Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,232
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A-F,

Rev 19:11-21, It is the sea beast, the earth beast, the woman (ch 17), the dragon with 7 heads/10 horns, the scarlet beast, the iron legs/toes, the 4th beast.

All Rome, all one, all together, one entity, one group, one mind, one nation, one city, one god, Caesar.
No, it was the earth beast with the false prophet, see Rev 13. There was a false prophet in 70 AD who led 6,000 people on top of the temple for salvation but instead, they were all killed, every last one of them.

All of them, the false prophet is Caesar/BoR.


No, Caesar claimed to be God, not a prophet of God.

All of them.
Really?

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence...

Do you see an "s" after the word "beast?" I see one beast "captured" and that beast was apostate Israel.

476 ad, the fall of the Roman Empire beast.
Nope 70 AD Israel. They had the false prophet, they were the sea beast.

All the beasts are the same entity, Rome.


Nope. SEA = ROME, EARTH = ISRAEL learn your symbolism please.


All the beasts have the same spirit, Satan.
Agreed, both were wicked.

All the beasts have the same goal, kill Israel and the gospel kingdom.
Not Israel, the gospel, sure. But that isn't what is being shown or taught here.

They are all the same entity. The Roman beast gets his power from Satan. The Roman beast has a leader, that is Caesar/BoR.


Again, Nope!! They are NOT the same entity. But yes, the Roman beast got its power from Satan and so did the Apostate Jewish priests.

I like old Jo, I just can't accept it as "scriptural proof/truth".


Not saying he's scriptural but he does provide an historical account which perfectly matches the prophesy.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
48
Brother PW, Hi,

A-F,

No, it was the earth beast with the false prophet, see Rev 13. There was a false prophet in 70 AD who led 6,000 people on top of the temple for salvation but instead, they were all killed, every last one of them.


----

The earth beast is the false prophet.

----

There is a sea beast, Rome. It rises up from the sea of the gentiles.

The earth beast is religious Rome, Caesar worship. It rises up from the earth, the religious world.

Israel is symbolized as the earth many places, but the earth cannot be exclusively Israel.

Who was "the earth" before Jacob? Before Abraham? Before Noah? All were gentiles.

And there were others, Lk 4:26 The widow of Sidon, Lk 4:27 Naaman the Syrian.

So the earth cannot be exclusively Israel, but would represent a larger, group of religious entities.

In the case of the earth beast, those religious entities join with Rome.


No, Caesar claimed to be God, not a prophet of God.
It was Caesar who brought down the fire of judgment on everyone. Rise up against Caesar and he will bring judgment fire on you and your city. Fire is Judgment, among other things.


Really?

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence...

Do you see an "s" after the word "beast?" I see one beast "captured" and that beast was apostate Israel.
The beast is Rome, iron legs/toes, 4th beast, scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, woman Rv 17 (city), sea beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, earth beast, the false prophet, the little horn Dan. 7, the eighth head, and the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns.

All are Rome.

RV 19, When the Roman Empire fell in 476 ad, that was the end of the sea beast (with the exception of the present Vatican).

That was the end of Caesar and Caesar worship, until the image of Caesar and Caesar worship returned in the RCC.

In your understanding, the earth beast (Jerusalem), dies before the sea beast the Roman Empire, But in Rev 13, it shows that the sea beast is the one who dies and the earth beast makes the image.

So the earth beast continues, after the sea beast dies. So the earth beast cannot be Jerusalem.

Nope 70 AD Israel. They had the false prophet, they were the sea beast.
Jesus said that there would be many false prophets, just because they had a false prophet at the fall of 70 ad, doesn't mean that it is the earth beast prophet.



Nope. SEA = ROME, EARTH = ISRAEL learn your symbolism please.
The sea of the gentiles, is furthest away from the throne of God.

The earth rises up towards God in heaven. But is not exclusively Israel.

The trees are Israel, the grass is Israel, but not the earth, exclusively.


Agreed, both were wicked.
Not Israel, the gospel, sure. But that isn't what is being shown or taught here.
Rev 19 is the prophecy of the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 ad.

The dragon, 4th beast is out to destroy Israel. This is the victory of the fall of Rome.

But Wait! There is a remnant. There is a remnant? RV 19:21, who is the remnant?

If this shows 70 ad when Jerusalem falls, then the remnant points to a time that exists after 70 ad.

That is the reign of the little horn 8th head. The RCC.


Again, Nope!! They are NOT the same entity. But yes, the Roman beast got its power from Satan and so did the Apostate Jewish priests.
The scarlet beast of Rev 17 has 7 heads. Then there is an 8th head that is during the time of the 10 horns. But is one of the seven, Roman.

You are saying that the 8th head is not one of the seven Roman heads, when he is Roman, not an Israelite.


Not saying he's scriptural but he does provide an historical account which perfectly matches the prophesy.
Since he was aware of the OT prophecies, maybe he slanted it to match them?

Since you say that the Rev was written before 70 ad sometime, maybe he had read the letter that was sent to the seven churches. I'm sure that the congregations made copies and shared them.

Maybe some were intercepted, read, and forwarded to higher ups, reaching Titus.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
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The days of vengeance are the dest of Jerusalem and the 1900 years that followed. Commonly known as, the time of Jacob's trouble, the great trib, the times of the gentiles.


This already happened, they ended in 1967.
The great tribulation ended in the 1st century AD, not 1967:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

1900 years can hardly be described as shortening the days. More error in your interpretation AB baby.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
48
The great tribulation ended in the 1st century AD, not 1967:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

1900 years can hardly be described as shortening the days. More error in your interpretation AB baby.
Brother Locutus,

It says that the times will be shortened for the elect's sake.

It doesn't say the length of time that passes until it ends, just that it is shortened.

If it is the dest of Jerusalem, then there must be some elect in the city still.

Maybe you are saying that they were killed quickly for there own benefit?

Who is the flesh that is saved?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
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I see you are back to making no sense again and asking silly questions.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,206
37
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I see you are back to making no sense again and asking silly questions.

So in the year 2018 where do you see your self fitting in are you "the elect"? Are you the "all flesh" or was this all brought to a conclusion in ad70, and none of this pertains to you?
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
So in the year 2018 where do you see your self fitting in are you "the elect"? Are you the "all flesh" or was this all brought to a conclusion in ad70, and none of this pertains to you?
The "elect" were the 1st century saints in particular soandso:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter is writing to the scattered tribes as was James:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

So to answer your question in regards to me or you or any believer after that time would be anachronistic in applying the term elect.

"All" flesh is "all" flesh, when Jesus stated "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved" he is including the elect in "all" flesh. If the war had continued unabated then the elect would have been consumed as well.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,206
37
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The "elect" were the 1st century saints in particular soandso:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter is writing to the scattered tribes as was James:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

So to answer your question in regards to me or you or any believer after that time would be anachronistic in applying the term elect.

"All" flesh is "all" flesh, when Jesus stated "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved" he is including the elect in "all" flesh. If the war had continued unabated then the elect would have been consumed as well.

So you "don't consider" your own self nor any one to be numbered among the "Elect" after a certain point in time?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
So you "don't consider" your own self nor any one to be numbered among the "Elect" after a certain point in time?
Not in the sense that it had in the 1st century. It has to be remembered that these people lived in the time of covenant change which was accomplished during that time.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,206
37
48
Not in the sense that it had in the 1st century. It has to be remembered that these people lived in the time of covenant change which was accomplished during that time.
lol, That's what caught my eye was post #443-444 ,,,first quickly,soon,ect. couldn’t mean 1900+ years and then now you are the Elect(or one of them,1900+ years later)...

It's kind of an futuristic manner of thinking(down right mid Acts) about someone being "strangers" in Peter's letter in that if you were from Asia and were "scattered" then this would be incorrect. That is if you were from Israel and then were strangers then if you were "scattered" then it would make sense because then you were "strangers in the place you were scattered to"...just clarifying your exact position on this,lol
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,797
88
48
lol, That's what caught my eye was post #443-444 ,,,first quickly,soon,ect. couldn’t mean 1900+ years and then now you are the Elect(or one of them,1900+ years later)...

It's kind of an futuristic manner of thinking(down right mid Acts) about someone being "strangers" in Peter's letter in that if you were from Asia and were "scattered" then this would be incorrect. That is if you were from Israel and then were strangers then if you were "scattered" then it would make sense because then you were "strangers in the place you were scattered to"...just clarifying your exact position on this,lol
Not sure what you are saying here sosandso - "strangers" in the Greek is diaspora - a term for the tribes.

John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed (Greek - diaspora) among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

In regards to the great tribulation - Jesus stated the "elect" were to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded.

So if the great tribulation is 1900 years long according to AB baby how does the "flee" commanded work for 1900 years?

Do you see how Jesus' statements are only relevant for the generation that heard him?
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,591
59
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Not sure what you are saying here sosandso - "strangers" in the Greek is diaspora - a term for the tribes.

John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed (Greek - diaspora) among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

In regards to the great tribulation - Jesus stated the "elect" were to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded.


So if the great tribulation is 1900 years long according to AB baby how does the "flee" commanded work for 1900 years?
You have one verse, which you continue to misrepresent, that constricts your whole time line.

You must try to get everything to end by 70 ad., but there was a prophetic time AFTER 70ad, all prophecies ever written were not ended by 70ad..

I agree that the fleeing is 70 ad, but you are blind to the fact that there is a time after the fleeing. What happens to those who flee? How long do they flee? What happens when the fleeing time is over? Jerusalem is restored?

You have no clue as to anything after 70 ad because you have chosen to close your eyes.

Yes the time of trouble begins when Jerusalem is surrounded, but it doesn't end when Jerusalem falls, it is just the end, of the beginning.


Do you see how Jesus' statements are only relevant for the generation that heard him?
Quite a statement to make. Can you back it up fully?

You must be born again,........ only relevant to 70 ad? Not relevant now?

Worship in spirit and truth,.....70 ad only?

Ask me for living waters,....70 ad only?