saved not by faith in the first place

[Hearer]

This is absolutely not true and makes the work of Christ conditional. When we believed we have been joined to the Lord (1Cor 6:16) and hid with Christ in God (Eph 3:9, Col 3:3). This is positional truth that you do not seem to understand. It is also positionally true that we are crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism and have been raised with Him (Rom 6:6, Col 2:12). All this points to being fully justified and made perfect and complete (Col 2:10) as a new creature in Christ (2Cor 5:17), created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24). God has done this for us through the finished work when we believed.

With this being positionally true for the believer God has to work this into our experience through the word, the cross and with much grace and patience. God is making us become what He has already made us to be. To think otherwise is to discredit the work that was accomplished by Christ on our behalf when He died not only for us but as us when He took our place on the cross.

how can it be positional? That is universalism and not all will come to Christ. Those who come to Christ are saved by grace unto belief and thus receiving faith.

1 Peter 4:10
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

1 Cor 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[VW]

baptism (rebirth) through the Holy Spirit and belief in Jesus are the two sides of the same coin. But if any try to have Jesus and even say they know him, without the Holy Spirit having baptised them into death and resurrection in flames and in water and by his blood then they are mistaken. That death does not come from mere professing Jesus nor doing mighty works. I think Spurgeon argued heavily against mere professors who have not been sanctified by regeneration.

I agree, it does not. but there is much we do not know about when we pass on from this existence. I believe that those who have confessed but have not been joined to Him face a death that joins them to Him.

It is hard to explain. I always go back to the saying, everyone who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and he who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

I believe that the confession is the start of belief in Him. Regeneration is making our salvation sure.

In Christ,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, it does not. but there is much we do not know about when we pass on from this existence. I believe that those who have confessed but have not been joined to Him face a death that joins them to Him.

It is hard to explain. I always go back to the saying, everyone who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and he who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

I believe that the confession is the start of belief in Him. Regeneration is making our salvation sure.

In Christ,

Regeneration is the result of our salvation. Before we are saved, we are DEAD because of sin. After our sin is forgiven (justification) we are made alive (regenerated) in Christ. Justification must precede regeneration because without justificaiton there can be no regeneration (life)

 

[Hearer]

I agree, it does not. but there is much we do not know about when we pass on from this existence. I believe that those who have confessed but have not been joined to Him face a death that joins them to Him.

It is hard to explain. I always go back to the saying, everyone who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and he who lives and believes in Me shall never die.

I believe that the confession is the start of belief in Him. Regeneration is making our salvation sure.

In Christ,

I believe you are right when you say: I believe that those who have confessed but have not been joined to Him face a death that joins them to Him. But also some who are joined to him already will suffer too because they are already joined to him and can give their suffering to Jesus sacrificially:

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Colossians 1:24: Sacrificial Service for Christ
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church

 

[Hearer]

Regeneration is the result of our salvation. Before we are saved, we are DEAD because of sin. After our sin is forgiven (justification) we are made alive (regenerated) in Christ. Justification must precede regeneration because without justificaiton there can be no regeneration (life)

how do we receive forgiveness? We ask! Which comes from repentance! repentance is from the renewal of the mind, which comes from the Spirit. We repent and then ask for forgiveness.

You are right if you say asking comes first. That is the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit (even if it just prompting) must come first. Just as Zacheus was first called by Jesus and then in the presence of grace repented. so we too repent in the presence of grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

how do we receive forgiveness? We ask! Which comes from repentance! repentance is from the renewal of the mind, which comes from the Spirit. We repent and then ask for forgiveness.

You are right if you say asking comes first. That is the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit (even if it just prompting) must come first. Just as Zacheus was first called by Jesus and then in the presence of grace repented. so we too repent in the presence of grace.

I am confused as to what this has to do with regeneration coming before or after justification.

Yes one must repent first. If we have not repented we can not have faith. The HS teaches us truth, we have the ability to accept or reject this truth. If we accept we repent. if we don't we will not.

 

[Scotth1960]

Regeneration is the result of our salvation. Before we are saved, we are DEAD because of sin. After our sin is forgiven (justification) we are made alive (regenerated) in Christ. Justification must precede regeneration because without justificaiton there can be no regeneration (life)

Dear eternally gratefull, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." Without faith, there can be no justification. You must show how a person who does not believe in God can be regenerated. A person is regenerated through faith. John 3:3,5,16.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Salvation is the result of God's mercy (Titus 3).

 

[Hearer]

I am confused as to what this has to do with regeneration coming before or after justification.

Yes one must repent first. If we have not repented we can not have faith. The HS teaches us truth, we have the ability to accept or reject this truth. If we accept we repent. if we don't we will not.

the natural man (the old man) is first. He cannot repent; his focus is on pleasure and the world. To become faithful he must become a new man, that newness of sight allows the renewal of the mind and the drawing alongside Jesus in his suffering.

The Spirit has to create in the person a new sight. Only those who are reborn have sight.

Perhaps the issue should be focused on rebirth. But I use the word regeneration to mean rebirth. A new beginning. The unregenerate is the old man who is blind. How does the blind see? By realizing he is blind and asking for help. You only know you are blind by the conviction of the Spirit. Always the spirit comes first.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the natural man (the old man) is first. He cannot repent; his focus is on pleasure and the world. To become faithful he must become a new man, that newness of sight allows the renewal of the mind and the drawing alongside Jesus in his suffering.

The Spirit has to create in the person a new sight. Only those who are reborn have sight.

Perhaps the issue should be focused on rebirth. But I use the word regeneration to mean rebirth. A new beginning. The unregenerate is the old man who is blind. How does the blind see? By realizing he is blind and asking for help. You only know you are blind by the conviction of the Spirit. Always the spirit comes first.

Sorry I must disagree.

natural man who understands he is in danger will do what he can to get out of danger. A natural man who understand something he is doing is hurting him can stop doing that thing. A natural man can have morals, even though he does not trust the God who planted these morals in his heart (romans 1)

A natural man can repent (actually he must) because if he does not. he is doomed forever. No one is going to stand in front of God and say, Well hey God, You did not regenerate me so I have no chance to be saved, Or You did not chose me so I had no chance even if I wanted to be saved. They will stand in front of God admitting they sinned, Admitting God showed himself to them, And admitting they did not listen to the HS who God sent to help them. As paul says in romans 1. The will have no excuse whatsoever. God has revealed himself to them. But they chose instead to reject the love of God to fulfill the desires of their flesh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear eternally gratefull, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." Without faith, there can be no justification. You must show how a person who does not believe in God can be regenerated. A person is regenerated through faith. John 3:3,5,16.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Salvation is the result of God's mercy (Titus 3).

Yes. Faith must precede regeneration. Without it there is only death

 

[Red33]

how can it be positional? That is universalism and not all will come to Christ. Those who come to Christ are saved by grace unto belief and thus receiving faith.

1 Peter 4:10
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

1 Cor 12
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Perhaps you need to understand experiential truth in relationship to positional truth. If believers undestood positional truth they would not believe and have trouble with certain doctrines that involve the nature of God and the finished work of Christ.

 

[VW]

I believe you are right when you say: I believe that those who have confessed but have not been joined to Him face a death that joins them to Him. But also some who are joined to him already will suffer too because they are already joined to him and can give their suffering to Jesus sacrificially:

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Colossians 1:24: Sacrificial Service for Christ
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church

Absolutely. "Take up your cross and follow Me."

In Christ,

 

[VW]

It as about life. Eternal life now, in His resurrection, which must follow death, death to our old life in His death on the cross.

This is not something that is just accepted and then it is ours. This is something that happens to us spiritually.

 

[Hearer]

Perhaps you need to understand experiential truth in relationship to positional truth. If believers undestood positional truth they would not believe and have trouble with certain doctrines that involve the nature of God and the finished work of Christ.

positional truth is when we are right in God's eyes. This comes from our having been reborn. We do not experience the move of the spirit because it has gone where it wanted to. Unseen.

while those who profess Jesus would dearly love to say that they have been reborn, only the spirit knows where it has gone.

Then the best we can see is whether the person produces good fruit. Then the harvest has come

 

[VW]

Positional means that I believe it and accept it as fact, and that makes it so.

This is not a doctrine of scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches us to "abide in Jesus Christ." This is experiential. We are changed in reality and in fact. we become new beings, not just those who have heard but have not in fact been changed.

Oh, but I am changed, it says so in the bible. That does not make the change in you real.

One life, a dead life that is in enmity with God is exchanged for a true life that is alive in Jesus Christ, in absolute fact. This is something that actually happens to us. It is not mystical, it is spiritual.

Behold, old things are passed away, all things have become new.

 

[Hearer]

Positional means that I believe it and accept it as fact, and that makes it so.

This is not a doctrine of scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches us to "abide in Jesus Christ." This is experiential. We are changed in reality and in fact. we become new beings, not just those who have heard but have not in fact been changed.

Oh, but I am changed, it says so in the bible. That does not make the change in you real.

One life, a dead life that is in enmity with God is exchanged for a true life that is alive in Jesus Christ, in absolute fact. This is something that actually happens to us. It is not mystical, it is spiritual.

Behold, old things are passed away, all things have become new.

hmmI think the legalists want to claim positional as a legal standing. They believe that Jesus justifes them legally posiyionally when they profess faith. This is half the story and a doubtful one at that because Jesus did not come to justify (positionally) but to free us regardless. To set the prisoners free.

That freedom is a spiritual freedom that is not based on our positional jusitification but on the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ.

Justification is Paul's atempt at explaining the goodness of God to set us free. But when he was called he was first chastised and then transformed and then justified. The Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Jesus) stopped him in his tracks and convicted him of blindness and by blindness.

 

[VW]

hmmI think the legalists want to claim positional as a legal standing. They believe that Jesus justifes them legally posiyionally when they profess faith. This is half the story and a doubtful one at that because Jesus did not come to justify (positionally) but to free us regardless. To set the prisoners free.

That freedom is a spiritual freedom that is not based on our positional jusitification but on the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ.

Justification is Paul's atempt at explaining the goodness of God to set us free. But when he was called he was first chastised and then transformed and then justified. The Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Jesus) stopped him in his tracks and convicted him of blindness and by blindness.

They call it a legal standing because then they can avoid the cross. No need for it, it has already happened.

I always remember that the word of the cross is the power of God to us who are being saved.

In Christ,

 

[Hearer]

They call it a legal standing because then they can avoid the cross. No need for it, it has already happened.

I always remember that the word of the cross is the power of God to us who are being saved.

In Christ,

I agree. The cross is ours to bear too and by suffering we complete the work of the cross

Colossians 1:24-27

Sacrificial Service for Christ


24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hmmI think the legalists want to claim positional as a legal standing. They believe that Jesus justifes them legally posiyionally when they profess faith. This is half the story and a doubtful one at that because Jesus did not come to justify (positionally) but to free us regardless. To set the prisoners free.

Actually it is the opposite. A legalist is trying to earn his way to heaven through a list of rules and regulations which they think earn them the right to be saved.

Jesus did not come to justify? Wow. so we are all doomed forever? Because if jesus did not come to justify, none of us have any hope!

That freedom is a spiritual freedom that is not based on our positional jusitification but on the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ.

Justification is Paul's atempt at explaining the goodness of God to set us free. But when he was called he was first chastised and then transformed and then justified. The Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Jesus) stopped him in his tracks and convicted him of blindness and by blindness.

Thats interesting. If we have not been justified (declared innocent, or forgiven) we have no hope. we are dead in our sin still looking for hope. Also, the HS can do nothing but convict us of sin, because we have not yet repented.

And where do you get biblically that the HS stopped paul in his tracks concerning justifiication??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree. The cross is ours to bear too and by suffering we complete the work of the cross

Colossians 1:24-27

Sacrificial Service for Christ


24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church

You can suffer all you want. If your not saved, your suffering for no good but your own purposes.

The Cross took our suffering for us. So we could be set free from the thing which binds us (sin) If we are not free, we are not saved.

Now that does not mean we will not suffer after we are saved. We are in a spiritual battle. We will suffer, whether we want to or not.