Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

PlainWord · Oct 26, 2016

Actually, none of these people ever give a pre-trib timing. They all give a post-trib timing. You need to understand the difference between "tribulation" and "wrath."

The tribulation of Israel AKA, "the Great Tribulation" as spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24:21 only applies to Israel. This is why only those in Judea are to flee. If you look at the companion passage in Luke 21:20 you see that it is Jerusalem that is surrounded by armies. The whole world is not surrounded by armies.

The tribulation of the church is indeed world wide and has been happening since there were Christians. This tribulation is not a singular event, it lasts until the Second Coming.

We are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH, however, we are APPOINTED TO TRIBULATION. Jesus actually promised us tribulation and nowhere does He tells us that the Church on earth just prior to the attack upon Israel is He coming to take the Church to heaven. I know this is what you believe but it is not taught. Sorry.

You can attach all the links and arguments you want but you still have not provided a single passage where any return of Christ can be located before the attack upon Israel.

Quasar92 · Oct 26, 2016

PlainWord said:

Baloney! The timing for the pre-trib rapture of the Church was last posted in my 320! Review that part of it giving you the precise timethis event will take place:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

Verse 3 is confirmed in verse 7, where Paul wrote, "he will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way," or raptured.

Quasar92

bluto · Oct 26, 2016

This is nonsense quasar and it is based on a misunderstanding of your interpretation of the verses you mentioned to support your view. You quote 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 as the point or timing of the so-called rapture despite the fact that at the Apostle Paul at vs4 comments on the perseverance of the saints and at vs5 this is an indication of God's righteous judgment so we are worthy of the kingdom of God and at vs6 how God will repay with affliction those who are afflicting us and then in culminates at vs7 when Paul explains when we who are afflicted will get "RELIEF/REST.

When will this relief/rest come? When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And again at vs10 repeats the coming of Jesus Christ and how the saints will be glorified at His coming. At vs11 Paul is praying "ALWAYS" that our God may count you worthy of your calling IN ORDER FOR YOU TO BE RAPTURED?

Then in chapter 2 Paul again repeats the coming of the Lord and tips us off as to what to look for before His coming at vs3, "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come UNLESS the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." Vs8, And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will SLAY WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH AND BRING TO AN END BY THE APPEARANCE OF HIS COMING AFTER WE ARE RAPTURED OF COURSE?"

Again, and I have said it on numerous occasions you can't just insert the so-called pre-trib rapture anywhere you please? And notice 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then brethren, STAND FIRM and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." Why are we told to stand firm if we not going to be here? Secondly, I hear all this talk about not following the traditions of men because "Oh I don't follow traditions of men, I have the Holy Spirt to teach me, not some men with their tradtions etc."

You also said this quasar, "Verse 3 is confirmed in verse 7, where Paul wrote, "he will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way," or raptured. You just inserted the rapture by assuming that just because the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, "zap" this means we are raptured? And for you information why does it escape you notice that at vs6,7 the Holy Spirit is "RELEASING HIS POWER, HE IS NOT LEAVING" in order for the so-called rapture to occur.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

PlainWord · Oct 26, 2016

It seems you have plenty of detractors on that other site (CARM) as well. Maybe I should follow you over there and join the chorus against your false doctrine? You cite a lot of verses. I cite them too. The problem is none of them provide a pre-trib timing. They are either silent as to the timing relative to the attack on Israel or they provide a post-trib timing.

You claim the next thing to happen on the prophetic calendar is the Rapture, right? So if the Wailing Wall (sanctuary fortress) is defiled ending prayers, will you admit you were wrong? Actually, that isn't even the next thing to happen but it does happen before the Abomination of Desolation and before the great Tribulation of Israel. So if you see the wailing wall defiled, will you change your tune? Not asking for an apology, just an admission.

For those of us who are actually in tune with the real sequence of events, prophesy has awaken and things are being fulfilled right now!! You are missing them because you are blinded by your false visions. Rev 13 is well under way. Islamic forces are coalescing behind the Beast of the Sea. 9 of the 10 horns have clearly formed. The Beast of the Sea is under attack and showing (so far at least) that "nobody can successfully wage war against it." 1/3 of the "light" has pretty much gone out (4th trumpet) as Christianity has pretty much been obliterated in the Muslim world. The 4th seal is open. You are missing all of it.

garee · Oct 26, 2016

Attack on the Israel of God as an inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ according to the new name he named his people (Christian) after the reformation? Or a Jew outwardly according to the flesh? The sign seekers that do not walk by faith according to the scriptures? What kind of Jew?

.

The wall that was and still is used for an idol lost its meaning when the veil was rent. It signaled Christ has come in the flesh.

Christian, which simply means; “residents of the Holy city of God” as those prepared as the bride of Christ, the new heavenly Jerusalem. Christian is the new name God named His people they are considered the temple of God. We go out into the world not into a temple made with human hands, as if God was served by human hands and his kingdom was of this world.

PlainWord · Oct 26, 2016

Not sure what you are saying but I'm talking about the GT of Israel (Mat 24:21) which is a literal Islamic invasion of Israel and is clearly yet future.

I'm not talking about the veil of the temple either. I am talking about this wall:

This is what's left of the sanctuary fortress. See Dan 11:31.

I agree with this, I think? Worded a little funny. Clearly 2/3 of Israel will be cut off but 1/3 will be saved when they see the Lord and mourn realizing that He was the Messiah. These will call out on His name and be saved and become every bit the Christian and Bride that the Church is.

Quasar92 · Oct 26, 2016

And just when does your above assessment of Jesus return take place? The Scriptures please! FYI, my post 322 is not "nonsense," as you would allege! Yours is what is nonsense! You clearly did not study the full context of what I wrote that clearly reveals the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church!

Review the following link I posted in 322 by Thomas Ice, PhD:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.htmII

In addition, it is 2 Thess.2:7 that confirms verse 3, which is how I wrote it, i.e. the ORIGINAL translations are as follows:

The theme of the entire passage from verse 1 through 8, is verse 1.

2 Thess.2:1 "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,"

2 Thess.2:1 is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17.

1 Thess.4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

2 Thess.2:3 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the departure [rapture of the Church] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,"

2 Thess.2:7 "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he [the Church] is taken out of the way." [raptured].

[Parenthesis mine]

322 is fully endorsed by the following:

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.[/FONT]

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Oct 26, 2016

For whatever the reason, the link in the above 327 does no work and I was unable to correct it in the five minute edit limit. I have reposted it below for you, bluto: Read it this time.

The Thomas Ice Collection

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Oct 26, 2016

PlainWord said:

The above is an example of a convoluted assessment from an amateur article of fiction out of Readers Digest. Yjr wailing wall fortress has nothing at all to do with end times events. As for those who opposed me at CARM for my views about the pre-trib rapture of the Church, of course there were those opposed, as well as those who agreed. Just like Jesus ministry. Some believed, and some didn't. Before CARM crashed, I had 20,000 posts and 3,436 reps! So there were a few who agreed with me! Review the following for the proper chronological order of end times events:

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.

9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.

Quasar

Ahwatukee · Oct 26, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Hello Quasar92,

As much as I would like that verse to say that the "apostasia" is referring to the living believers being caught up, I cannot. To do so would be to greatly bend the word to make it mean that. The only other place that it is used, is in Acts 21:21 which is a departure from the law of Moses:

" They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs."

"Departure" is just one of the possible translations of apostasia, but it cannot be used to mean departing into the wild blue yonder. The only way that it could be used would be a departure from the faith, not being caught up.

Furthermore, it is not a matter of how it was used in previous translations, but what the actual Greek word is defined as:

===========================================

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

===========================================

Previously, the Holy Spirit used the word "Harpazo," to convey the idea of being "caught up" into the air which he used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven, when Philip was "caught away" by the Spirit and when the Male Child is "snatched up" to God's throne. If meaning here in 2 Thes.2:3 was to depart up into the sky to meet the Lord, the Spirit would have used "Harpazo" and not "apostasia," for it cannot be used to convey the meaning of being snatched up.

I would also remind you that, God is the author of his word and not men. That said, God is not going to allow men to falsely translate his word. Now, the following verses 2 Thes.2:5-8 demonstrate that the restrainer must be taken out of the way before the full force of sin can be unleashed and that man of lawlessness be revealed, which would refer tot he Holy Spirit being removed and the church with Him and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. So, I do believe that the church must be removed prior to the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, is revealed. However, as much as I have tried, I have never been able to force the word "apostasia" to convey the meaning of departing into the air, but only a departure from the faith.

PlainWord · Oct 26, 2016

Fortunately prophesy isn't dependent upon popular opinion. God isn't taking a survey, He's gonna work His plan, whether you like it or not. Remember those with Gideon? Many more failed the test than passed it. God went with those who did not lap the water up like dogs.

Let me show you my scripture support. We'll start in reverse order with the Second Coming and work backwards.

Dan 12:11:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. [SUP]13 [/SUP]“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Conclusion: Christ returns at day 1,335 from when the Daily Sacrifice is taken away and 45 days after the Abomination of Desolation is set up. Daily Sacrifices (day 0) + 1,290 A of D + 45 Christ returns.

Dan 12: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Conclusion: This happens at day 1,335. This is the resurrection for both wicked and righteous. It is AKA, the Second Resurrection.

Dan 12:1: “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.

Conclusion: This is the Wrath. It happens, according to 2 Thes 1, "When Christ is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels."

Dan 11: [SUP]45 [/SUP]And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Conclusion: This is the death of the Man of Sin, destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming. It also happens on Day 1,335.

Dan 11: [SUP]40 [/SUP]“At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. [SUP]41 [/SUP]He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. [SUP]42 [/SUP]He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

Conclusion: This is the Great Tribulation. The Man of Sin attacks many countries in the middle east but also Israel. This starts at Day 1,290.

Dan 11: [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods...

Conclusion: This happens in coordination with the Abomination of Desolation being set up. This is when they say that Christ is here and to go out per Mat 24:23-26.

Dan 11: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

Conclusion: This begins when the sanctuary fortress is defiled and daily prayers are taken away by either the Palestinians or the United Nations doing the bidding of the UN. This is day ZERO on the 1,335 Christ Watch Clock.

wolfwint · Oct 26, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Quasar92,

As much as I would like that verse to say that the "apostasia" is referring to the living believers being caught up, I cannot. To do so would be to greatly bend the word to make it mean that. The only other place that it is used, is in Acts 21:21 which is a departure from the law of Moses:

" They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs."

"Departure" is just one of the possible translations of apostasia, but it cannot be used to mean departing into the wild blue yonder. The only way that it could be used would be a departure from the faith, not being caught up.

Furthermore, it is not a matter of how it was used in previous translations, but what the actual Greek word is defined as:

===========================================

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

===========================================

Previously, the Holy Spirit used the word "Harpazo," to convey the idea of being "caught up" into the air which he used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven, when Philip was "caught away" by the Spirit and when the Male Child is "snatched up" to God's throne. If meaning here in 2 Thes.2:3 was to depart up into the sky to meet the Lord, the Spirit would have used "Harpazo" and not "apostasia," for it cannot be used to convey the meaning of being snatched up.

I would also remind you that, God is the author of his word and not men. That said, God is not going to allow men to falsely translate his word. Now, the following verses 2 Thes.2:5-8 demonstrate that the restrainer must be taken out of the way before the full force of sin can be unleashed and that man of lawlessness be revealed, which would refer tot he Holy Spirit being removed and the church with Him and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. So, I do believe that the church must be removed prior to the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, is revealed. However, as much as I have tried, I have never been able to force the word "apostasia" to convey the meaning of departing into the air, but only a departure from the faith.

,

Hi Quasar92, I suppose Ahwatukee is right. The word Harpazo is 15 times in the NT. Only 5 times it is mentioned when a person is brougth to another place. caught up ore caught away 1. Acts 8,39; 2. Corinth. 12,2; 2.Corinth 12,4; 1. Thess.4,17(2times);
The word apostasia is different.

Posted · Oct 26, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Quasar92,

As much as I would like that verse to say that the "apostasia" is referring to the living believers being caught up, I cannot. To do so would be to greatly bend the word to make it mean that. The only other place that it is used, is in Acts 21:21 which is a departure from the law of Moses:

" They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs."

"Departure" is just one of the possible translations of apostasia, but it cannot be used to mean departing into the wild blue yonder. The only way that it could be used would be a departure from the faith, not being caught up.

Furthermore, it is not a matter of how it was used in previous translations, but what the actual Greek word is defined as:

===========================================

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

"646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

===========================================

Previously, the Holy Spirit used the word "Harpazo," to convey the idea of being "caught up" into the air which he used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven, when Philip was "caught away" by the Spirit and when the Male Child is "snatched up" to God's throne. If meaning here in 2 Thes.2:3 was to depart up into the sky to meet the Lord, the Spirit would have used "Harpazo" and not "apostasia," for it cannot be used to convey the meaning of being snatched up.

I would also remind you that, God is the author of his word and not men. That said, God is not going to allow men to falsely translate his word. Now, the following verses 2 Thes.2:5-8 demonstrate that the restrainer must be taken out of the way before the full force of sin can be unleashed and that man of lawlessness be revealed, which would refer tot he Holy Spirit being removed and the church with Him and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. So, I do believe that the church must be removed prior to the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, is revealed. However, as much as I have tried, I have never been able to force the word "apostasia" to convey the meaning of departing into the air, but only a departure from the faith.

"I do believe that the church must be removed prior to the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, is revealed"

When do you think this happens?
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

PlainWord · Oct 27, 2016

Quasar,

One simple question for you. If the Wailing Wall is defiled or destroyed or something happens to it that causes the end of prayers by the Jews, will you admit that there is no pre-trib rapture? If not, what event must you see to realize you are wrong? The Man of Sin being revealed?

PlainWord · Oct 27, 2016

Posted said:

Right now.

Quasar92 · Oct 27, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Greetings Ahwatukee,

Your views contradict the historical record pertaining to the translation history and application of of 2 Thess.2:3. Which is the major reason why so many are led astray by those who altered the original translation for the purpose of satisfying their own personal belief system. The following comes from the studies of Thomas Icw, PhD, and fully endorsed by the others, listed at the bottom of my post.

Review the following link I posted in 322 by Thomas Ice, PhD, fully supporting it, below:

The Thomas Ice Collection

Translation History of apostasia and discessio in 2 Thess.2:3: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

The theme of the entire passage from verse 1 through 8, is verse 1, which is about a rapture of the Church, not aapostasy or a falling away.

2 Thess.2:1 "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,"

2 Thess.2:1 is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17.

1 Thess.4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

2 Thess.2:3 "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the departure [rapture of the Church] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,"

2 Thess.2:7 "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he [the Church] is taken out of the way." [raptured].

[Parenthesis mine]

322 is fully endorsed by the following:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed

Quasar92
.

Quasar92 · Oct 27, 2016

PlainWord said:

Whatever may happen to the wailing wall in Jerusalem, will not take place until AFTER the Church has been CAUGHT UP to Jesus, in the clouds of the sky, from where He will take them all to heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thess.2-3 and 7-8. Somewhere from the beginning of the seven year tribulation that follows the departure of the Church, a third temple will be built which will probably replace the wailing wall. FYI, there is nothing for me to make any apology for! Capiche!

Quasar92

PlainWord · Oct 27, 2016

Quasar92 said:

No I do not Capiche

. But to summarize, you agree the wailing wall will see no harm before you are safely in heaven. We shall see. As for the third temple, Christ was the third, and last, temple.

Quasar92 · Oct 27, 2016

PlainWord said:

If tiy read my quote, you posted, the answer to your pointless obsession with the wailing wall, was answered!

Quasar92

PlainWord · Oct 28, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Pointless obsession?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Just what do you think the "FORTRESS" of the sanctuary is where the people pray? The Temple would be the sanctuary. If the temple was defiled, Daniel would have just said "sanctuary." The fact that Daniel specifically tells us that the fortress is defiled should be a big clue to you.

You do realize that the word, "sacrifices" is in italics, don't you? Did they teach you what that means in Bible school? In case they didn't, it means the word isn't in the original text. It was added. So remove "sacrifice" and you have the "daily" being taken away. What do the Jews do daily at the Fortress or wall? They pray.

Daniel wrote this 2,500 years ago. He probably had no idea what it meant as he probably never envisioned a destroyed temple with a small portion of the wall left where people would pray for almost 2,000 years. Heck, you are here today and you have no clue either.

If you are a Muslim and you want to anger the Jews, what site would you desecrate? Wake up Quasar, the coffee is on.

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member