SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
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Thanks. . .I know you are not trying to be mean, you are too nice for that.
I see unforgiveness, or holding a grudge, or disobedience (Mt 7:21-23), etc. all as evidence
of counterfeit faith, which is not true (saving) faith, and does not save.
And I understand salvation to mean that rebirth--faith--forgiveness of sin--
justification/positional righteousness ("rightwise" standing before God)--
salvation (from God's wrath on one's sin, Ro 5:9)--
repentance (turning from disobedience to obedience) all occur pretty much
simultaneously.
Yes, I see it as one of the links which occur with rebirth.
Yes, I see these as part of the links of salvation referred to above.
Isn't this referring to forgiveness of sin after salvation, and not part of saving faith itself?
My belief is somewhat different.
I see the curse of the law removed at the forgiveness of sin by faith through rebirth,
where Jesus' blood is applied to my sin, which bathes me clean, so that sins committed after
salvation are a matter of confession simply washing me (my feet) to make me clean (Jn 13:8-10).
For me, faith is that wholehearted casting of oneself on God in absolute trust in Jesus' completed work
on the cross to give me acceptance by God as his own whom he loves, and for whom he completely
provides, especially his so great salvation (Heb 2:3).
I believe our will is governed by our disposition.
And I believe rebirth and faith alter our disposition toward obedience and disobedience,
so that habitual disobedience (holding a grudge, refusal to forgive) gives evidence of an
unbelieving heart, or a counterfeit faith.
I see unforgiveness, or holding a grudge, or disobedience (Mt 7:21-23), etc. all as evidence
of counterfeit faith, which is not true (saving) faith, and does not save.
And I understand salvation to mean that rebirth--faith--forgiveness of sin--
justification/positional righteousness ("rightwise" standing before God)--
salvation (from God's wrath on one's sin, Ro 5:9)--
repentance (turning from disobedience to obedience) all occur pretty much
simultaneously.
Yes, I see it as one of the links which occur with rebirth.
Yes, I see these as part of the links of salvation referred to above.
Isn't this referring to forgiveness of sin after salvation, and not part of saving faith itself?
My belief is somewhat different.
I see the curse of the law removed at the forgiveness of sin by faith through rebirth,
where Jesus' blood is applied to my sin, which bathes me clean, so that sins committed after
salvation are a matter of confession simply washing me (my feet) to make me clean (Jn 13:8-10).
For me, faith is that wholehearted casting of oneself on God in absolute trust in Jesus' completed work
on the cross to give me acceptance by God as his own whom he loves, and for whom he completely
provides, especially his so great salvation (Heb 2:3).
I believe our will is governed by our disposition.
And I believe rebirth and faith alter our disposition toward obedience and disobedience,
so that habitual disobedience (holding a grudge, refusal to forgive) gives evidence of an
unbelieving heart, or a counterfeit faith.
Amazing, they all deal with works. What do you think the law of Moses deals with, or the law of faith, or freedom in Christ. It is all about works, but the applications are different. So little you know about the word "works" and how Paul uses them, and all of them are in Romans but else where as well.
Good points for sure and I agree......A child of God cannot live a continual lifestyle of sin and to do so implies that they were never born again to begin with. This is not to say a child of God will not sin as all are (sinning) and continually falling short of the glory of God in the flesh and there is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not...and if we say that we have no sin....etc.
What law are you speaking of are you a Jew? For one who is not a Jew to be entangled in matters that never concerned him in the first place is beyond me. I speak of the law of the spirit and I believe you know what I mean.
Romans 8:4
King James Version
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3-5
I am saying to you if you follow the spirit you will obey the master. Do you see the might there. Do you ever wonder why Christ lives to intercede or mediate on our behalf?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Some use this verse to say from the uttermost but notice it's to.
Romans 8:4
King James Version
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3-5
I am saying to you if you follow the spirit you will obey the master. Do you see the might there. Do you ever wonder why Christ lives to intercede or mediate on our behalf?
- Hebrews 9:15
- King James Version
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:14-16 - New International Version
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 9:14-16
- King James Version
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Some use this verse to say from the uttermost but notice it's to.
What law are you speaking of are you a Jew? For one who is not a Jew to be entangled in matters that never concerned him in the first place is beyond me. I speak of the law of the spirit and I believe you know what I mean.
Romans 8:4
King James Version
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3-5
I am saying to you if you follow the spirit you will obey the master. Do you see the might there. Do you ever wonder why Christ lives to intercede or mediate on our behalf?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Some use this verse to say from the uttermost but notice it's to.
Romans 8:4
King James Version
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3-5
I am saying to you if you follow the spirit you will obey the master. Do you see the might there. Do you ever wonder why Christ lives to intercede or mediate on our behalf?
- Hebrews 9:15
- King James Version
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:14-16 - New International Version
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 9:14-16
- King James Version
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Some use this verse to say from the uttermost but notice it's to.
Why worry about sin, you say the spirit is saved and they can do all these things and still be saved so why bother about it?
Your words pal...
Again you fail to see numerous truths from the word such as...
1. It is the spirit that is born again, does not sin and cannot loose it's salvation
2. Saved men/women can do the following and still be saved....
1. Backslide to the point they FORGOT that their SINS HAVE BEEN PURGED<--still saved
2. Live worldly and have works of WOOD, HAY and STUBBLE yet shall STILL BE SAVED thou NAKED AND ASHAMED in the day or their reward
3. Burn YOUR inheritance by riotous living and still BE RECIEVED AS A SON THAT WAS PERCIEVED DEAD, BUT WAS NOT DEAD, but RATHER LIVING WITH THE PIGS
4. Be spiritually immature with little to no growth and remain in a position where you cannot receive anything but milk
And numerous other truths in context that prove there is found every gambit (level of) Christian maturity and faith within the ranks of biblical Christianity.
Works do not and cannot save a spirit that has been redeemed, saved, justified, sanctified and made holy by having a birth from above based upon faith which results in a sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise which is the prepayment of our inheritance and cannot be lost!
Your words pal...
Again you fail to see numerous truths from the word such as...
1. It is the spirit that is born again, does not sin and cannot loose it's salvation
2. Saved men/women can do the following and still be saved....
1. Backslide to the point they FORGOT that their SINS HAVE BEEN PURGED<--still saved
2. Live worldly and have works of WOOD, HAY and STUBBLE yet shall STILL BE SAVED thou NAKED AND ASHAMED in the day or their reward
3. Burn YOUR inheritance by riotous living and still BE RECIEVED AS A SON THAT WAS PERCIEVED DEAD, BUT WAS NOT DEAD, but RATHER LIVING WITH THE PIGS
4. Be spiritually immature with little to no growth and remain in a position where you cannot receive anything but milk
And numerous other truths in context that prove there is found every gambit (level of) Christian maturity and faith within the ranks of biblical Christianity.
Works do not and cannot save a spirit that has been redeemed, saved, justified, sanctified and made holy by having a birth from above based upon faith which results in a sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise which is the prepayment of our inheritance and cannot be lost!
Matt 18
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Come as you are but don't stay as you are !!
[h=3]John 1:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[h=3]John 1:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Again another verse saying work means believe and believe means do nothing... same chapter What is Christ saying now
John 6
[SUP]63 [/SUP]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[SUP]65 [/SUP]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[SUP]66 [/SUP]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
[SUP]68 [/SUP]Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
[SUP]69 [/SUP]And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Those who believe will obey
[h=3]2 Thessalonians 1:7-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
I think it's time you guys find out what you have to obey
John 6
[SUP]63 [/SUP]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[SUP]65 [/SUP]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[SUP]66 [/SUP]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
[SUP]67 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
[SUP]68 [/SUP]Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
[SUP]69 [/SUP]And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Those who believe will obey
[h=3]2 Thessalonians 1:7-9[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
I think it's time you guys find out what you have to obey
But he has some work for you can you handle it?
[h=3]Romans 12[/h]King James Version (KJV)
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
These are the same things Jesus preached so are you going to obey or not?
[h=3]Romans 12[/h]King James Version (KJV)
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
These are the same things Jesus preached so are you going to obey or not?