Saved By Laver of Regeneration and Cleansed By A Laver of Water
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Okaaay
Acts 18:who were the disciples?
(Act 18:24) And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
(Act 18:25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
(Act 18:26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
(Act 18:27) And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
(Act 18:28) For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
The disciples here are christians. Believers.
It wouldn't make sense then for in Acts 19 for the disciples to be not converted.. to be different from those in Acts 18.
Yes disciple does not necessarily mean saved believer in Jesus. .and could mean just 'follower' but this context here is about christian disciples... brethren.
What was wrong with John's baptism? Nothing.
The disciples were re-baptised in the name of Jesus.. because Apollos probably was not baptising in Jesus' name.
(Act 18:25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
(Act 18:26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Obviously he wasn't baptising by full immersion with water the right way.
Paul- had the right way of baptism. When he did it with the disciples.. the resulting affects showed what real baptism is.
Now- so Acts 2 is meant to be baptism of the Holy Spirit?
Well.. this isn't related to getting eternal life.
Acts 2- church at Jerusalem. .the brethren here were disciples and a church with Jesus as the Head before Pentecost!
What do you think Jesus is saying in Matthew?
Mat_18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Here is a system for resolving conflicts in a New Testament church.. BEFORE PENTECOST..
So maybe SeaBass you don't associate baptism of the Holy Spirit with eternal salvation.. well then that is at least one thing we can agree on.. but water baptism
That is an ordinance of a church after salvation that is a picture of Jesus' life death and resurrection.. a picture of what has already occured to person in that church when they were given eternal life by Jesus.
In summary:
You have eternal salvation: believe in Jesus- given eternal life-- no works here.. no water baptism by immersion.. no baptism of the Holy Spirit ................(Although I guess you could argue that the Holy Spirit washing someone by regeneration is figuratively baptism of the Holy Spirit).
You have full immersion water baptism: after being given eternal life, someone commits to being a member of one of God's churches and is baptised-- immersed under water.. picturing what has already occured to their soul by already being given eternal life.
You have the Holy Spirit empowering His churches: Acts 2 and the like thru the rest of Acts. The speaking in tongues and signs and wonders aren't needed now with this empowerment because of the need in Acts for God to start and spread His first churches and give the disciples visible authority from Him. They had no complete New Testament.. and so God gave them signs to show others they had His authority.
Where these get mixed up:
Associating the Holy Spirit empowering a church with actually giving eternal salvation to the individuals.
There is a need to seperate the Holy Spirit's work with a local church family and then His work with an individual in sealing them with the Holy Spirit.
Otherwise you end up saying people that have believed in Jesus haven't been converted yet.
There is a big difference between the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of a church family.... 'indwelling' an individual and 'upon' an individual.
Acts 19 is a good illustration of these differences: converted christians.. hadn't been baptised by full immersion water baptism correctly.. Paul baptises them correctly in Jesus' name then they are empowered as one of God's churches.
Holy Spirit worked in regenerating them much much earlier... then having His work in them pictured by them getting immersed.. and then empowered them as a new church of Jesus Christ.
Acts 18 says Apollos knew only the baptism of John and had been in Ephesus. From the limited information, I surmise then those 12 Ephesians were taught by Apollos and baptized with John's baptism making them disciples of John. I do not see how they could have been disciples of Christ (Christians) when Acts 19:4,5 shows they had not believed on Christ nor had they been baptized with Christ's baptism of the great commission that could make them disciples of Christ.
Some fact about the Ephesian Christians:
1) Eph 1:1-9 Paul said they were "in Christ" or 'in Him" and baptism is the only way to be in Christ, ,put on Christ, Gal 3:27
2) those Ephesians were saved by faith, Eph 2:8
Eph 2:8-----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Only one way to be saved then they must have been baptized with Christ's water baptism of the great commission that saves.
3) those 12 Ephesians were "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" Acts 19:5. This baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is the same water baptism of Acts 2:38 and Act 10:46,47. Paul therefore water baptized them with Christ's human administered water baptism of the great commission Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not a baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus" that is, has not been authorized by the Lord for men to be baptized with to be saved.
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The NT speaks of six or seven baptism but in this Christian dispensation, as Paul points out in Eph 4:5, there is one baptism that is in effect. ONE baptism, not many baptisms as there is ONE Lord, not many Lords, ONE faith, not many faiths. Yet many are trying to create many baptisms to try and find away to get around the necessity of water baptism.
Christ's baptism of the great commission is this one baptism:
--it is a water baptism administered by humans (HS baptism only administered by God as a promise to the apostles and proof to the Jews the gospel was to go to the Gentiles)
this water baptism is commanded to all creatures/nations (HS baptism is not commanded and was administered by God to a few select people)
--Christ's water baptism saves, no verses says baptism with the HS saves
--Christ lasts till the end of the world. (baptism with the HS was fulfilled 2000 yers ago and ceased, no verse says it lasts till the end of the world.
--Christ's baptism made one a disciple of Christ (baptism with the HS is not said to make one a disciple at all)
1 Cor 1:14,16 and 1 Cor 12:13 are therefore the exact same one baptism of the great commission.
Mk 16:16 the ONE Lord spoke of the ONE faith and ONE baptism that saves.
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You are the master of irony. 
Very interesting! I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say numerous times that before Pentecost while still "under the old law" water baptism was not necessary for salvation (in order to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism) then say it is necessary for salvation after Pentecost, under the new law. Keep in mind that this baptism of repentance in Mark 1:4 took place BEFORE Pentecost while still under the old law, but I'm hearing you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation under the old law. So which is it? You and your church cannot have it both ways. In Mark 1:4, baptism is clearly for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance. Just as in Matthew 3:11, "I baptize you with water for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance," not in order to obtain repentance, which would not even make sense.
The blood of Christ remits sins and not plain ordinary H20. John's baptism was for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance. Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - Acts 10:43-47) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." *That is in harmony with salvation through FAITH (not through water baptism) before and after Pentecost (John 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).
Jesus did not say water "baptism" in John 3:5 but Jesus said "water, living water and Spirit" in connection with eternal life in *John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.
None of us alive today were baptized by John the Baptist which doesn't change the fact that John said, "I baptize you with water for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance not in order to obtain repentance, which makes no sense at all. Where is the word "water" in 1 Corinthians 12:13? Paul said by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into ONE BODY.. *SPIRIT BAPTISM. You don't even know the difference. Chapter 1 does not change what Paul said in chapter 12. *Notice though in 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul said - For Christ did not send me to baptized, but to preach the gospel..
Again, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect, so Jesus is not teaching the erroneous doctrine of baptismal regeneration, as your church does along with Roman Catholics and Mormons. John 3:5 says "water"; John 4:10 says living water; John 4:14 says fountain of water springing up into everlasting life; John 7:38 says living water; John 7:39 says Spirit. It truly amazes me to see just how many hoops you will try to jump through in order to accommodate your flawed biased church doctrine.
Your argument is been dead and buried. Jesus said unless a man is born again (from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God. You are replacing "living water" with plain ordinary H20 and negating what Jesus said in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. Just because the Holy Spirit was not yet given (the thief was not sealed with the Holy Spirit) does not mean the thief on the cross was still lost. He was saved through faith just as we are. With that kind of logic, you would have to say that EVERYONE prior to Jesus being glorified remained lost.
1 Corinthians 12:13 is SPIRIT baptism that you refuse to see so your argument is moot. Roman Catholics, Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals would agree with you though. You are not in good company!
I didn't ADD anything. Paul said by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into one body.. THAT IS SPIRIT BAPTIZED. You replace SPIRIT with "water" so it's you adding and changing God's word to make it fit your biased church doctrine.
More faulty human logic which does not change the fact that by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...one baptism.
We have here a command of Christ that we should go and make disciples of all nations, and then baptize them. Becoming a disciple of Christ is a heart decision that we make before we get water baptized. Water baptism does not make you become a disciple no more than putting on a robe makes one a judge. Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare his qualifications. We first choose to become disciples of Christ and then we signify this in baptism. Water baptism does not magically make us become disciples.
After reading Romans 4:11 and Colossians 2:11-12 it's pretty clear. Nowhere does the Bible say water baptized or condemned. Water baptism FOLLOWED the salvation that has already occurred in Acts 10:43-47. That is crystal clear, but you have closed your eyes and refuse to see the truth.
You never proved otherwise. There "is a reference" to baptism does not mean that water baptism is the cause of regeneration. Again, Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6, the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. Amen! What Robertson admitted to does not support your accusation.
Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1, 2). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is “imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification” (Romans 4:24,25). Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs “through faith.” Christians are “buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about “through faith” - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
Reference as in the picture of the new birth, not the means of securing it. You are completely obsessed with water baptism. I'm beginning to think that your church is a water baptism cult.
I agree that it's the picture of the new birth, not the means of securing it. I don't throw out Jesus' words in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 as you do.
As Robertson said in regards to Romans 6:4 - It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Robertson did not say that water baptism is the source of washing in Ephesians 5:26 or Titus 3:5 so your argument is moot.
Now for the word “enduo” (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts.” This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to “put on” Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to “put on” Christ. To “put on” Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we “put on” Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must “put on” Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent. The verb in Greek translated “put on” has the meaning of putting on a badge or uniform of service like that of a soldier. According to Greek scholar A.T. Robertson: “This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). In I Thessalonians 5:8 Paul speaks of “putting on the breastplate of righteousness.” He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier’s sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one’s stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already (Romans 6:4-6).”
You can try all you want to twist Robertson's statements and discredit him but the fact remains - water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation. FAITH IS. *You are not fooling any genuine believers on this forum.
Very interesting! I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say numerous times that before Pentecost while still "under the old law" water baptism was not necessary for salvation (in order to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism) then say it is necessary for salvation after Pentecost, under the new law. Keep in mind that this baptism of repentance in Mark 1:4 took place BEFORE Pentecost while still under the old law, but I'm hearing you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation under the old law. So which is it? You and your church cannot have it both ways. In Mark 1:4, baptism is clearly for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance. Just as in Matthew 3:11, "I baptize you with water for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance," not in order to obtain repentance, which would not even make sense.
The blood of Christ remits sins and not plain ordinary H20. John's baptism was for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance. Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - Acts 10:43-47) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." *That is in harmony with salvation through FAITH (not through water baptism) before and after Pentecost (John 3:16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).
Jesus did not say water "baptism" in John 3:5 but Jesus said "water, living water and Spirit" in connection with eternal life in *John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.
None of us alive today were baptized by John the Baptist which doesn't change the fact that John said, "I baptize you with water for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance not in order to obtain repentance, which makes no sense at all. Where is the word "water" in 1 Corinthians 12:13? Paul said by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into ONE BODY.. *SPIRIT BAPTISM. You don't even know the difference. Chapter 1 does not change what Paul said in chapter 12. *Notice though in 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul said - For Christ did not send me to baptized, but to preach the gospel..
Again, when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect, so Jesus is not teaching the erroneous doctrine of baptismal regeneration, as your church does along with Roman Catholics and Mormons. John 3:5 says "water"; John 4:10 says living water; John 4:14 says fountain of water springing up into everlasting life; John 7:38 says living water; John 7:39 says Spirit. It truly amazes me to see just how many hoops you will try to jump through in order to accommodate your flawed biased church doctrine.
Your argument is been dead and buried. Jesus said unless a man is born again (from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God. You are replacing "living water" with plain ordinary H20 and negating what Jesus said in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. Just because the Holy Spirit was not yet given (the thief was not sealed with the Holy Spirit) does not mean the thief on the cross was still lost. He was saved through faith just as we are. With that kind of logic, you would have to say that EVERYONE prior to Jesus being glorified remained lost.
1 Corinthians 12:13 is SPIRIT baptism that you refuse to see so your argument is moot. Roman Catholics, Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals would agree with you though. You are not in good company!
I didn't ADD anything. Paul said by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into one body.. THAT IS SPIRIT BAPTIZED. You replace SPIRIT with "water" so it's you adding and changing God's word to make it fit your biased church doctrine.
More faulty human logic which does not change the fact that by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...one baptism.
We have here a command of Christ that we should go and make disciples of all nations, and then baptize them. Becoming a disciple of Christ is a heart decision that we make before we get water baptized. Water baptism does not make you become a disciple no more than putting on a robe makes one a judge. Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare his qualifications. We first choose to become disciples of Christ and then we signify this in baptism. Water baptism does not magically make us become disciples.
After reading Romans 4:11 and Colossians 2:11-12 it's pretty clear. Nowhere does the Bible say water baptized or condemned. Water baptism FOLLOWED the salvation that has already occurred in Acts 10:43-47. That is crystal clear, but you have closed your eyes and refuse to see the truth.
You never proved otherwise. There "is a reference" to baptism does not mean that water baptism is the cause of regeneration. Again, Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6, the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. Amen! What Robertson admitted to does not support your accusation.
Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1, 2). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is “imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification” (Romans 4:24,25). Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs “through faith.” Christians are “buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about “through faith” - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
Reference as in the picture of the new birth, not the means of securing it. You are completely obsessed with water baptism.
I'm beginning to think that your church is a water baptism cult. I agree that it's the picture of the new birth, not the means of securing it. I don't throw out Jesus' words in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 as you do.
As Robertson said in regards to Romans 6:4 - It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Robertson did not say that water baptism is the source of washing in Ephesians 5:26 or Titus 3:5 so your argument is moot.
Now for the word “enduo” (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts.” This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to “put on” Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to “put on” Christ. To “put on” Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we “put on” Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must “put on” Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent. The verb in Greek translated “put on” has the meaning of putting on a badge or uniform of service like that of a soldier. According to Greek scholar A.T. Robertson: “This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). In I Thessalonians 5:8 Paul speaks of “putting on the breastplate of righteousness.” He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier’s sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one’s stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already (Romans 6:4-6).”
You can try all you want to twist Robertson's statements and discredit him but the fact remains - water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation. FAITH IS. *You are not fooling any genuine believers on this forum.
John's baptism was only in effect for a short time period during the transition from the OT to the NT and was not in effect though out all the OT. It was replaced by Christ's water baptism of the great commission in Acts 2 on Pentecost. John's baptism was prepatory for the coming Messiah preparing people to entering the kingdom.
It is a straw man to say water washes away sins, it is the blood of Christ that washes away sins Rev 1:5, that blood was shed in His death, Jn 19:34 and it is baptism that puts one in Christ's death where His blood washes away sins, Rom 6:3-7 and Robertson admits this is water baptism in Rom 6. Do you?
Mt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
Who is speaking/ John
Who is being spoken to? us today? No those Pharisees.
Why would John say to those Pharisees "I indeed baptize you with water" when John had not for they rejected John's baptism, Lk 7:30? John is using both pronoun 'you's in a generic sense, he was simply announcing the type of bpatism he baptized with and the type of baptism Christ will baptize with and did not promise Christ's baptism with the HS to anyone in in his audience then or anyone today. THe fulfillment of these words that Christ quited are in Acts 1:1-5 where it is the apostles being the ones being promised baptism with the HS not anyone today.
I have already demonstrated your argument to be dead and not valid, you argument being that Jn 3:5, 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 5:26; Tts 3:5 are all baptism with the HS.
Jn 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
These words were spoken in prophecy about the baptism with the HS that wouls take place on Pentecost in Acts 2 with the apostles. THerefore baptism with the HS did not occur before Acts 2 meaning Jn 3:5 along with the other born again verses of 1 Cor 12:13; Tts 3:5; Eph 5:26 are not, cannot be , impossible to be baptism with the HS. Your argument is dead.
Furthermore and lastly,
One other issue you will have to find a way to get around:
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The use of the conjunction "and" would indicate that the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is something different from and the result after one is "baptized. And being "baptized" is something different from and results from after one "repents".
Yet some people, to avoid the necessity of water baptism, claim that the 'baptism' of Acts 2:38 is baptism with the Holy Spirit, that they receive an indwelling of the HS when baptized. You you claim "gift of the Holy Ghost" is ALSO the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So if this were true, does one receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost when baptized or receive the gift of an indwelling of the Holy Ghost sometimes after being baptized.
Yet "shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" is future tense. So if "gift of the Holy Ghost" means an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, then this baptism of Acts 2:38 cannot be baptism with the Holy Ghost for one would not receive the Holy Ghost until some point in the future AFTER already having been baptized. He would receive an indwelling of the Holy Ghost as a gift in the future some time AFTERhe was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
So you will have to make up your mind:.
is the 'baptism' of Acts 2:38 the baptism with the Holy Ghost where one receives an indwelling of the HG when baptized
or
one does not receive an indwelling of the Holy Ghost when baptized but receives that indwelling sometime in the future as a "gift" AFTER he was already baptized with the Holy Ghost.
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As Paul points out in this Christian dispensation, there is ONE baptism (not many baptisms) which places us into the body of Christ and unites all believers into ONE body and that is SPIRIT baptism (not water baptism) - For by ONE SPIRIT we were ALL (not just a few select people) baptized into ONE body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13).
False. By ONE SPIRIT we were ALL baptized into ONE body (Spirit baptism) is this ONE baptism. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to place believers into ONE body (the body of Christ) and unite all believers into ONE body.
Holy Spirit baptism places ALL believers into the body of Christ and unites ALL believers into ONE body. Water baptism is the picture of the reality, but not the reality itself. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Water baptism may have been commanded to all, but water baptism is not the baptism that places us into ONE body and unites ALL believers into ONE body, which is SPIRIT baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13). Holy Spirit baptism was NOT merely administered to a few select people but to ALL believers. The promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit is for you and your children and for ALL who are far off (Acts 2:39). That is not merely a select few. You are being dishonest for the sake of accommodating your false doctrine.
Salvation is signified, yet not procured in water baptism. Believes in Him, received the Holy Spirit and saved before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).
If baptism with the Holy Spirit/receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit was fulfilled 2000 years ago, then nobody since then has been baptized by ONE SPIRIT into ONE body (the body of Christ) and has received the gift of the Holy Spirit since then, in contradiction to by ONE Spirit we were ALL baptized into ONE body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13). Also what happened to the promise of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit being to you and your children and to ALL who are far off in Acts 2:39? Your erroneous argument is merely a desperate attempt to get around the truth. See what happens when the natural man interprets scripture? The end result will always be flawed theology/works salvation.
Becoming a disciple of Christ is a heart decision made prior to being water baptized. Water baptism has no power in of itself to "make" someone become a disciple of Christ as if the water has mystical powers. Spirit baptism is what places us into the body of Christ when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved and water baptism follows (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 16:31).
Absolutely false and you cannot understand the difference here between water baptism (1 Corinthians 1:14,16) and Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13) because the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Mark 16:16 simply says - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief, as Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and did not even mention water baptism. Water baptism is clearly NOT the ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13).
False. By ONE SPIRIT we were ALL baptized into ONE body (Spirit baptism) is this ONE baptism. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to place believers into ONE body (the body of Christ) and unite all believers into ONE body.
Holy Spirit baptism places ALL believers into the body of Christ and unites ALL believers into ONE body. Water baptism is the picture of the reality, but not the reality itself. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Water baptism may have been commanded to all, but water baptism is not the baptism that places us into ONE body and unites ALL believers into ONE body, which is SPIRIT baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13). Holy Spirit baptism was NOT merely administered to a few select people but to ALL believers. The promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit is for you and your children and for ALL who are far off (Acts 2:39). That is not merely a select few. You are being dishonest for the sake of accommodating your false doctrine.
Salvation is signified, yet not procured in water baptism. Believes in Him, received the Holy Spirit and saved before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).
If baptism with the Holy Spirit/receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit was fulfilled 2000 years ago, then nobody since then has been baptized by ONE SPIRIT into ONE body (the body of Christ) and has received the gift of the Holy Spirit since then, in contradiction to by ONE Spirit we were ALL baptized into ONE body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13). Also what happened to the promise of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit being to you and your children and to ALL who are far off in Acts 2:39? Your erroneous argument is merely a desperate attempt to get around the truth. See what happens when the natural man interprets scripture? The end result will always be flawed theology/works salvation.
Becoming a disciple of Christ is a heart decision made prior to being water baptized. Water baptism has no power in of itself to "make" someone become a disciple of Christ as if the water has mystical powers. Spirit baptism is what places us into the body of Christ when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved and water baptism follows (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 16:31).
Absolutely false and you cannot understand the difference here between water baptism (1 Corinthians 1:14,16) and Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13) because the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Mark 16:16 simply says - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief, as Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) and did not even mention water baptism. Water baptism is clearly NOT the ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13).
Robertson said - The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Robertson is not admitting that water baptism is the reality, though he admits that water baptism is the picture of the reality. I agree with Robertson.
So Peter's promise in Acts 2:39 to you and your children and ALL who are far off was an empty promise because only a select few will receive Spirit baptism which happens when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not. In Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" It didn't stop there either. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *This is clearly not limited to a select few.
You have demonstrated NOTHING except that you are spiritually discerned and dead in understanding. Water, living water, drink into one Spirit, spiritual washing still stands. Baptismal regeneration is heresy.
The Holy Spirit was not yet given, they were not yet sealed with the Holy Spirit, but this does not mean that nobody was saved before this happened. Why did Jesus tell the woman at the well, ask me for a drink and I will give you living water? In verse 14, Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life. Everyone prior to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit after Jesus was glorified was out of luck to drink of the water that Jesus gives them springing up to eternal life?
My argument is very much alive. So one must receive the indwelling Holy Spirit in order to be cleansed and receive eternal life? This means that everyone prior to Pentecost was out of luck. Did Jesus lie to the woman at the well? God is the source of living water and eternal life. In Jeremiah 2:13, God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water. In Isaiah 12:3 we read, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." Were Jeremiah and Isaiah talking about water baptism? NO. Your argument is dead. So what is the water that cleanses us on the inside in the OT and NT?
There is nothing to get around here. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit and is not merely the gift of tongues that you use as an argument to get around the truth. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation as those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit were saved (Acts 11:17; 16:31) prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). When we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.
I don't teach that the baptism in Acts 2:38 is Spirit baptism so your argument is moot. The gift of the Holy Spirit is received when we repent and believe the gospel before water baptism (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18).
One receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) and are saved (Acts 16:31) before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). So you will have to make up your mind. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel or remain in UNBELIEF?
So Peter's promise in Acts 2:39 to you and your children and ALL who are far off was an empty promise because only a select few will receive Spirit baptism which happens when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not. In Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" It didn't stop there either. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *This is clearly not limited to a select few.
You have demonstrated NOTHING except that you are spiritually discerned and dead in understanding. Water, living water, drink into one Spirit, spiritual washing still stands. Baptismal regeneration is heresy.
The Holy Spirit was not yet given, they were not yet sealed with the Holy Spirit, but this does not mean that nobody was saved before this happened. Why did Jesus tell the woman at the well, ask me for a drink and I will give you living water? In verse 14, Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life. Everyone prior to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit after Jesus was glorified was out of luck to drink of the water that Jesus gives them springing up to eternal life?
My argument is very much alive. So one must receive the indwelling Holy Spirit in order to be cleansed and receive eternal life? This means that everyone prior to Pentecost was out of luck. Did Jesus lie to the woman at the well? God is the source of living water and eternal life. In Jeremiah 2:13, God Himself is called the "fountain of living water." For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living water, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water. In Isaiah 12:3 we read, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." Were Jeremiah and Isaiah talking about water baptism? NO. Your argument is dead. So what is the water that cleanses us on the inside in the OT and NT?
There is nothing to get around here. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit and is not merely the gift of tongues that you use as an argument to get around the truth. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation as those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit were saved (Acts 11:17; 16:31) prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). When we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.
I don't teach that the baptism in Acts 2:38 is Spirit baptism so your argument is moot. The gift of the Holy Spirit is received when we repent and believe the gospel before water baptism (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18).
One receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) and are saved (Acts 16:31) before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). So you will have to make up your mind. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel or remain in UNBELIEF?
Is it baptism in and of itself that saves or is it the faith that believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and ACTS OUT IN FAITH AND LOVE and is baptized that saves? Can one say they love Jesus and NOT do what He commands us to do? Can one really say they believe Him if one does not do what He commands us to do?
Jesus said this
John 14
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21[/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
Do you understand what the water in baptism is a PICTURE of? Do you understand why they say the water cleanses us? The Holy is NOT a picture of Jesus death. The water in baptism is a PICTURE of Jesus death.
John very clearly says this
1 John 5
[SUP]6 [/SUP]This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that testify: [SUP]8[/SUP]the[SUP][a][/SUP] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. [SUP]9 [/SUP]We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Why does John say those three are in agreement?
John 19
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. [SUP]32 [/SUP]The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [SUP]34[/SUP]Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. [SUP]35 [/SUP]The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. [SUP]36 [/SUP]These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]37 [/SUP]and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
Did John write that blood and WATER flowed from Jesus side?
The water in baptism is a PICTURE of the water that flowed from Jesus side. The water that CLEANSES us is the water that flowed from Jesus side. And baptism is a PICTURE of submitting to the cleaning water of Jesus death. That DOES NOT happen in spirit baptism.
Jesus said this
John 14
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21[/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
Do you understand what the water in baptism is a PICTURE of? Do you understand why they say the water cleanses us? The Holy is NOT a picture of Jesus death. The water in baptism is a PICTURE of Jesus death.
John very clearly says this
1 John 5
[SUP]6 [/SUP]This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that testify: [SUP]8[/SUP]the[SUP][a][/SUP] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. [SUP]9 [/SUP]We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Why does John say those three are in agreement?
John 19
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. [SUP]32 [/SUP]The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [SUP]34[/SUP]Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. [SUP]35 [/SUP]The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. [SUP]36 [/SUP]These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]37 [/SUP]and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
Did John write that blood and WATER flowed from Jesus side?
The water in baptism is a PICTURE of the water that flowed from Jesus side. The water that CLEANSES us is the water that flowed from Jesus side. And baptism is a PICTURE of submitting to the cleaning water of Jesus death. That DOES NOT happen in spirit baptism.
There is ONE baptism in effect in the Christian dispensation not two or three or four, Eph 4:5
You did not solve your problem, here it is again and I will keep posting it over and over:
Jn 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
These words were spoken in prophecy about the baptism with the HS that wouls take place on Pentecost in Acts 2 with the apostles. THerefore baptism with the HS did not occur before Acts 2 meaning Jn 3:5 along with the other born again verses of 1 Cor 12:13; Tts 3:5; Eph 5:26 are not, cannot be , impossible to be baptism with the HS. Your argument is dead.
Furthermore and lastly,
One other issue you will have to find a way to get around:
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The use of the conjunction "and" would indicate that the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is something different from and the result after one is "baptized. And being "baptized" is something different from and results from after one "repents".
Yet some people, to avoid the necessity of water baptism, claim that the 'baptism' of Acts 2:38 is baptism with the Holy Spirit, that they receive an indwelling of the HS when baptized. You you claim "gift of the Holy Ghost" is ALSO the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So if this were true, does one receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost when baptized or receive the gift of an indwelling of the Holy Ghost sometimes after being baptized.
Yet "shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" is future tense. So if "gift of the Holy Ghost" means an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, then this baptism of Acts 2:38 cannot be baptism with the Holy Ghost for one would not receive the Holy Ghost until some point in the future AFTER already having been baptized. He would receive an indwelling of the Holy Ghost as a gift in the future some time AFTERhe was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
So you will have to make up your mind:.
is the 'baptism' of Acts 2:38 the baptism with the Holy Ghost where one receives an indwelling of the HG when baptized
or
one does not receive an indwelling of the Holy Ghost when baptized but receives that indwelling sometime in the future as a "gift" AFTER he was already baptized with the Holy Ghost.
-----------------------------------------
Your argument in trying to replace water baptism with baptism of the HS is dead, you'll have to find another one.
You did not solve your problem, here it is again and I will keep posting it over and over:
Jn 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
These words were spoken in prophecy about the baptism with the HS that wouls take place on Pentecost in Acts 2 with the apostles. THerefore baptism with the HS did not occur before Acts 2 meaning Jn 3:5 along with the other born again verses of 1 Cor 12:13; Tts 3:5; Eph 5:26 are not, cannot be , impossible to be baptism with the HS. Your argument is dead.
Furthermore and lastly,
One other issue you will have to find a way to get around:
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The use of the conjunction "and" would indicate that the "gift of the Holy Ghost" is something different from and the result after one is "baptized. And being "baptized" is something different from and results from after one "repents".
Yet some people, to avoid the necessity of water baptism, claim that the 'baptism' of Acts 2:38 is baptism with the Holy Spirit, that they receive an indwelling of the HS when baptized. You you claim "gift of the Holy Ghost" is ALSO the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So if this were true, does one receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost when baptized or receive the gift of an indwelling of the Holy Ghost sometimes after being baptized.
Yet "shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" is future tense. So if "gift of the Holy Ghost" means an indwelling of the Holy Ghost, then this baptism of Acts 2:38 cannot be baptism with the Holy Ghost for one would not receive the Holy Ghost until some point in the future AFTER already having been baptized. He would receive an indwelling of the Holy Ghost as a gift in the future some time AFTERhe was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
So you will have to make up your mind:.
is the 'baptism' of Acts 2:38 the baptism with the Holy Ghost where one receives an indwelling of the HG when baptized
or
one does not receive an indwelling of the Holy Ghost when baptized but receives that indwelling sometime in the future as a "gift" AFTER he was already baptized with the Holy Ghost.
-----------------------------------------
Your argument in trying to replace water baptism with baptism of the HS is dead, you'll have to find another one.
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There is ONE baptism (not many baptisms) which places us into the body of Christ and unites all believers into ONE body and that is SPIRIT baptism (not water baptism) - For by ONE SPIRIT we were ALL (not just a few select people) baptized intoONE body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13). Ephesians 4:5 - ..ONE baptism. Water baptism is still in effect for this dispensation, along with Spirit baptism, but water baptism is not the one baptism that places us into the body of Christ.
I don't have a problem. Jesus told the woman at the well in verse 10 - "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and He would have given you living water." 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." What is this living water that Jesus would give her to drink? Water baptism? NO. Who is the source of living water and eternal life? Did people prior to Jesus being glorified remain unclean and lost because they have not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were not yet Spirit baptized into the body of Christ? NO. John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. John 13:10 - And you are clean, though not every one of you. 1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. *What cleanses man on the inside? *Living water or plain ordinary H20?
So does this mean that people remained unclean before the Holy Spirit was given? (John 15:3; 13:10-11).
My argument is not dead because one does not have to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit after Acts 2 in order to be clean on the inside via living water (John 4:10; 4:14; 15:3; 13:10-11). Your argument is dead because when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized? Also, if "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds foolish, it is no more so than the idea that baptism is the source or the means of being born again.
Furthermore and lastly,
I see that you continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught without effect. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit and is not merely the gift of tongues that you use as an argument to get around the truth. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Once again water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation as those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit were saved (Acts 11:17; 16:31) prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). When we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT, but keep on dancing.
Again, I don't teach that the baptism in Acts 2:38 is Spirit baptism so your argument is moot. The gift of the Holy Spirit is received when we repent and believe the gospel before water baptism (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18). Plain and simple, yet you insist on fighting the truth.
One receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) and are saved (Acts 16:31) before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). So you will have to make up your mind. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) or remain in UNBELIEF? (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). -----------------------------------------
Your argument in trying to place salvation after water baptism is dead (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). You'll have to find someone else to try and fool with your perverted gospel. I'm not the one! Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" These five verses blow your watered down perverted gospel right out of the water! *It's time for you to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel.
I don't have a problem. Jesus told the woman at the well in verse 10 - "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and He would have given you living water." 14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." What is this living water that Jesus would give her to drink? Water baptism? NO. Who is the source of living water and eternal life? Did people prior to Jesus being glorified remain unclean and lost because they have not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were not yet Spirit baptized into the body of Christ? NO. John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. John 13:10 - And you are clean, though not every one of you. 1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. *What cleanses man on the inside? *Living water or plain ordinary H20?
So does this mean that people remained unclean before the Holy Spirit was given? (John 15:3; 13:10-11).
My argument is not dead because one does not have to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit after Acts 2 in order to be clean on the inside via living water (John 4:10; 4:14; 15:3; 13:10-11). Your argument is dead because when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized? Also, if "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds foolish, it is no more so than the idea that baptism is the source or the means of being born again.
Furthermore and lastly,
I see that you continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught without effect. The gift of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit and is not merely the gift of tongues that you use as an argument to get around the truth. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Once again water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation as those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit were saved (Acts 11:17; 16:31) prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). When we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT, but keep on dancing.
Again, I don't teach that the baptism in Acts 2:38 is Spirit baptism so your argument is moot. The gift of the Holy Spirit is received when we repent and believe the gospel before water baptism (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18). Plain and simple, yet you insist on fighting the truth.
One receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) and are saved (Acts 16:31) before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). So you will have to make up your mind. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) or remain in UNBELIEF? (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). -----------------------------------------
Your argument in trying to place salvation after water baptism is dead (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). You'll have to find someone else to try and fool with your perverted gospel. I'm not the one! Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" These five verses blow your watered down perverted gospel right out of the water! *It's time for you to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel.
There is ONE baptism in this Christian dispensation that puts one in the body of Christ and that is the human adminisitered water baptism of the great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16 that lasts till the end of the world, the baptism disciples as Paul was commissioned to baptize with in 1 Cor 1;14,16 AND 1 Cor 12:13.
You have not resolved your problem. Jn 7:39 is looking forward to Acts 2 where baptism with the HS first takes place with the apostles meaning jn 3:5 cannot be baptism with the HS. But Jesus was upbraiding Nicodemus over rejecting John's water baptism Jn 3:23; Lk 7:30 the 'water' of Jn 3:5. Jesus was not upbraiding them for rejecting baptism with the HS for 1) that baptism had not yet occurred and 2) baptism with the HS is not something those Jews could obey, it was out of their control if they had not been baptized with the HS. But it was in their control and their fault for not having been baptized with John's baptism.
So you argument is dead for baptism with the HS had not yet occurred at the times of Jn 3:5. Jn 3:5 is WATER baptism for it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be baptism with the HS. You cannot argue the Spirit was given in Jn 3:5 when it had not.
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In Acts 2:38 "gift of the HS" is something that comes after and as a result of having been baptized. So the baptism in this verses cannot be baptism with the HS.
You say "One receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"
If you think "gift of the HS" is the indwelling of the HS then 1) Peter did not say this gift comes as a result of believe only but comes a a result of one having repented and baptized. Again, this gift comes AFTER and as a result of one having been baptized.
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MK 16:16 both believe and baptized come BEFORE saved. Children can see that baptized COMES before saved in the verse.
Yet you will IGNORE the connecting power of the conjunction "and" that makes believe and baptize inseparable, yet you will go ahead and separate them, rewrite the verse to force it to fit your theology.
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Lest the posts get to far away from the title of this thread, a laver, baptismal font is involved in the new birth where water baptism takes place.
You have not resolved your problem. Jn 7:39 is looking forward to Acts 2 where baptism with the HS first takes place with the apostles meaning jn 3:5 cannot be baptism with the HS. But Jesus was upbraiding Nicodemus over rejecting John's water baptism Jn 3:23; Lk 7:30 the 'water' of Jn 3:5. Jesus was not upbraiding them for rejecting baptism with the HS for 1) that baptism had not yet occurred and 2) baptism with the HS is not something those Jews could obey, it was out of their control if they had not been baptized with the HS. But it was in their control and their fault for not having been baptized with John's baptism.
So you argument is dead for baptism with the HS had not yet occurred at the times of Jn 3:5. Jn 3:5 is WATER baptism for it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be baptism with the HS. You cannot argue the Spirit was given in Jn 3:5 when it had not.
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In Acts 2:38 "gift of the HS" is something that comes after and as a result of having been baptized. So the baptism in this verses cannot be baptism with the HS.
You say "One receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"
If you think "gift of the HS" is the indwelling of the HS then 1) Peter did not say this gift comes as a result of believe only but comes a a result of one having repented and baptized. Again, this gift comes AFTER and as a result of one having been baptized.
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MK 16:16 both believe and baptized come BEFORE saved. Children can see that baptized COMES before saved in the verse.
Yet you will IGNORE the connecting power of the conjunction "and" that makes believe and baptize inseparable, yet you will go ahead and separate them, rewrite the verse to force it to fit your theology.
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Lest the posts get to far away from the title of this thread, a laver, baptismal font is involved in the new birth where water baptism takes place.
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Water baptism has no power to put one in the body of Christ. Plain ordinary H20 is not mystical water that magically accomplishes this. Your argument is still false no matter how many times you repeat it. There is ONE baptism in this Christian dispensation that puts one in the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism - 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by ONE SPIRIT we were ALL baptized into ONE body.. not water baptism. *Why do you ignore the words BY ONE SPIRIT in 1 Corinthians 12:13?
I have no problem to resolve. You have not resolved your problem. When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question from people who attend the church os Christ is: "The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant." So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was "under the Old Covenant" will try to use John 3:5 as "proof" that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized? You also have one other major problem to resolve. *You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel before it's too late.
When did I say that baptism with the Holy Spirit took place prior to Acts 2? Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). This was BEFORE Acts 2. In Ephesians 5:26, Paul said washing of water by the word. See the connection? In a passage on the means of Regeneration, the Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). No baptism mentioned there. So here Peter speaks of the use made of the Word of God in Regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the New Birth. Here Peter is saying the same as Jesus said in John 3:5. So John 3:5 does not refer to water baptism but to the need for spiritual cleansing. Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 4:10,14; 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). *This all fits together perfectly.
Where did Jesus mention baptism in John 3:5 or the context of John 3:5? That is your insertion. Simply reading this verse in context would give one no reason to assume Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus simply said "water" in John 3:5 (not baptism) just as Jesus said water and "living water" in John 4:10,14 and not baptism. By the time we get all the way down to verse 23, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over and Jesus and his disciples have already moved on to the land of Judea (vs. 22). Prior to verse 22, what did Jesus say in John 3:16 and John 3:18? *What happened to baptism there?
My argument is not that the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred prior to Acts 2 during the times of John 3:5, so your false accusation is dead. I'm not arguing that the Spirit was given in John 3:5 in contradiction to John 7:39, but the Holy Spirit is still the source of living water and the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. Compare "fountain of living water" in Jeremiah 2:13 with "fountain of living water" in John 4:14. Also read in Isaiah 12:3 - "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. *That's not water baptism and notice how Jesus connects this fountain of living water with everlasting life in John 4:14. Are you seeing the light yet or are you still determined to fight the truth?
I never said that baptism in this verse is Spirit baptism. Yet in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. So water baptism does not precede the gift of the Holy Spirit, as we see in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17,18 and Acts 15:8,9. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Amen! Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *That is crystal clear water boy. Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical, so the gift comes as a result of repentance/belief prior to water baptism, as I showed you in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17-18, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. What part of whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins/the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM* Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life don't you understand?
Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." So Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *Nowhere does the Bible say whoever is not baptized will be condemned. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? Children can see that baptism is not even mentioned in these 9 verses.
Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" belief and baptism are not inseparable. Jesus did not say whoever does not believe "and" is not baptized will be condemned, so your argument is dead. Jesus was simply talking about general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized.
Only in your mystical dreams. As Strong's said - "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. How long will you continue to fight the truth and remain in UNBELIEF? The water god cannot save you, but the Savior God can. You need to REPENT and place your faith EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation today and be saved. I will continue to pray for you.
I have no problem to resolve. You have not resolved your problem. When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question from people who attend the church os Christ is: "The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant." So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was "under the Old Covenant" will try to use John 3:5 as "proof" that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized? You also have one other major problem to resolve. *You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel before it's too late.
When did I say that baptism with the Holy Spirit took place prior to Acts 2? Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). This was BEFORE Acts 2. In Ephesians 5:26, Paul said washing of water by the word. See the connection? In a passage on the means of Regeneration, the Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). No baptism mentioned there. So here Peter speaks of the use made of the Word of God in Regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the New Birth. Here Peter is saying the same as Jesus said in John 3:5. So John 3:5 does not refer to water baptism but to the need for spiritual cleansing. Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 4:10,14; 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). *This all fits together perfectly.
Where did Jesus mention baptism in John 3:5 or the context of John 3:5? That is your insertion. Simply reading this verse in context would give one no reason to assume Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus simply said "water" in John 3:5 (not baptism) just as Jesus said water and "living water" in John 4:10,14 and not baptism. By the time we get all the way down to verse 23, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over and Jesus and his disciples have already moved on to the land of Judea (vs. 22). Prior to verse 22, what did Jesus say in John 3:16 and John 3:18? *What happened to baptism there?
My argument is not that the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred prior to Acts 2 during the times of John 3:5, so your false accusation is dead. I'm not arguing that the Spirit was given in John 3:5 in contradiction to John 7:39, but the Holy Spirit is still the source of living water and the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. Compare "fountain of living water" in Jeremiah 2:13 with "fountain of living water" in John 4:14. Also read in Isaiah 12:3 - "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. *That's not water baptism and notice how Jesus connects this fountain of living water with everlasting life in John 4:14. Are you seeing the light yet or are you still determined to fight the truth?
I never said that baptism in this verse is Spirit baptism. Yet in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. So water baptism does not precede the gift of the Holy Spirit, as we see in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17,18 and Acts 15:8,9. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Amen! Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *That is crystal clear water boy. Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical, so the gift comes as a result of repentance/belief prior to water baptism, as I showed you in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17-18, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. What part of whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins/the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM* Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life don't you understand?
Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." So Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *Nowhere does the Bible say whoever is not baptized will be condemned. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? Children can see that baptism is not even mentioned in these 9 verses.
Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" belief and baptism are not inseparable. Jesus did not say whoever does not believe "and" is not baptized will be condemned, so your argument is dead. Jesus was simply talking about general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized.
Only in your mystical dreams. As Strong's said - "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. How long will you continue to fight the truth and remain in UNBELIEF? The water god cannot save you, but the Savior God can. You need to REPENT and place your faith EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation today and be saved. I will continue to pray for you.
Water baptism has no power to put one in the body of Christ. Plain ordinary H20 is not mystical water that magically accomplishes this. Your argument is still false no matter how many times you repeat it. There is ONE baptism in this Christian dispensation that puts one in the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism - 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by ONE SPIRIT we were ALL baptized into ONE body.. not water baptism. *Why do you ignore the words BY ONE SPIRIT in 1 Corinthians 12:13?
I have no problem to resolve. You have not resolved your problem. When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question from people who attend the church os Christ is: "The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant." So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was "under the Old Covenant" will try to use John 3:5 as "proof" that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized? You also have one other major problem to resolve. *You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel before it's too late.
When did I say that baptism with the Holy Spirit took place prior to Acts 2? Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). This was BEFORE Acts 2. In Ephesians 5:26, Paul said washing of water by the word. See the connection? In a passage on the means of Regeneration, the Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). No baptism mentioned there. So here Peter speaks of the use made of the Word of God in Regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the New Birth. Here Peter is saying the same as Jesus said in John 3:5. So John 3:5 does not refer to water baptism but to the need for spiritual cleansing. Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 4:10,14; 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). *This all fits together perfectly.
Where did Jesus mention baptism in John 3:5 or the context of John 3:5? That is your insertion. Simply reading this verse in context would give one no reason to assume Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus simply said "water" in John 3:5 (not baptism) just as Jesus said water and "living water" in John 4:10,14 and not baptism. By the time we get all the way down to verse 23, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over and Jesus and his disciples have already moved on to the land of Judea (vs. 22). Prior to verse 22, what did Jesus say in John 3:16 and John 3:18? *What happened to baptism there?
My argument is not that the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred prior to Acts 2 during the times of John 3:5, so your false accusation is dead. I'm not arguing that the Spirit was given in John 3:5 in contradiction to John 7:39, but the Holy Spirit is still the source of living water and the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. Compare "fountain of living water" in Jeremiah 2:13 with "fountain of living water" in John 4:14. Also read in Isaiah 12:3 - "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. *That's not water baptism and notice how Jesus connects this fountain of living water with everlasting life in John 4:14. Are you seeing the light yet or are you still determined to fight the truth?
I never said that baptism in this verse is Spirit baptism. Yet in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. So water baptism does not precede the gift of the Holy Spirit, as we see in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17,18 and Acts 15:8,9. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Amen! Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *That is crystal clear water boy. Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical, so the gift comes as a result of repentance/belief prior to water baptism, as I showed you in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17-18, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. What part of whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins/the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM* Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life don't you understand?
Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." So Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *Nowhere does the Bible say whoever is not baptized will be condemned. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? Children can see that baptism is not even mentioned in these 9 verses.
Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" belief and baptism are not inseparable. Jesus did not say whoever does not believe "and" is not baptized will be condemned, so your argument is dead. Jesus was simply talking about general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized.
Only in your mystical dreams. As Strong's said - "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. How long will you continue to fight the truth and remain in UNBELIEF? The water god cannot save you, but the Savior God can. You need to REPENT and place your faith EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation today and be saved. I will continue to pray for you.
I have no problem to resolve. You have not resolved your problem. When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question from people who attend the church os Christ is: "The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant." So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was "under the Old Covenant" will try to use John 3:5 as "proof" that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized? You also have one other major problem to resolve. *You still need to REPENT and BELIEVE the gospel before it's too late.
When did I say that baptism with the Holy Spirit took place prior to Acts 2? Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). This was BEFORE Acts 2. In Ephesians 5:26, Paul said washing of water by the word. See the connection? In a passage on the means of Regeneration, the Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). No baptism mentioned there. So here Peter speaks of the use made of the Word of God in Regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the New Birth. Here Peter is saying the same as Jesus said in John 3:5. So John 3:5 does not refer to water baptism but to the need for spiritual cleansing. Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 4:10,14; 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). *This all fits together perfectly.
Where did Jesus mention baptism in John 3:5 or the context of John 3:5? That is your insertion. Simply reading this verse in context would give one no reason to assume Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Jesus simply said "water" in John 3:5 (not baptism) just as Jesus said water and "living water" in John 4:10,14 and not baptism. By the time we get all the way down to verse 23, Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over and Jesus and his disciples have already moved on to the land of Judea (vs. 22). Prior to verse 22, what did Jesus say in John 3:16 and John 3:18? *What happened to baptism there?
My argument is not that the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred prior to Acts 2 during the times of John 3:5, so your false accusation is dead. I'm not arguing that the Spirit was given in John 3:5 in contradiction to John 7:39, but the Holy Spirit is still the source of living water and the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. Compare "fountain of living water" in Jeremiah 2:13 with "fountain of living water" in John 4:14. Also read in Isaiah 12:3 - "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation. *That's not water baptism and notice how Jesus connects this fountain of living water with everlasting life in John 4:14. Are you seeing the light yet or are you still determined to fight the truth?
I never said that baptism in this verse is Spirit baptism. Yet in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. So water baptism does not precede the gift of the Holy Spirit, as we see in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17,18 and Acts 15:8,9. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*
Amen! Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.. Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *That is crystal clear water boy. Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical, so the gift comes as a result of repentance/belief prior to water baptism, as I showed you in Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17-18, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. What part of whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins/the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also *BEFORE WATER BAPTISM* Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life don't you understand?
Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." So Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *Nowhere does the Bible say whoever is not baptized will be condemned. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? Children can see that baptism is not even mentioned in these 9 verses.
Since Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" belief and baptism are not inseparable. Jesus did not say whoever does not believe "and" is not baptized will be condemned, so your argument is dead. Jesus was simply talking about general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized.
Only in your mystical dreams. As Strong's said - "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration." As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. How long will you continue to fight the truth and remain in UNBELIEF? The water god cannot save you, but the Savior God can. You need to REPENT and place your faith EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation today and be saved. I will continue to pray for you.
Gal 3:27 baptism is what puts one into Christ, those baptized have put on Christ, the meaning being putting on clothing. If you put on a coat then you are in the coat. Those baptized have put on Christ therefore in Christ.
1 Cor 12:13 is the same ONE water baptism of Jn 3:5 and 1 Cor 1:14,16.
1 Cor 12:13 HOW does the spirit baptize? As Christ baptized in Jn 4:1,2. Christ nor the HS baptize anyone personally but baptized by giving authority to disciples to water baptize. The Spirit did not personally baptize the eunuch in acts 8 but sent Phillip to preach and water baptize the eunuch, Phillip water baptizing by the authority of the HS.
You do have a serious problem for at the time of Jn 3:5 there was no such thing as baptism with the HS for the spirit had not yet been given (Jn 7:39) for the first baptism with the HS was not until Acts 2 with the apostles.
Jn 3:5 occurred before the first baptism with the HS in Acts 2. So it cannot be any kind of spirit baptism so what kind of baptism is Jn 3:5?
The word water in Jn 3:5 is a reference to water baptism, Jn 3:23.
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13--------spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
The bible is its own best commentary and it tells me clearly that water of Jn 3:5 refers to water baptism. Cannot be any spirit baptism for that did not first occur until Acts 2.
Jn 3:5 'water' must refer to water baptism since there was no such thing as spirit baptism at the time for the spirit had not yet been given.
Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized for remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the HG"
The 'and' shows there is a difference between repentance and baptism and receiving the gift of the HG.
One receives the gift of the HS as a result of having been baptized. One is baptized as a result of having repented. Therefore the baptism in this verse cannot be any spirit baptism for reception of the HG is a future event as a result of and consequence of having already been baptized.
Did you or did you not above ignore the joining power of the conjunction 'and' to separate belief from baptism?
1 Cor 12:13 is the same ONE water baptism of Jn 3:5 and 1 Cor 1:14,16.
1 Cor 12:13 HOW does the spirit baptize? As Christ baptized in Jn 4:1,2. Christ nor the HS baptize anyone personally but baptized by giving authority to disciples to water baptize. The Spirit did not personally baptize the eunuch in acts 8 but sent Phillip to preach and water baptize the eunuch, Phillip water baptizing by the authority of the HS.
You do have a serious problem for at the time of Jn 3:5 there was no such thing as baptism with the HS for the spirit had not yet been given (Jn 7:39) for the first baptism with the HS was not until Acts 2 with the apostles.
mailmandan said:
When did I say that baptism with the Holy Spirit took place prior to Acts 2? Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). This was BEFORE Acts 2. In Ephesians 5:26, Paul said washing of water by the word. See the connection? In a passage on the means of Regeneration, the Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). No baptism mentioned there. So here Peter speaks of the use made of the Word of God in Regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the New Birth. Here Peter is saying the same as Jesus said in John 3:5. So John 3:5 does not refer to water baptism but to the need for spiritual cleansing. Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 4:10,14; 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). *This all fits together perfectly.
The word water in Jn 3:5 is a reference to water baptism, Jn 3:23.
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13--------spirit++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
The bible is its own best commentary and it tells me clearly that water of Jn 3:5 refers to water baptism. Cannot be any spirit baptism for that did not first occur until Acts 2.
Jn 3:5 'water' must refer to water baptism since there was no such thing as spirit baptism at the time for the spirit had not yet been given.
Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized for remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the HG"
The 'and' shows there is a difference between repentance and baptism and receiving the gift of the HG.
One receives the gift of the HS as a result of having been baptized. One is baptized as a result of having repented. Therefore the baptism in this verse cannot be any spirit baptism for reception of the HG is a future event as a result of and consequence of having already been baptized.
Did you or did you not above ignore the joining power of the conjunction 'and' to separate belief from baptism?
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Your arguments above have already been thoroughly refuted in post #97 and various other posts and once again, I did not say that baptism with the Holy Spirit took place prior to Acts 2. Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). This was BEFORE Acts 2. In Ephesians 5:26, Paul said washing of water by the word. See the connection? In a passage on the means of Regeneration, the Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). No baptism mentioned there. So here Peter speaks of the use made of the Word of God in Regeneration. The Word of God is the means by which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the New Birth. Here Peter is saying the same as Jesus said in John 3:5. So John 3:5 does not refer to water baptism but to the need for spiritual cleansing. Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (John 4:10,14; 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). *This all fits together perfectly. All I can do now is hope and pray that the seed which has been planted will one day be watered and lead you to saving faith in Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.