Salvation is a Free Gift.

[Pilgrimshope]

That's the response of a changed heart.

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:

for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil.

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, ( see genesis six when he was grieved ) whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:

Do you see how accepting the doctrine is what changes the mind and believing is what changed the heart? Accepting the “ you e learned from Jesus so now act accordingly n these ways I’m telling you put these things on and put away the old corruption

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And?

If God is co-equal then how can one make another do something?
It must be by choice.
So if God does things by choice why do you think His salvation is different?

 

[Magenta]

The seal is given to the believer at salvation. But the work of salvation occurred previously and is being made known to the individual. In other words, the work the Spirit has done inwardly is made known outwardly.
Think about when you see a rainbow. It is a sign that God will not destroy the earth with water. But God decided not to do this before He gave the sign. Likewise, when someone experiences the baptism of the Spirit, it affirms to them an inward work has already transpired. The seal isn't a saving act. It merely authenticates that salvation has occurred.

The verse specifically says the seal is given at the time of belief. We are also told that without faith it is impossible to please God. Please pardon me belaboring this point... I am simply attempting to understand more fully my own process in coming to believe. You may know that I was involved in the 12 step program for many years before I came to believe also, and that puts God front and center. So while I practiced prayer and meditation and turning my will in my life over to God for 10 years beforehand, I really hadn't done it until 2004. God revealed Himself to me in a number of ways a # of times before I was able to fully believe.

 

[PaulThomson]

You don't have to preview when you have up to 5 minutes after posting to proofread and edit.

That's what I think too. But....

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus said this before his death and resurrection to an audience that had been given the old testament by God. At that time His sheep were those who had heard from God and learned from God, and these the Father was giving at that time to Jesus to shepherd on God's behalf. If someone believed God, they had been given to Jesus. So, it follows that any who did not believe God's testimony about Jesus were not given to Jesus and were not Jesus' sheep.

Hence, "You don't believe because you are not my sheep." If they had been Jesus' sheep, they would have been those who had believed God and been given to Jesus for doing so.

In the ot israel kept rejecting his call to repentance and obedience eventually he made them blind and deaf

“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; That they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, And be converted, And I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:37-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This wasn’t arbitrary they kept rejecting him again and again and so

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭

they were his chosen sheep but they rejected him

 

[cv5]

A dead person cannot make a choice and so they do not have free will - they are oblivious to choice

Absolutely FALSE. Adam and Eve made free will choices BEFORE the fall.......which LED to the fall. And also afterwards. For hundreds of years.

Imagine that. Two sinless perfect people who made bad choices. One was deceived, one NOT deceived. But bad sinful wrong choices nevertheless.

BTW....there is no doubt whatsoever that both Adam and Eve were saved. How pray tell?

FREE WILL CHOICE. They testified truthfully at their trial, confessed their sin, and pleaded mercy in the Name of the One to come.....the Redeemer.

Hyper-Calvinism is garbage grievous heresy.

 

[Cameron143]

The verse specifically says the seal is given at the time of belief. We are also told that without faith it is impossible to please God. Please pardon me belaboring this point... I am simply attempting to understand more fully my own process in coming to believe. You may know that I was involved in the 12 step program for many years before I came to believe also, and that puts God front and center. So while I practiced prayer and meditation and turning my will in my life over to God for 10 years beforehand, I really hadn't done it until 2004. God revealed Himself to me in a number of ways a # of times before I was able to fully believe.

No problem. I'm trying to explain what a seal is and does. A seal doesn't save. That's why it doesn't occur until one believes. But once one believes, it is given so that the believer has their faith confirmed to them.
When Peter went to the house of Cornelius, he saw the Holy Spirit descend upon the family. He responded by telling them to be baptized. Why? Because the falling of the Spirit was the confirmation to him that the word he preached had resulted in their believing...that salvation had taken place.

 

[rogerg]

Absolutely FALSE. Adam and Eve made free will choices BEFORE the fall.......which LED to the fall.

Yup, the "before the fall" is the key. From and because of the fall, all human beings spiritually died, including Adam and Eve, that is why the verses I included in my post to you said that God made them alive (quickened them). He wouldn't have had to do that were they not spiritually dead. Before the fall, they weren't spiritually dead, but after it they were.

Here is another reference to it in a different form:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

BTW....there is no doubt whatsoever that both Adam and Eve were saved. How pray tell?

How? The same way He saves everyone: He chose them to become saved.

Hyper-Calvinism is garbage grievous heresy.

Guess that means you don't believe or like that Christ is the Saviour, and that man is not.

 

[Cameron143]

The verse specifically says the seal is given at the time of belief. We are also told that without faith it is impossible to please God. Please pardon me belaboring this point... I am simply attempting to understand more fully my own process in coming to believe. You may know that I was involved in the 12 step program for many years before I came to believe also, and that puts God front and center. So while I practiced prayer and meditation and turning my will in my life over to God for 10 years beforehand, I really hadn't done it until 2004. God revealed Himself to me in a number of ways a # of times before I was able to fully believe.

I just realized your point. Just because it occurred simultaneously to salvation doesn't mean it must occur simultaneously to salvation in every case. In Acts Paul runs across some who were believers but who had not heard of the Holy Spirit. So he laid hands on them and they spoke in tongues. In other words, they experienced the baptism of the Spirit. But they had already believed. So belief isn't contingent upon a seal.
I believe there are many believers today who have not been sealed, or who even understand that this sealing is available.

As to your individual circumstance, I don't know one way or the other. I suspect your salvation was at the later date, and the earlier spiritual incursions were spiritual markers, but I'm not sure.

 

[rogerg]

If God is co-equal then how can one make another do something?
It must be by choice.
So if God does things by choice why do you think His salvation is different?

Because He is God and we're not?

 

[Eli1]

That came across as reluctance to accept that salvation was the "it" being referred to.

Maybe English, is not his first language.
I don't know, just guessing.

 

[Magenta]

Maybe English, is not his first language.
I don't know, just guessing.

My guess is that disagreements between the 2 posters has made one reluctant to accept anything the other says in good faith.

 

[Eli1]

My guess is that disagreements between the 2 posters has made one reluctant to accept anything the other says in good faith.

It's something that happens in real life too, nevermind online.
Sometimes at my job, people are unable to hear what you're saying and they want to hear what they're saying in their head.

That's when i tell them "Time for lunch, let's try again later"

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Because He is God and we're not?

God made Israel choose. God claims to be same when He made Israel choose like He is when we got saved. Why do you ignore what God has done and never changes but you think He changes on this?

You are claiming a God that changes when He says He never changes.

 

[Magenta]

I just realized your point. Just because it occurred simultaneously to salvation doesn't mean it must occur simultaneously to salvation in every case. In Acts Paul runs across some who were believers but who had not heard of the Holy Spirit. So he laid hands on them and they spoke in tongues. In other words, they experienced the baptism of the Spirit. But they had already believed. So belief isn't contingent upon a seal.
I believe there are many believers today who have not been sealed, or who even understand that this sealing is available.

As to your individual circumstance, I don't know one way or the other. I suspect your salvation was at the later date, and the earlier spiritual incursions were spiritual markers, but I'm not sure.

The point that I have been attempting to make is that the seal // which is our guarantee of being placed within the body of Christ // of being reconciled to God // of attaining to life ever after // happens upon belief and not beforehand... beforehand is when we were made alive... the question I am asking is : is being made alive the same as being born again // is having your heart circumcised the same as being born again // I suspect there is a distinction that many miss and as you know I have brought this up before ... how the heart circumcision is rarely discussed in these matters. But even the heart circumcision is so that we MAY love God... it is not a guarantee that we will.

 

[Magenta]

It's something that happens in real life too, nevermind online.
Sometimes at my job, people are unable to hear what you're saying and they want to hear what they're saying in their head.

That's when i tell them "Time for lunch, let's try again later"

My boss tried that approach... We're one big happy family let's just get along. No, sorry that doesn't deal with the issues. LOL

 

[Cameron143]

The point that I have been attempting to make is that the seal // which is our guarantee of being placed within the body of Christ // of being reconciled to God // of attaining to life ever after // happens upon belief and not beforehand... beforehand is when we were made alive... the question I am asking is : is being made alive the same as being born again // is having your heart circumcised the same as being born again // I suspect there is a distinction that many miss and as you know I have brought this up before ... how the heart circumcision is rarely discussed in these matters. But even the heart circumcision is so that we MAY love God... it is not a guarantee that we will.

I see. I think the circumcision of the heart is what is spoken of in Ezekiel 36:26 and is performed by the Holy Spirit as a part of the inner working of God in salvation. I personally attach it to salvation in time, so I believe it is being born from above.

 

[Eli1]

My boss tried that approach... We're one big happy family let's just get along. No, sorry that doesn't deal with the issues. LOL

That's very true but we have to try and then 'shake the dust off our shoes' as the Lord says after we've tried.

 

[Foghorn]

You guys keep dancing around but all who can read clearly see what YOU had to do in order to believe.

You had to accept the Gift of salvation, it was not forced on you and you were not made to accept it.

You guys keep dancing around our answers that we were not forced to believe. It’s pretty clear we don’t believe that. Salvation is not offered to anyone who decides they want to believe. If you insist it is, you have a whole Bible to look through to prove it. So, prove it.

 

[Foghorn]

Roger is saying he's a Robot.

Where in the Bible does it show us those saved are Robots?

Choose this day whom ye will serve...does not sound like a robot.

But Roger claims he is one!

No he isn’t saying any such thing. your putting words in his mouth.