SALVATION

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NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
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#61
Why would you come to faith, then lose faith? Is god trustworthy? If not, and he causes us to lose faith, then were we ever saved at all.

To me, you lose faith when a person fails you numerous times, since God never have failed us. If we had true saving faith, we will never lose it,
i take that as a no
:p

because God has never failed anyone

ok
then i think we atleast agree
that
continuing in faith is not a choice but the SUBSTANCE of what genuine faith is
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,905
1,197
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#62
The Greek interpretation of "salvation" is, A deliverance.
And salvation is deliverance from the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin.

And no, salvation does not come about by obeying the commandments but by obeying the Gospel. Big difference.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,238
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#63
i disagree

i believe we are saved by grace through faith

not choice

i didnt CHOOSE to believe Jesus is my Lord and savior

nor do i CHOOSE to continue to believe it

i dont CHOOSE to believe what is true

i just choose to seek truth

no matter how much i want
i cannot choose to believe i am saved by cheddar cheese

to me that is ridiculous

i cannot choose to believe i can fly


now being honest about what i believe is a choice

like when peter lied to save his own skin before the crows

he knew what he believed

he just chose to lie
No choice..not saved?
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
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#65
No choice..not saved?
maybe i chose (yes we have choice)
my words poorly

;)

and yes i am definitely saved

no doubt what so ever


but my faith does not stem from a choice i made to believe

and i did not choose to be called or drawn to Christ<- this was His work

i think i made a mistake with how i expressed this

sorry if my words were confusing
 
Mar 14, 2011
55,076
2,938
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#66
i take that as a no
:p

because God has never failed anyone

ok
then i think we atleast agree
that
continuing in faith is not a choice but the SUBSTANCE of what genuine faith is
Oh its a choice. It is jut God will never give you a reason to CHOSE to lose faith. But it is also a substance, A substance of things hoped for. Of things not seen, Which only God can give you.
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
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#67
Oh its a choice. It is jut God will never give you a reason to CHOSE to lose faith. But it is also a substance, A substance of things hoped for. Of things not seen, Which only God can give you.
if it is indeed a choice to continue to believe

then do you believe we are kept by His power in that.... no one ever chooses to lose faith because He doesnt give us a reason to choose to give up believing?

but if we believed He failed us

we could indeed choose to no longer be kept by His power?
 
Mar 14, 2011
55,076
2,938
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#68
if it is indeed a choice to continue to believe

then do you believe we are kept by His power in that.... no one ever chooses to lose faith because He doesnt give us a reason to choose to give up believing?

but if we believed He failed us

we could indeed choose to no longer be kept by His power?
Why woul dyou think he failed you if he never has?
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
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#69
please help me understand what you're saying

because our understanding is not perfect EG


and can't someone BELIEVE God failed them through lack of understanding?


which in turn

would mean someone (the someone in question is a born again believer.... not someone who is decieved) could choose to stop believing


which to me also does not make sense
for so many reasons.....

i dont need to continue to choose to believe fire is hot..... i believe it

but as a kid even though i was warned

i tested it
played with it
felt the and learned...

you cannot convince me fire is not hot

lol


this is muuuch different than a "belief" i may hold but i dont stand by because i understand that my belief may be wrong and my understanding is flawed

i used to like watching fights

i could "believe" someone would win based on past performances against different opponents

but my mind may change for many reasons

they dont need to give me one

but if they do
ya
i may still think they will win if they get injured
or i may not


to me this is different


i have no doubt in God
i do sometimes doubt MYSELF and my own understanding

but never Him

and i also could NOT believe He failed me
no matter what happens.... even if the rest of my life is nothing but trials


i would believe He never failed me


but you're saying if i could believe God could fail me ... then what


not genuine faith?
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
113
#70
please help me understand what you're saying

because our understanding is not perfect EG


and can't someone BELIEVE God failed them through lack of understanding?


which in turn

would mean someone (the someone in question is a born again believer.... not someone who is decieved) could choose to stop believing


which to me also does not make sense
for so many reasons.....

i dont need to continue to choose to believe fire is hot..... i believe it

but as a kid even though i was warned

i tested it
played with it
felt the heat from the fire and learned...

you cannot convince me fire is not hot now

lol


this is muuuch different than a "belief" i may hold but i dont stand by because i understand that my belief may be wrong and my understanding is flawed

i used to like watching fights

i could "believe" someone would win based on past performances against different opponents

but my mind may change for many reasons

they dont need to give me one

but if they do
ya
i may still think they will win if they get injured
or i may not


to me this is different


i have no doubt in God
i do sometimes doubt MYSELF and my own understanding

but never Him

and i also could NOT believe He failed me
no matter what happens.... even if the rest of my life is nothing but trials


i would believe He never failed me


but you're saying if i could believe God could fail me ... then what


not genuine faith?
whoops

corrected an error in the quote
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,574
149
63
#71
Ok..agreed with you for the most part..but we get "SAVED" by our CHOICE (to accept or reject ...after that..readung the Bible..learning how we should and SUBMITTING to God our sinful ways..only THEN can God start transforming us..some people dont like to submit certain areas of thier lives or arent "convicted" about areas in thier lives..thats between them and God..but "by thier fruits you shall know them"...no fruit.."sick" heart..AND NO..not saying that if we arent producing fruit we arent SAVED ..but biblically it talks about "pruning' tooo..OUCH..lol
Any action on man's part such as accepting, repenting, believing etc are "works" and we are not saved eternally by our works, however we are saved ( delivered ) by our good works in following God's commandments almost daily as we live our lives here on earth. The Greek interpretation for saved = deliverance. We are delivered by God's grace ( unmerited favor ) eternally and we are delivered by our good works ( accepting, repenting, believing etc ) while we are living on this earth. All scripture must harmonize.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,574
149
63
#72
please help me understand what you're saying

because our understanding is not perfect EG


and can't someone BELIEVE God failed them through lack of understanding?


which in turn

would mean someone (the someone in question is a born again believer.... not someone who is decieved) could choose to stop believing


which to me also does not make sense
for so many reasons.....

i dont need to continue to choose to believe fire is hot..... i believe it

but as a kid even though i was warned

i tested it
played with it
felt the and learned...

you cannot convince me fire is not hot

lol


this is muuuch different than a "belief" i may hold but i dont stand by because i understand that my belief may be wrong and my understanding is flawed

i used to like watching fights

i could "believe" someone would win based on past performances against different opponents

but my mind may change for many reasons

they dont need to give me one

but if they do
ya
i may still think they will win if they get injured
or i may not


to me this is different


i have no doubt in God
i do sometimes doubt MYSELF and my own understanding

but never Him

and i also could NOT believe He failed me
no matter what happens.... even if the rest of my life is nothing but trials


i would believe He never failed me


but you're saying if i could believe God could fail me ... then what


not genuine faith?
I am trying to understand what point you are trying to make. I do know that God never fails and accomplishes his will. Danial 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,238
113
#73
Any action on man's part such as accepting, repenting, believing etc are "works" and we are not saved eternally by our works, however we are saved ( delivered ) by our good works in following God's commandments almost daily as we live our lives here on earth. The Greek interpretation for saved = deliverance. We are delivered by God's grace ( unmerited favor ) eternally and we are delivered by our good works ( accepting, repenting, believing etc ) while we are living on this earth. All scripture must harmonize.
I thought we got this "unmerrited" favor thing taken care of..guess not..well..youre beatting a dead horse here..i dont believe a word you say...:)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,574
149
63
#74
I wish I had more time to dialogue with you, but, unfortunately, I don't! :( I would love to look at Scriptures and discuss this concept in more detail . . . I like your attitude and seriousness . . . but here in a few sentences is a summary of my thinking . . .

I will comment on this comment you made: "Like I have said, "most of the salvation scriptures are talking about being delivered while we are here on earth", so, there is a salvation by works (which is here on earth) and there is a salvation eternally by God's grace apart from man's works."

(1) No problem with your differentiation of two kinds of salvation Scriptures - good insight, though I don't think it is nearly as clear as you are saying it is . . .

(2) Anytime you say "salvation by works" on CC you are going to get an immediate and loud reaction and most of the people here will shut you off immediately as a heretic and a works-salvationist. I think a careful reading of what you are saying shows this is not what you are, though!

(3) I understand you as saying that if we obey Christ in our daily lives that this will deliver us physically while we are here on earth.

(4) In response to #3, I think you are right that the way that one lives will have a direct effect on one's life on Earth. This is true even for an unbeliever.

(5) The problem is that the two "salvations" are not as easily separable as you imply. By what you say, thus if we live right on Earth and do all the good works we can and should we will be "delivered" here on Earth - hence - the believer if he is obedient will not have problems, sickness, persecution, etc. - now I don't know if you believe that or not, but it is a direct corollary of the teaching you are promoting here.

(6) I do not believe that the Christian if he is obedient will not have sickness, difficulties, or persecution. It is always our faith in Christ and not our works that are the core of our relationship with the Saviour.

(7) So, yes, works are important, and the believer who does works will find positive results in this life here on Earth, but those works come out of his faith in Christ, which still makes all the positive results because of Jesus Christ.
Thank you Chester. I am a firm believer that before anyone can understand the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught, he has to deny himself ( quit depending upon his own intellect ) and the Holy Spirit within him has to reveal the understanding of the scriptures to him. I assure you that I believe trials, tribulations, sickness and difficult times are more upon God's children than those that are not his. Psalms 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED ( Greek interpretation of plagued in this verse is DIVINELY PUNISHED ) Rev 3:19, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent. The verse in Psalms tells us that God does not love those that are not his elect. Rom 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,238
113
#75
Thank you Chester. I am a firm believer that before anyone can understand the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught, he has to deny himself ( quit depending upon his own intellect ) and the Holy Spirit within him has to reveal the understanding of the scriptures to him. I assure you that I believe trials, tribulations, sickness and difficult times are more upon God's children than those that are not his. Psalms 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED ( Greek interpretation of plagued in this verse is DIVINELY PUNISHED ) Rev 3:19, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent. The verse in Psalms tells us that God does not love those that are not his elect. Rom 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Hmmmmm...:s
 

NoNameMcgee

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
5,068
1,204
113
#76
I am trying to understand what point you are trying to make. I do know that God never fails and accomplishes his will. Danial 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

well i made the points i wanted already

the main point of my posts on this thread

is God saves us
by grace through faith

but the post YOU just quoted was not me trying to make a point

i asked for eg (my brother in Christ who typically agrees with me)

to explain what HE was trying to say HE believes further

because i did not understand him
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,574
149
63
#77
And salvation is deliverance from the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin.

And no, salvation does not come about by obeying the commandments but by obeying the Gospel. Big difference.
I did not say that salvation (deliverance ) to eternal life came by obeying God's commandments. I did say that salvation ( deliverance ) in the here in time as we live on this earth is accomplished by our obedience to God's commandments. BIG DEFERENCE!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
12,451
991
113
#78
I did not say that salvation (deliverance ) to eternal life came by obeying God's commandments. I did say that salvation ( deliverance ) in the here in time as we live on this earth is accomplished by our obedience to God's commandments. BIG DEFERENCE!
Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Forgiveness is imputed not accomplished on our part.

Your soteriology is lacking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,574
149
63
#79
Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Forgiveness is imputed not accomplished on our part.

Your soteriology is lacking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
1 John 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
1,574
149
63
#80
well I already know the answers you will give in response the the verses, but here goes. You said I did not use scripture but here are 4 I used whcih anyone who knows the word would know they are the word of God and not made up stuff.

1. I said jesus died for the world. can you tell me what scripture that is?
2. I said Jesus died that whoever believes wil be given eternal life. Can you tell me what scripture that is?
3. I said it was the will of the father that whoever sees the son and believes in him, will never die, be given eternal life, and be resurrected by him, Can you tell me that scripture?
4. I used the passage which says no greater love has any man, do you know where that is?


of course these are just 4 examples. Yet you said I did not use scripture. which can only lead me to wonder if your reading anything I post at all.
as I have said before, I do not reference other men's writings, nor do I consider other men's comments that are not backed up by the King James scriptures by book, chapter and verse. You seem to not give book, chapter and verse on your comments and it is hard, sometimes, for me to know where you get your comments from because you use a different version of the bible than I do.