SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[eternally-gratefull]

We are being saved through faith.
Your view would be more accurate if you stated that one is saved by faith/alone.

no, because it is by grace through faith not of myself (not of works), and it is not are being, it is have been saved.
so you would be in error.

I can't put the alone on it. We are not saved by faith alone. But we are saved by grace, it is all grace, what Christ did for mankind, which enables man to even be eligible to have a relationship with Christ. Our relationship is by grace through faith. Huge difference. That is where we differ.

no, thats not where we differ. I believe in grace through faith. You believe in grace through faith, but only through works. so do not sit here and deny it.

if you believed it was by unmerited favor (mercy and faith, then you would not be teaching we are not saved until we die, The when we are saved, we could lose salvation. You would admit that under ne merit on our part have we been saved. Thus under no merit of ourselves could we be unsaved.

The faith is always conditional. Our faith is always (present tense, active, continuing) it is NEVER past tense. If no works, means one has no faith. Thus will not inherit the promise that awaits those that endure to the end. Nothing complex about it. Scripture is quite clear on it.

And here you add works. And here is where you make salvation based on yourself and the work yuo do. And not on the work of Christ and your faith in his work based on the grace he has given you.

so again I ask, Why do you say one thing, when you believe another?

 

[Apostol2013]

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[Apostol2013]

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
the word says to be furnished in all good works

 

[Apostol2013]

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Elin]

warnings are quite irrelevant

Not when you understand that God works through means (second causes),
not directly (as a first cause), in bringing his sons to glory.

Faith comes through the means (second cause) of hearing, not by being dropped into you directly by God.
Renewal comes through the means (second cause) of warnings, not by being dropped into you directly.
Sanctification comes through the means (second cause) of obedience, not by being dropped into you directly. Etc., etc., etc.

You don't understand the economy of salvation.

And how does this actually speak about what I stated?

Examine it again. . .and maybe you will see its connection to the relevancy of warnings.

Where is all this nonsense about "second causes" come from?

From the same place "Trinity," or "sovereignty of God" or "relationship" comes from.

It's another word for "through means" as distinct from "directly," as explained above.

YOu making this stuff up as you go since you have nothing to support your view from scripture?

I'm sure it appears that way to your surface understanding of Scripture.

Scripture absolutely does speak of counterfeit faith. . .in Mt 7:21-23, as well as
Lk 8:13 and 1Jn 2:19,
just as it speaks of the "Trinity," or the "sovereignty of God," or "relationship,"
but your understanding is too shallow to see it.

And I understand quite well your self-serving rationale for denying counterfeit faith.

Where does scripture use the term, counterfeit believer? this text surely does not.

It comes from the same place as the phrase "sovereignty of God," or "Trinity," or "relationship."

Are you saying these are not found in Scripture?

True believers do not fall away, only counterfeit believers, as those
in Mt 7:21-23; Lk 8:13; 1Jn 2:19, because they had no salvation in the first place.
Their faith was counterfeit.

But your understanding is too shallow and self-servingly prejudiced against it to see that.

a believer is a believer. YOu can call him anythng you want but he was a believer.

Yep. . .a Buddhist is a believer. . .a Muslim is a believer,
but their faith is counterfeit because they believe in untruth.

A believer does not necessarily have true faith.
Buddhists and Muslims have faith, but it is counterfeit faith, nevertheless.

And those who fall away from their faith in Christianity also have counterfeit faith.
They fell away from their faith in Christianity during their time of trial because
they did not really trust and believe in God in that trial.
Had they trusted and believed in God, they would have persevered in their faith through the trial.

They are assigned with unbelievers because they are unbelievers. . .how did you miss that?

Counterfeit faith is not true faith (Mt 7:21-23), it is actually faith in untruth, which blinds.

So we are to believe that Christ assigns unbelievers with the unbelievers.

So who would you expect them to be assigned with?

In order for anyone to BECOME UNFAITHFUL, one must of necessity be faithful.

As those in Lk 8:13 or 1Jn 2:19 were faithful for a while, but did not persevere in their faith
because it was not true faith, it was counterfeit faith. It did not have a root (rebirth).

You're missing the most important fact about "unfaithful". . .it means without faith.

The unfaithful servant loses his faith, because it was not true faith in the first place.
True faith is never lost, that's how you know it is true.
Only counterfeit faith is lost, that's how you know it is counterfeit,
it did not trust and believe in God in the time of trial (Lk 8:13; 1Pe 1:7; Jas 1:3).

Works are necessary for salvation.

Paul emphatically states otherwise. . .that's your own notion.
You'll have to take it up with him.

You accept an authority outside Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state.

Therefore, you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Cassian]

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This and your next post will go right over their heads, or they will dumb is down, redefine it to fit the theory.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This and your next post will go right over their heads, or they will dumb is down, redefine it to fit the theory.

just further proves your lack of understanding of what anyone says.

I love his appearing, because I KNOW I will be resurrected by him, to eternal life.

If anything, this passage should scare you. You think you can;t be sure you will make it or not. You may think yuo love his appearing. But that should scare the crap out of since you are unknowing if you will be on the right side of his judgment when he appears. or on the wrong side.

 

[Zinzerio]

just further proves your lack of understanding of what anyone says.

I love his appearing, because I KNOW I will be resurrected by him, to eternal life.

If anything, this passage should scare you. You think you can;t be sure you will make it or not. You may think yuo love his appearing. But that should scare the crap out of since you are unknowing if you will be on the right side of his judgment when he appears. or on the wrong side.

[video=youtube;7wFt8KIpDIs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFt8KIpDIs[/video]

 

[SarahM777]

So did they lose salvation? Or did they prove they never had faith to begin with?

Have you ever tried to change something in your life. because you heard something which was supposed to be life changing, then found out that what you thought the change was did not actually help, it was not what you thought it was, so you went back to the old way, Because you (if your honest with yourself) never really believed that was not the correct way to begin with?

it has happened to me many times. And if I am honest with myself. I should never have tried the new thing to begin with, because I never really trusted it.

This is what paul is warning them about Check your faith, Is it in Christ, or is it in the law. If you leave and go back. You have fallen from what I have told you, And you are alienated from christ, If you doubt, Stick with it, Ask God to show his truth, but once you walk out that door. The chances of you ever coming back or slim to none. which is exactly what the author of hebrews was talking about. You fall away, You will not be able to be renewed to repentance, Because your faith was not completed. and you gave up the chance. You faith is to strong in the law,

If one has a false faith they have NO FAITH to begin with. How CAN AN UNBELIEVER FALL INTO UNBELIEF? An UNBELIEVER IS ALREADY in unbelief. That is in essence what you are saying is that AN UNBELIEVER IS FALLING INTO UNBELIEF. How does that make any sense that someone with NO belief falls into NO belief? Aren't they ALREADY IN unbelief to begin with?

 

[Stephen63]

I understand your position to a point. You believe that one is finitely, written in stone, have irrevocable salvation upon the minute one believes. Once that person says He accepts Christ, He is absolutely saved, past tense. Then you say that this salvation/faith produces the good works of being a servant, a follower, obeying Christ, etc, etc, Because one is SAVED, how can one fall away. Impossible. Consequently you hold to a theology that says saved by faith only. Works do not save, have nothing to do with salvation, they are just gravey for God but they have no relevance.

This is where it gets fuzzy for me in understanding your position. Since they are irrelevant they would be optional, but I have heard several proponents say that a believer cannot do no works. It is inherent of a believer that he can only do good works and does them. Again fuzzy, I assume that he also cannot do bad works because that is then inherently not being a believer. Thus if he cannot do bad works, then he does not sin. Sin is bad works, namely not doing something according to God's will, which cannot happen for a believer. Some have even gone so far to say that the Holy Spirit actually does the good works. But again fuzzy, who does the bad works, who does the sinning?

Where am I on understanding your position? Enlighten me where I went off the road.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10[/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Cassian]

Examine it again. . .and maybe you will see its connection to the relevancy of warnings.


From the same place "Trinity," or "sovereignty of God" or "relationship" comes from.

It's another word for "through means" as distinct from "directly," as explained above.


I'm sure it appears that way to your surface understanding of Scripture.


It comes from the same place as the phrase "sovereignty of God," or "Trinity," or "relationship."

Are you saying these are not found in Scripture?


Yep. . .a Buddhist is a believer. . .a Muslim is a believer,
but their faith is counterfeit because they believe in untruth.

A believer does not necessarily have true faith.
Buddhists and Muslims have faith, but it is counterfeit faith, nevertheless.

And those who fall away from their faith in Christianity also have counterfeit faith.
They fell away from their faith in Christianity during their time of trial because
they did not really trust and believe in God in that trial.
Had they trusted and believed in God, they would have persevered in their faith through the trial.


So who would you expect them to be assigned with?


As those in Lk 8:13 or 1Jn 2:19 were faithful for a while, but did not persevere in their faith
because it was not true faith, it was counterfeit faith. It did not have a root (rebirth).

You're missing the most important fact about "unfaithful". . .it means without faith.

The unfaithful servant loses his faith, because it was not true faith in the first place.
True faith is never lost, that's how you know it is true.
Only counterfeit faith is lost, that's how you know it is counterfeit,
it did not trust and believe in God in the time of trial (Lk 8:13; 1Pe 1:7; Jas 1:3).


You accept an authority outside Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state.

Therefore, you are wasting your time and ours here.

You rationalize scripture away so that your false notion stands. The ONLY believer you are describing are those that have died and received their reward. Scripture is not concerned with those because they have endured. Scripture is speaking of those who believe, repent, are baptised, enter into Christ. They are the definition of a bonefied believer in scripture. It is these believers that scripture is addressing, not those that have died and were faithful.

You still have not produced a text that states one is "saved by faith alone". You have found none that even state one is saved, and has inherited his salvation at entrance into Christ.

Lets take the most famous verse in all the Bible. John 3:15-16. In vs 15 uses the word "should" as does vs 16. That is a word that implies conditions to be met before it is possible to award the eternal life. It is a future determination. It does not say one has eternal life.

According to your view this text should read as follows:
whoever believes in Him has eternal life, because God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but definitely has eternal life."

John 3:36
Whoever

believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

here is one that has it promised in whoever believes (present tense, active, continuing) but then the second clause puts the negation into the promise. Whoever does not obey shall NOT see life. It matters not that one believes for a while, but if that faith/belief is not conditioned by obeying, one cannot inherit the promise.

Here is another..
John 1:12-13
12 But to all who did receive Him [Christ], who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God,[/quote] Here is one that states that upon belief and receiving Christ(baptism) one is not even a child of God. It gives one a right or authority to become a child of God. Living in obedience makes one a child of God, not the believing.

There are many more, but only one sinks any teaching opposed to the text. Using the sola scripturist mantra, scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[Cassian]

no, because it is by grace through faith not of myself (not of works), and it is not are being, it is have been saved.
so you would be in error.



no, thats not where we differ. I believe in grace through faith. You believe in grace through faith, but only through works. so do not sit here and deny it.

I'm not the one denying the text. Through faith is a conditional word. It does not say by faith, or faith alone. I might also add that the past tense here of being saved, is refering to vs 5 where it is referencing Christ saving all men from death and sin. That is the Gift of Salvation that of grace alone. Vs 8 Paul has transitioned to believers as the sub group, that the Gift, being saved, but also through faith. Our relationship with Christ is NOT by GRACE ONLY, but needs man's participation. If participation was not necessary then Christ would have saved all men unto eternal life with Him as well, since that is what He desires. You can look at it as two gifts. One all men get freely, but the second is conditional, we need to receive it and meet the obligations.

if you believed it was by unmerited favor (mercy and faith, then you would not be teaching we are not saved until we die, The when we are saved, we could lose salvation. You would admit that under ne merit on our part have we been saved. Thus under no merit of ourselves could we be unsaved.

where is the merit. It is an obligation of a contract/covenant. All covenants have conditions, none one that I know of is one-sided.

And here you add works. And here is where you make salvation based on yourself and the work yuo do. And not on the work of Christ and your faith in his work based on the grace he has given you.

we are required to participate with God but none of it is of myself. That is where you fail with scripture. When we sin, then we are trying to do it on our own. The work of Christ did not save your soul either. Any work, even if incorrect, has nothing to do with what Christ did on the Cross or his resurrection. Man has nothing to do with the work of Christ.
Do you know what Christ did for us by His Incarnation, death and resurrection? Also, think how could anyone add to this work?

so again I ask, Why do you say one thing, when you believe another?

I'm not saying another. I am saying exactly what scripture states.

You have stated several incorrect scriptural understandings. We are not saved by faith only. James 4:24 tells us that.
We are not saved, past tense, at the time of belief. Our personal, relational salvation is conditioned on our faith remaining present tense, active and continuing.

 

[dcontroversal]

You are the one that is in error as this is pure bible and of the truth...again you flap your lips with no scripture and my statement is based upon scripture

There is no contradiction here whatsoever at all in my second post and it is you who ignorantly believe that a man can loose his ETERNAL salvation...keep trusting your works for salvation and you had better drink as much cold water as you can get while you are alive because one day you will beg for one drop as works to keep or fro salvation leads straight to hell and then the lake of fire!

The first part of your statement is pure Gnosticism.


In the second part you have a contradiction to your view.
You stated that this

"THE SPIRIT THAT IS BORN OF GOD AND DOES NOT SIN AND CANNOT BE LOST IS HOUSED IN A BODY THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN CHANGED.....THEY CONSTANTLY BATTLE FOR CONTROL OF THE MAN PERIOD.
" Which is precisely the problem man has. Man's problem is that he still so easily succumbs to the flesh. If one permits the flesh to dominate, one is in danger of losing faith, thus salvation. It is why believers have the some 300+ warnings about losing faith, being unfaithful, or stated they have lost salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

strawman again.
I believe fully in the first.

Yeah right...except you add works to supplement your salvation and or to be saved.......and if you truly believed that you would not be arguing against the truth so as to spew you heretical doctrine of works and the ability to loose salvation!

 

[Stephen63]

The disagreement is....

a. Saved by the perfect faith of Christ based upon mercy and grace through faith

or

b. Saved by works and kept saved by works

Not entirely correct. You YOURSELF stated that a christian could have no works at all, have corrupt & evil works, & walk away from their relationship with Christ & STILL BE SAVED IN THE END. You keep sneaking in these damnable heresies & then say, "It's thru faith in Christ & nothing else".

Christians can "fall away" from the faith & be damned. It's by grace thru faith, true enuf, but God expects faithfulness & obedience from those He saves. Jesus was proof of that. The apostles were proof of that. The early church was warned of that.

Acts 5:29-32 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. [SUP]30 [/SUP]The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You can't be a witness for Jesus if you're walking in sin or just sittin' on yer butt.

 

[dcontroversal]

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done...what part of SALVATION Through (DIA) FAITH which is IN JESUS CHRIST is so hard to understand!

 

[Cassian]

just further proves your lack of understanding of what anyone says.

I love his appearing, because I KNOW I will be resurrected by him, to eternal life.

If anything, this passage should scare you. You think you can;t be sure you will make it or not. You may think yuo love his appearing. But that should scare the crap out of since you are unknowing if you will be on the right side of his judgment when he appears. or on the wrong side.

For me, personally, right now, I have assurance I am on the right side. But whether I will be on the right side 10 years from now or even three months from now, if He taries, I cannot guarantee. It does not depend on anyone, or anything except MY FAITH.

 

[dcontroversal]

Not entirely correct. You YOURSELF stated that a christian could have no works at all, have corrupt & evil works, & walk away from their relationship with Christ & STILL BE SAVED IN THE END. You keep sneaking in these damnable heresies & then say, "It's thru faith in Christ & nothing else".

Christians can "fall away" from the faith & be damned. It's by grace thru faith, true enuf, but God expects faithfulness & obedience from those He saves. Jesus was proof of that. The apostles were proof of that. The early church was warned of that.

Acts 5:29-32 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. [SUP]30 [/SUP]The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You can't be a witness for Jesus if you're walking in sin or just sittin' on yer butt.

How many times have you lost and re-gained your salvation???

I Have also taught that a true saved child of God will walk according to the word of God and do the things that are required....

THE SPIRIT that is Born of God...does it sin??? John states clearly that is does not sin...THAT WHICH IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT SIN....

THE SPIRIT that is BORN AGAIN CANNOT SIN AND DOES NOT SIN...so HOW CAN IT LOOSE IT"S SALVATION SEEING HOW IT IS BORN OF GOD AND IS ETERNAL????

 

[Cassian]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10[/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, not only conditional, but also we were actually created to do those works. WE were created for a purpose. Adam was not created perfect, but needed to mature through love and obedience. When we believe, we need to do the very same thing. We can fall just as did Adam, even quicker and easier.

 

[Cassian]

You are the one that is in error as this is pure bible and of the truth...again you flap your lips with no scripture and my statement is based upon scripture

There is no contradiction here whatsoever at all in my second post and it is you who ignorantly believe that a man can loose his ETERNAL salvation...keep trusting your works for salvation and you had better drink as much cold water as you can get while you are alive because one day you will beg for one drop as works to keep or fro salvation leads straight to hell and then the lake of fire!

Gen 1:24, Gen 2:7ff. God created man as a whole man, what we call a Person with ONE nature. We were not created to have parts that are indiependent of each other that each cannot operate separatly, independent of each other.

You keep saying I am in error, yet no text that says we are "saved by faith only". Also, you hold a view that one is saved, finitely, upon a moments ascent of faith and ones faith cannot be lost. Yet, not a single text has been put forth that says this.

This is your OP, we have 1033 posts and NOT ONE support text for your premise. Actually we have the other post as well, and that resulted in the same conclusion, there you could not disprove the OP.

You might focus on your objective instead of trying to redefine scripture around to the scripture that has been given in oppsition to the view of "saved by faith only".