit does with us. He is a life giving spirit at least as to show us the way to go. People today confess with their lips that Messiah is Lord but their hearts are led down the broad path by teachings of men over Fathers righteous judgment. Yes He desires Mercy rather than sacrifice. What does that mean in scripture not to some theological jargon or even to us. To humble yourself is to be willing to put aside yourself and put on someone else. The scriptures that come to mind are saying obedience is desired more than sacrifice and mercy to blood offering. There are warnings to going back to the work of "churchyness". Traditions of men. Even though we have no good works to show our children from our father's traditions, we have something still protected from the adversary for Milena. We have the Righteous instructions for how one should live by and have life. We have even the very laws that Heaven are guided by and the throne of the Father stands forever because God is eternal and YHWH has said he will always sustain His Word. So continue to trust in Messiah and also be doers of the Sabbath. Remember that the law is spiritual and the commandment is Good. Having the power to even make you Holy. Though a righteous person may fall seventy times if he gets back up he is righteous because it is written. Be a tester and do. See the word is good. Test Messiah in this not in disobedience. May you pursue peace so that truth will overcome everything.
Shalom in Yeshua Messiah John Talmid.
What I mean to mention is what the Holy Spirit does with us. He is a life giving spirit at least as to show us the way to go. People today confess with their lips that Messiah is Lord but their hearts are led down the broad path by teachings of men over Fathers righteous judgment. Yes He desires Mercy rather than sacrifice. What does that mean in scripture not to some theological jargon or even to us. To humble yourself is to be willing to put aside yourself and put on someone else. The scriptures that come to mind are saying obedience is desired more than sacrifice and mercy to blood offering. There are warnings to going back to the work of "churchyness". Traditions of men. Even though we have no good works to show our children from our father's traditions, we have something still protected from the adversary for Milena. We have the Righteous instructions for how one should live by and have life. We have even the very laws that Heaven are guided by and the throne of the Father stands forever because God is eternal and YHWH has said he will always sustain His Word. So continue to trust in Messiah and also be doers of the Sabbath. Remember that the law is spiritual and the commandment is Good. Having the power to even make you Holy. Though a righteous person may fall seventy times if he gets back up he is righteous because it is written. Be a tester and do. See the word is good. Test Messiah in this not in disobedience. May you pursue peace so that truth will overcome everything.
Shalom in Yeshua Messiah John Talmid.
Isaiah 57:14 He will say, “Cast up, cast up, prepare the way, take up the stumbling-block out of the way of my people.”
Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.
Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also who is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite.
Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Oh, they are just a shadow of things to come.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
You mean its a gift and not something that I "keep" or "work" at??
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Oh look. There it is again. Seems to be an ongoing theme. I wonder what else is the gift of God and not of works???
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Oh, they are just a shadow of things to come.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
You mean its a gift and not something that I "keep" or "work" at??
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Oh look. There it is again. Seems to be an ongoing theme. I wonder what else is the gift of God and not of works???
Thanx for your reply, to keep things easy to follow I will not address this whole post, there are things I agree with and things I don't But I will try to focus on one thing at a time for the sake of clarity and ease to follow and discuss.
The part I will address is this:
"Ok. Good. So you know what the vail is. I wasn't 100% sure. And I apologize for doubting..no problems by the way, by communicating as we are we will be batter able to understand each other.
Now Rest..IHere you assume I am not resting but lets address what comes next.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Before we come to Christ we are under the heavy yoke of labor and work at the law."
Here you quote Matthew 11:28 but it is what you say next based on that quote that I am not sure about. Before I came to Christ I did not care about the law or know it. I most defiantly did not work at it. Thus it stands to reason that either this verse did not apply to me or the rest Jesus is offering is broader or something other than rest form the law.
You attach the word Yoke here to the law but the reality is that Jesus does not mention a yoke here except for the one He gives which is easy:
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
It would seem that the problem here is that they labour and are burdened without a yoke. The imagery of a yoke in this context seems to be one of help and not having it makes the work hard. Jesus is using imagery form everyday life.
The yoke in scripture is used in many ways. some good some bad etc. So context must tell us which and here the Yoke is a good thing from Jesus.
So here the yoke which bound two together made the work easier for the animal just like in farming. This would seem to be the imagery used by Jesus here as apposed to alone where the work is hard and the lines are not straight. So Jesus likens his rest to help and ease of the yoke. Its also true that a yoke can be adjusted so that the stronger animal can take the burden of the load for the weaker animal.
Either way the yoke here is referring to Jesus's yoke which contextually would refer to his teachings on repentance.
We note that before this came this:
Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Jesus is speaking of how He had done great things and they did not Repent. Repent has to do with turning away from sin and doing right. Just before this Jesus was talking about John:
Mat 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
John preached Repentance of turning from sin to do what is right:
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luk 3:10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
Luk 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
So we see that the context of the text in question is not simply about working at the law. No the rest Jesus is offering is a rest from sin which only happens when we repent at the word of God. In fact this was just after Jesus gave instruction to the twelve:
Here is the message they preached by the authority of Jesus:
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
John Jesus and the disciples all had the same message. This is in line with the whole chapter we are looking at.
Now note that Jesus does use old testament imagery here:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
After saying that they would not repent he says this which comes from here:
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Jesus gave them instructions for life. Part of those instructions was to turn away from sin and turn to God/Repent. But they did not Repent. If they had they would have had the yoke of Jesus and found rest, rest from sin and death. Jesus did not come to free them from law but sin which the law reveals. as it is written:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Sin is breaking the law as the law gives us a knowledge of sin. Jesus came to free us from sin. This gives rest even to those who do not try to work at the law.
So when you say:
Before we come to Christ we are under the heavy yoke of labor and work at the law.
Where is the scripture for that? clearly this is not the context of what Jesus said here. I can see however that it is also rest for those who do know the law and are trying to be saved by it. This would match the joke of Jesus teachings as apposed to the Jewish yoke of laws that were also traditions on top.
I can accept that this would also fall under what Jesus has said. Ill leave it there that is a lot. But the focus is on the meaning of that verse. no matter how you look at it the issue is sin here.
The part I will address is this:
"Ok. Good. So you know what the vail is. I wasn't 100% sure. And I apologize for doubting..no problems by the way, by communicating as we are we will be batter able to understand each other.
Now Rest..IHere you assume I am not resting but lets address what comes next.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Before we come to Christ we are under the heavy yoke of labor and work at the law."
Here you quote Matthew 11:28 but it is what you say next based on that quote that I am not sure about. Before I came to Christ I did not care about the law or know it. I most defiantly did not work at it. Thus it stands to reason that either this verse did not apply to me or the rest Jesus is offering is broader or something other than rest form the law.
You attach the word Yoke here to the law but the reality is that Jesus does not mention a yoke here except for the one He gives which is easy:
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
It would seem that the problem here is that they labour and are burdened without a yoke. The imagery of a yoke in this context seems to be one of help and not having it makes the work hard. Jesus is using imagery form everyday life.
The yoke in scripture is used in many ways. some good some bad etc. So context must tell us which and here the Yoke is a good thing from Jesus.
So here the yoke which bound two together made the work easier for the animal just like in farming. This would seem to be the imagery used by Jesus here as apposed to alone where the work is hard and the lines are not straight. So Jesus likens his rest to help and ease of the yoke. Its also true that a yoke can be adjusted so that the stronger animal can take the burden of the load for the weaker animal.
Either way the yoke here is referring to Jesus's yoke which contextually would refer to his teachings on repentance.
We note that before this came this:
Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Jesus is speaking of how He had done great things and they did not Repent. Repent has to do with turning away from sin and doing right. Just before this Jesus was talking about John:
Mat 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
John preached Repentance of turning from sin to do what is right:
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luk 3:10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
Luk 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
So we see that the context of the text in question is not simply about working at the law. No the rest Jesus is offering is a rest from sin which only happens when we repent at the word of God. In fact this was just after Jesus gave instruction to the twelve:
Here is the message they preached by the authority of Jesus:
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
John Jesus and the disciples all had the same message. This is in line with the whole chapter we are looking at.
Now note that Jesus does use old testament imagery here:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
After saying that they would not repent he says this which comes from here:
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Jesus gave them instructions for life. Part of those instructions was to turn away from sin and turn to God/Repent. But they did not Repent. If they had they would have had the yoke of Jesus and found rest, rest from sin and death. Jesus did not come to free them from law but sin which the law reveals. as it is written:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Sin is breaking the law as the law gives us a knowledge of sin. Jesus came to free us from sin. This gives rest even to those who do not try to work at the law.
So when you say:
Before we come to Christ we are under the heavy yoke of labor and work at the law.
Where is the scripture for that? clearly this is not the context of what Jesus said here. I can see however that it is also rest for those who do know the law and are trying to be saved by it. This would match the joke of Jesus teachings as apposed to the Jewish yoke of laws that were also traditions on top.
I can accept that this would also fall under what Jesus has said. Ill leave it there that is a lot. But the focus is on the meaning of that verse. no matter how you look at it the issue is sin here.
I knew our problems in understanding/communicating would show up soon enough.
I thought they would be in the vail that is over the minds but strangely enough it is in the Rest that we have in Christ.
I really don't understand how you can have one without the other. How do you have the vail removed but no rest? It doesn't really make any sense to me at the moment.
Acts 15:5-10
[FONT="]5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
What is the yoke that neither we nor our fathers could bear? The yoke of the law. It obviously wasn't the yoke of circumcision, right?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
What is this yoke of bondage? Once again the same yoke as in Acts 15. The yoke of the law.
And so what is Rest then? It is rest from this yoke of our work at the law.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
The book of Galatians alone should show beyond a shadow of a doubt that working at the law does not mix with True Christianity.[/FONT]
I thought they would be in the vail that is over the minds but strangely enough it is in the Rest that we have in Christ.
I really don't understand how you can have one without the other. How do you have the vail removed but no rest? It doesn't really make any sense to me at the moment.
Acts 15:5-10
[FONT="]5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
What is the yoke that neither we nor our fathers could bear? The yoke of the law. It obviously wasn't the yoke of circumcision, right?
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
What is this yoke of bondage? Once again the same yoke as in Acts 15. The yoke of the law.
And so what is Rest then? It is rest from this yoke of our work at the law.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
The book of Galatians alone should show beyond a shadow of a doubt that working at the law does not mix with True Christianity.[/FONT]
Just to be clear my issue was with Matthew 11:28 while it uses the word yoke it is clearly in a different context to the other verses above. That was all I was saying. Jesus used it in a positive sense.
You said:
"What is the yoke that neither we nor our fathers could bear? The yoke of the law. It obviously wasn't the yoke of circumcision, right? I would not say yes to this let me explain why."
Its not the law that is the yoke, its the law for salvation that is the yoke. small change in wording big difference in conclusions.
It is in this same context that the book of Galatians is written. The issue in Galatians is one of salvation by works vs salvation by faith.
So I can agree that for many Jews it was rest form sin and their working at the law. But not all of us have worked at the law. But we all need to be freed from sin.
This however does not mean that Paul was saying that the law which showed sin does not matter. No He was simply saying we are not saved by trying to keep it. Rather by faith we are changed into it.
He made it clear here:
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Notice that this liberty outside of the yoke does not leave us to the flesh which broke the law. Rather it is fullfilled and love thy neighbour is clear according to Paul:
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Now love keeps by the new nature received by faith in Jesus the law thou shalt not kill. It does not just keep the whole spiritual application but it actually does not kill also. You can not spiritually keep it and physically not. But you can physically keep it and spiritually not. hope that makes sense.
The two are indispensable.
James shows the same thing as Paul when he says:
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
notice that if we fulfil it, (the royal law according to scripture/old testament) you do well. it is good but we know its fulfiled by the Spirit in us.
Then he says "But" so you do well if you fulfil it but if you break it then you are guilty of all and become a transgressor of the law. (This is what Paul was saying when he said above do net let your liberty occasion the flesh which of course breaks the law)
James concludes that we should speak and do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty which he just quoted in the same way as Paul.
Let me put it this way. In the flesh it is impossible to walk in the law because the flesh is sinful and can do no other. Thus working at the law is a wast of time.
But when faith in Jesus and his sacrifice and more than this his life in you. We are changed no longer slaves to sin we no longer serve sin and thus the law if fulfilled in us by His Spirit that gave him life. the law we could not keep we now do by nature shewing the work of the law written on our hearts. as Paul said.
You said:
"What is the yoke that neither we nor our fathers could bear? The yoke of the law. It obviously wasn't the yoke of circumcision, right? I would not say yes to this let me explain why."
Its not the law that is the yoke, its the law for salvation that is the yoke. small change in wording big difference in conclusions.
It is in this same context that the book of Galatians is written. The issue in Galatians is one of salvation by works vs salvation by faith.
So I can agree that for many Jews it was rest form sin and their working at the law. But not all of us have worked at the law. But we all need to be freed from sin.
This however does not mean that Paul was saying that the law which showed sin does not matter. No He was simply saying we are not saved by trying to keep it. Rather by faith we are changed into it.
He made it clear here:
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Notice that this liberty outside of the yoke does not leave us to the flesh which broke the law. Rather it is fullfilled and love thy neighbour is clear according to Paul:
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Now love keeps by the new nature received by faith in Jesus the law thou shalt not kill. It does not just keep the whole spiritual application but it actually does not kill also. You can not spiritually keep it and physically not. But you can physically keep it and spiritually not. hope that makes sense.
The two are indispensable.
James shows the same thing as Paul when he says:
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
notice that if we fulfil it, (the royal law according to scripture/old testament) you do well. it is good but we know its fulfiled by the Spirit in us.
Then he says "But" so you do well if you fulfil it but if you break it then you are guilty of all and become a transgressor of the law. (This is what Paul was saying when he said above do net let your liberty occasion the flesh which of course breaks the law)
James concludes that we should speak and do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty which he just quoted in the same way as Paul.
Let me put it this way. In the flesh it is impossible to walk in the law because the flesh is sinful and can do no other. Thus working at the law is a wast of time.
But when faith in Jesus and his sacrifice and more than this his life in you. We are changed no longer slaves to sin we no longer serve sin and thus the law if fulfilled in us by His Spirit that gave him life. the law we could not keep we now do by nature shewing the work of the law written on our hearts. as Paul said.
You are my brother, and I have done enough foolishness in the past and learned from it. I am being gracious because you are a child of God bought with His precious blood.
And its not one way, you have been patient and gracious towards me also. And no matter where this ends up you have my love and respect in Christ. I am learning from this also so thanx.
And its not one way, you have been patient and gracious towards me also. And no matter where this ends up you have my love and respect in Christ. I am learning from this also so thanx.
Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and rest in His completed work on the cross and resurrection and you will be "keeping the 4th commandment". It is not in the carnal keeping of a certain day. That was a "shadow" of the real thing which is Christ Himself.
As God rested from His work after creation - we too rest from our own works to rely on Christ's work alone for us in the New Covenant. Christ is our true Sabbath rest. All the law and the Old testament speak of Christ Himself. The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.
You're missing it. You have determined that you can work at the law as long as you aren't doing it for your salvation.
But that isn't it. And its because you don't understand the difference between a carnal commandment and a spiritual law. Although you should.
It is the law that is the heavy yoke. Because the requirement for following it is to be Perfect Like God is Perfect.
The requirement for doing some of it is to be under all of it.
Galatians 3:10 [FONT="]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[/FONT]Galatians 5:1-4
[FONT="]1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
If you are working at the law or an aspect of the law there must be a reason for it. You are attempting to be justified by it. Maybe not in a legal sense, such as a requirement for salvation. But you are definitely trying to be justified in the regular sense. You think that the Lord will look favorably upon you if you are keeping an aspect of the law that you think needs to be kept.
That is called a carnal commandment. Being able to look at the law and see something that you can fulfill by your own understanding and strength. You don't need the Lord to fulfill it. He just gave you a "boost" and now you can do it all by yourself.
A spiritual law you have no hope in fulfilling by yourself. You need the Lord every step of the way in order to fulfill even part of a spiritual law.
So your work and your understanding of the requirement for a spiritual law, and being Perfect Like your Father in Heaven is Perfect, is an exercise in futility. You have no hope of understanding, fully, and you have no hope in fulfilling, fully by your own strength. Because Gods Ways are Higher than our ways and His Thoughts are Higher than our thoughts.
That is precisely why we must come to Him as children. Because we really don't get it.
Its all written down for us in a really simple manner but we confuse the issues and complicate everything. Its because we need to be GIVEN wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We can't just study and take it by using our carnal understanding.
That appears to be the way God deals (operates?) with us. We must have faith in Him and He gives us His Gifts. And everything required for Salvation and to be pleasing to God is GIVEN as a gift. It can't be worked for by us because we can't do enough to deserve it.
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? [/FONT]
But that isn't it. And its because you don't understand the difference between a carnal commandment and a spiritual law. Although you should.
It is the law that is the heavy yoke. Because the requirement for following it is to be Perfect Like God is Perfect.
The requirement for doing some of it is to be under all of it.
Galatians 3:10 [FONT="]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[/FONT]Galatians 5:1-4
[FONT="]1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
If you are working at the law or an aspect of the law there must be a reason for it. You are attempting to be justified by it. Maybe not in a legal sense, such as a requirement for salvation. But you are definitely trying to be justified in the regular sense. You think that the Lord will look favorably upon you if you are keeping an aspect of the law that you think needs to be kept.
That is called a carnal commandment. Being able to look at the law and see something that you can fulfill by your own understanding and strength. You don't need the Lord to fulfill it. He just gave you a "boost" and now you can do it all by yourself.
A spiritual law you have no hope in fulfilling by yourself. You need the Lord every step of the way in order to fulfill even part of a spiritual law.
So your work and your understanding of the requirement for a spiritual law, and being Perfect Like your Father in Heaven is Perfect, is an exercise in futility. You have no hope of understanding, fully, and you have no hope in fulfilling, fully by your own strength. Because Gods Ways are Higher than our ways and His Thoughts are Higher than our thoughts.
That is precisely why we must come to Him as children. Because we really don't get it.
Its all written down for us in a really simple manner but we confuse the issues and complicate everything. Its because we need to be GIVEN wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We can't just study and take it by using our carnal understanding.
That appears to be the way God deals (operates?) with us. We must have faith in Him and He gives us His Gifts. And everything required for Salvation and to be pleasing to God is GIVEN as a gift. It can't be worked for by us because we can't do enough to deserve it.
Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? [/FONT]
Thankyou for your reply, This is harder to explain than I though it would be lol. Not to say that my view is not simple but rather the part that clashes or seems to clash with your view.
I will try for my own sake of working things out and for yours to understand my position better. When I read what you have said above I agree with much, there are just little parts or conclusions that I disagree with.
This is where I see us clashing but if I am honest I don't fully grasp your view yet. I don't see how you put it together yet.
So I will explain how I see it.
I was dead in trespasses and sins before I saw Christ. I did not work at the law because I did not know the law or see it as relevant in my life. When the law became relevant in my life I felt more sinful than when it was not. I saw the law and how good it was but my life was anything but good, and the law bore testimony of that fact. I did in the past attempt to keep it as it was good, but I failed in many ways. Then I found the gift of Jesus forgiveness and a peace covered me for a time. The problem was after a time is that forgiveness was not enough for me. In fact I don't think it is for anyone. My problem was not that I have sinned in the past, but rather that I continued to sin, a slave to sin.
I realised that forgiveness was important, but there was no full deliverance in forgiveness but rather a first step to deliverance. I needed a saviour that could save me from sinning, So I began to search more into the life and mission of Jesus. Both from the shadows in the old testament and the realities in the New testament. There I found a saviour who did more than just forgive but as you said gave me gifts, A new life in the Spirit. A new heart that partook of the divine nature. Christ in me the hope of Glory. My life changed more and more as time went by. The things I could not do I now could do in fact they naturally took place. Even the Sabbath became a natural inclination in my heart. I went form keeping it because it was sin not to to keeping it because I could not help myself. The same with the other commandments.
Yes they became much deeper and broader than a simple reading of the law. Jesus was changing everything in me. I was and still am becoming a new creature in Christ. The Old is past away. Now that same law which once showed my sin now is a witness to the saving power of Christ. For once I walked in the flesh and the law condemned me, But now that I am no longer under the law Christ has made me new and the law bears witness of the fact.
See its rather simple for me, Once I was a theif/sinner and Christ forgave me and changed me so that now I no longer steal and all that entails. I did not stop because that law said so, I stopped because Christ kept his promise to save me from sin. I am not working at the law thou shalt not kill, I have been transformed by the Grace of Jesus. The reason I can use the law to prove that someone is not free in Christ yet is because a person who has been freed from sin no longer walks in sin and the flesh.
I don't know if that helps or not. I hope it does.
I will try for my own sake of working things out and for yours to understand my position better. When I read what you have said above I agree with much, there are just little parts or conclusions that I disagree with.
This is where I see us clashing but if I am honest I don't fully grasp your view yet. I don't see how you put it together yet.
So I will explain how I see it.
I was dead in trespasses and sins before I saw Christ. I did not work at the law because I did not know the law or see it as relevant in my life. When the law became relevant in my life I felt more sinful than when it was not. I saw the law and how good it was but my life was anything but good, and the law bore testimony of that fact. I did in the past attempt to keep it as it was good, but I failed in many ways. Then I found the gift of Jesus forgiveness and a peace covered me for a time. The problem was after a time is that forgiveness was not enough for me. In fact I don't think it is for anyone. My problem was not that I have sinned in the past, but rather that I continued to sin, a slave to sin.
I realised that forgiveness was important, but there was no full deliverance in forgiveness but rather a first step to deliverance. I needed a saviour that could save me from sinning, So I began to search more into the life and mission of Jesus. Both from the shadows in the old testament and the realities in the New testament. There I found a saviour who did more than just forgive but as you said gave me gifts, A new life in the Spirit. A new heart that partook of the divine nature. Christ in me the hope of Glory. My life changed more and more as time went by. The things I could not do I now could do in fact they naturally took place. Even the Sabbath became a natural inclination in my heart. I went form keeping it because it was sin not to to keeping it because I could not help myself. The same with the other commandments.
Yes they became much deeper and broader than a simple reading of the law. Jesus was changing everything in me. I was and still am becoming a new creature in Christ. The Old is past away. Now that same law which once showed my sin now is a witness to the saving power of Christ. For once I walked in the flesh and the law condemned me, But now that I am no longer under the law Christ has made me new and the law bears witness of the fact.
See its rather simple for me, Once I was a theif/sinner and Christ forgave me and changed me so that now I no longer steal and all that entails. I did not stop because that law said so, I stopped because Christ kept his promise to save me from sin. I am not working at the law thou shalt not kill, I have been transformed by the Grace of Jesus. The reason I can use the law to prove that someone is not free in Christ yet is because a person who has been freed from sin no longer walks in sin and the flesh.
I don't know if that helps or not. I hope it does.
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