Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[TMS]

There is no real verse only assumption for pre trib rapture.
As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is NO SINGLE verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Pre-Trib’ers FORCE ASSUMPTIONS on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect” (who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”) must refer to “those individuals who are saved” AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. (how are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the“Church” and the Holy Spirit according to Pre-Trib’ers have been removed?)
Can you find one single instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, or the Apostle John made any statement to the effect that the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years PRIOR to to Jesus comes in Glory. Isn’t that a bit strange if the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is the correct one?

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is no real verse only assumption for pre trib rapture.
As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is NO SINGLE verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Pre-Trib’ers FORCE ASSUMPTIONS on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect” (who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”) must refer to “those individuals who are saved” AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. (how are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the“Church” and the Holy Spirit according to Pre-Trib’ers have been removed?)
Can you find one single instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, or the Apostle John made any statement to the effect that the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years PRIOR to to Jesus comes in Glory. Isn’t that a bit strange if the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is the correct one?

Hello TMS, (part 1)

You and Mr. Walvoord are correct in that, there is no single verse that says "it happens right here!" However, it is by comparing and cross-referencing scripture that we are able to conclude that the gathering of the church will take place pre-trib.

First of all, it is important to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two individual events. It is also imperative to understand that in between right now and when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that the wrath of God must take place. The book of Revelation tells us the purpose of the book right in the very beginning, which is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show his servants that things that must soon take place."

The things that must soon take place, as declared in Rev.1:19, 4:1, are the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and everything leading up to the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age. Regarding this, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are all referred to as God's wrath as announced at the 6th seal in Rev.6:16, at the 7th trumpet in Rev.11:18 and the bowl judgments in Rev.15:1.

All that said, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer that coming time of God's wrath, i.e. believers will not be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, and therefore, neither will they be here during the beasts reign. Regarding this coming wrath, scripture states the following:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10

The conclusion is that God is not going to put his church through his wrath and that because Jesus already suffered that wrath for us. Now whenever there is good, solid scriptural support, there are always those who, instead of taking to heart the scriptural facts, because they have adopted their position regarding any given Biblical topic, they will instead do all that they can to distort or circumvent those scriptures to protect their positions. This is exactly what they do with the information regarding the timing of the gathering of the church, as well as the truth regarding God's wrath. The truth of the matter is that, God's wrath begins at the opening of that 1st seal and continues through the bowls, with Christ returning sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

 

[wolfwint]

Yes pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine.. It is an escapist delusion.. preach this delusion to the Christians of Syria who are being slaughtered and see what kind of reception you will receive...

Adstar, persecution christians have from beginning and this is said from the Lord for those who follow him. That we in the west can nearly live in peace is not normal and we can be thankful for that. But i dont know exectly how it is in US, but in germany persecution in a slowly way. It is not allowed to say something openly against homosexualism, if you defend creation, then you will treat as a silly person; If you something openly against the islam you treat as islamophob; Yes brothers and sisters are facing daily persecution in other parts of the world!!!

But the great tribulation is something much different, a time which the world have not seen before.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew. 24,21.



If i am not wrong, then according the context Jesus speaks to jews and not to christians (the world wide bodyof christ)
because today the message of the gospel is not the gospel of the kingdom of christ, as it will be preached then to those which have the promise of the kingdom, the folk of Israel.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Matthew 22,14;
and it seems that an angel will preach this gospel during the great tribulation:
And I saw another angel fly in midheaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev. 14, 6+7

It is sad said you call this a false doctrine. Does it lead anybody away from the Lord? Does it lead anybody away to trust the Lord?

The contradiction it seems was the case!! When Paul wrote this in his 2. letter to the Thess.:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of the Lord is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2. Thess. 2.1-3



But these future questions should not cause for discussion among christians. I accept if you believe something different and dont call you a false teacher! Because you support not what i believe and hope!

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is no real verse only assumption for pre trib rapture.
As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is NO SINGLE verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Pre-Trib’ers FORCE ASSUMPTIONS on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect” (who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”) must refer to “those individuals who are saved” AFTER the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place. (how are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the“Church” and the Holy Spirit according to Pre-Trib’ers have been removed?)
Can you find one single instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, or the Apostle John made any statement to the effect that the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years PRIOR to to Jesus comes in Glory. Isn’t that a bit strange if the Pre-Trib Rapture prophetic viewpoint is the correct one?

Hello TMS (Part 2)

Another important clue which demonstrates that the church is removed from the earth prior to the 1st seal being opened is as follows:

Within Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated "Church" is found and within those same chapters the word "Hagios" translated "saints" is never used. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word Hagios/Saints is used and the word Ekklesia/Church is not found. This is not a coincidence, but is by design. Its purpose is to alert the reader that there is a distinction being made between Church and Saints, with the church missing from the picture from chapter 4 onward.

Who are the saints? This group is identified in Revelation 7:9-17 as those saints who come out of the great tribulation period. Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. The very fact that the elder is even introducing this group demonstrates that they are not the church. In further support of this, when the elder asks John who they are, he says that he defers the question back to the elder because he doesn't know who they are. The elder then tells John that these are they who have come out of the great tribulation from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentile believers. This group are those who are referred to saints from chapter 5:8 onward.

Another proof that the church is gathered and in heaven during the time of God's wrath can be found in Rev.19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. "

In Rev.19:6-8, we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14, we see those following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean that she will have received at the wedding. Regarding this, in an attempt to discredit the idea of those on white horses as being the church, they will proclaim them as being angels. The problem with this is that in reference to the Lord's return to the earth, the scriptures tell us who this group is who is with him, as found in Rev.17:14:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Needless to say the reference to the "called, chosen and faithful followers" would not be a proper designation for angels, but is referring to the redeemed. So, according to scripture, it is the bride who will already be in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and who will receive her robes of righteousness while there and will be wearing those robes of righteousness while riding on white horses and following Christ out of heaven to end the age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine.. It is an escapist delusion.. preach this delusion to the Christians of Syria who are being slaughtered and see what kind of reception you will receive...

Hello Adstar,

In your post above, you are making the same mistake that many do by not recognizing that there is a distinction between common trials and tribulations which come at the hands of mankind and the powers darkness vs. the coming wrath of God. The apostles and the first century church suffered those common trials and tribulation from the hands of men and not the wrath of God. In the same way, those Christians of Syria that you are referring to are also not suffering God's wrath, but the wrath of men and the powers of darkness. The reason that many make this mistake is because they don't understand the purpose of this coming wrath and its severity, which will be in fulfillment of the following:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,

[FONT=&quot]declares the [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]​

I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,

declares the Lord." - Zeph.1:1​

Its not "an escapist delusion," but is having faith in the promise of the Lord, that he went to prepare those dwelling places for us in the Father's house and that he is coming back to take us with him, that where he is we may be also - John 14:1-3. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of his return to keep his promise by gathering the church.

 

[ZacharyB]

A far worse mistake is to go your whole life believing you can somehow lose your salvation instead of trusting what Jesus said

How are you doing with your reconciling of the OSAS NT verses with the anti-OSAS NT verses?
When you have finally finished doing this, please inform us of your conclusions.
We'll see if they match mine.

 

[ZacharyB]

Not all "tribulation saints" will die, neither those who live for Christ during the millenial reign.
So, what happens to them?

IMO, surviving born-from-above believers will be raptured at the last trumpet on the last day
at Jesus' second coming, just before the terrible wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers.

 

[ZacharyB]

Through all ages the greatest witness for God was to lay down your life for Him.
To die for your belief, to Love God more than your life is a huge witness for Jesus.

Witness Syrian Christians being beheaded TODAY for their faith!
But, this couldn't happen to Americans ... dey are special, right?
many and lols.

P.S. My latest info suggests that America will be destroyed nuclearly
BEFORE the antichrist comes on the scene with his great tribulation.
This is more than just a wild possibility.

 

[ZacharyB]

Common trials and tribulation is not the same as
the wrath of God which will be unprecedented and will span that last seven years.

Are you confusing the wrath of the antichrist with the wrath of God?
IMO, the wrath of God does not last 7 years.

 

[ZacharyB]

Is there a verse that says that Gods people will be taken before the tribulations come.

No, there is not.
But, Matthew 24 clearly says Jesus comes to collect His elect AFTER the tribulations of those days.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are you confusing the wrath of the antichrist with the wrath of God?
IMO, the wrath of God does not last 7 years.

No sir! There is no wrath of the antichirst. There is the common trials and tribulations at the hands of men and the powers of darkness and there is the coming wrath of God, where within that same time period will be the acts of the antichrist. People have created the wrath of Satan and the wrath of men in order to circumvent the coming wrath of God in order to fit their belief.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment (wrath of God) Will begin when that 1st seal is opened, for it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, there is not.
But, Matthew 24 clearly says Jesus comes to collect His elect AFTER the tribulations of those days.

Matt.24 is not speaking about the collection of the church, but of those who make it through that seven years alive. The angels will be collecting living people in their mortal bodies, which will be made up of both Israel and Gentile believers. Both of these groups will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

The church on the other hand will be returning with Christ when he returns to the earth to end the age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

IMO, surviving born-from-above believers will be raptured at the last trumpet on the last day
at Jesus' second coming, just before the terrible wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers.

The problem with your theory is that Jesus doesn't return to the earth to end the age until after the wrath of God has completed. Of this there is not doubt and that because scripture demonstrates that at the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment Jesus will have not yet returned as can be deduced below:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are two separate events. Not discerning this is the reason for your error.

 

[garee]

But the great tribulation is something much different, a time which the world have not seen before.For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world “to this time”, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew. 24,21.

I see that a little differently. Seeing it seems to be talking about seasons of time.

It would seem that; not since the beginning of the world “to this time “ indicated they were already in the tribulation, such that world had not seen before, marking the last days.

How would you say for certainty we are not in that tribulation, a time which the world had not seen before, marked by the reformation, the veil being rent indicating a change was coming.. Revealing the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God came in the flesh for a short season. This is seeing God is not a man as us as a creature, but remains without mother or father, beginning of days and end of Spirit life as the eternal faithful Creator?

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the “time” of reformation. Heb 9:8

To what previous time period was the work of God working in the affairs of men restored to? I think it was restored to the period of Judges when there was no outward representation, and men walked by faith and not by sight like that of the surrounding Pagan nations seeing the Elders became jealous and no longer wanted Him reigning as King from heaven by faith and gave He gave them over to do what they should not for a season..

Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1Sa 8:4

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Garee,

But the great tribulation is something much different, a time which the world have not seen before.For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world “to this time”, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew. 24,21.

I see that a little differently. Seeing it seems to be talking about seasons of time.

Jesus makes if very clear that the time of the great tribulation begins from the setting up of the abomination in the holy place, which according to Dan.9:27 takes place in the middle of the seven years, with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age 3 1/2 years later. The last half of the seven years is "the tribulation, the great one."

 

[garee]

Hello Adstar,

In your post above, you are making the same mistake that many do by not recognizing that there is a distinction between common trials and tribulations which come at the hands of mankind and the powers darkness vs. the coming wrath of God. The apostles and the first century church suffered those common trials and tribulation from the hands of men and not the wrath of God. In the same way, those Christians of Syria that you are referring to are also not suffering God's wrath, but the wrath of men and the powers of darkness. The reason that many make this mistake is because they don't understand the purpose of this coming wrath and its severity, which will be in fulfillment of the following:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,

declares the ​

Lord​

. ​

I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,

declares the Lord." - Zeph.1:1​

Its not "an escapist delusion," but is having faith in the promise of the Lord, that he went to prepare those dwelling places for us in the Father's house and that he is coming back to take us with him, that where he is we may be also - John 14:1-3. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of his return to keep his promise by gathering the church.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven it will come to end on the last day ..People are still living in a body of death, showing He corrupted the whole creation. It was corrupted by reason of them violating His principles in the garden.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven it will come to end on the last day ..People are still living in a body of death, showing He corrupted the whole creation. It was corrupted by reason of them violating His principles in the garden.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

That is a different type of wrath which is not the wrath that the OT saints and apostles prophesy of. The coming wrath of God will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. Between the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, the fatalities will equal approx. 4.5 billion people and is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the bowl judgments.

 

[popeye]

The worst mistake anyone can make is to assume that the pre-tribulation rapture is correct.
This disastrous error can mean the loss of BOTH of one’s lives … physical and spiritual both.
Satan is the most incredible liar and deceiver, so trust in what the Scriptures clearly say.
A lot of money has been made by ticking the ears of unsuspecting believers in the church.
But, you are responsible before Almighty God to teach the Truth about this false doctrine.


A far worse mistake is to go your whole life believing you can somehow lose your salvation instead of trusting what Jesus said.

"worst mistake"

...and yet we are told to watch and wait.

But you,in your wisdom tell us Jesus coming,and waiting is "the worst mistake"

I have THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED POST TRIB RAPTURE.

there is NO RESURRECTION in rev 20.

I have debunked it. Quite handily.

In fact, I have PROVEN post trib rapture is impossible.

 

[popeye]

No, there is not.
But, Matthew 24 clearly says Jesus comes to collect His elect AFTER the tribulations of those days.

Post trib rapture talking point.

Keep reading.

It says they are collected FROM HEAVEN,,,BY ANGELS.

You post tribs are tribulation centered.

Consequently,you miss God's purposes by a mile.

Look at the core of your teaching. What di you see ?

Everything but Jesus.

You are not waiting for the bride groom. You are waiting for the ANTI Christ...THE FALSE CHRIST.

NOW,WHO IS IN " the worst mistake"

Factor in the bride,the groom,the wedding,the escape verses,the promise at the last supper,and the church in heaven,and get circumspect.

Are you even aware,there is a myriad of verses debunking your position,and NOT ONE POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSE?

Your op has NO POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSES,NOT ONE.

100% conjecture.

Some copy and paste most likely.

 

[hornetguy]

these discussions always amaze me... to quote an infamous woman... "what difference does it make?"