Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine
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M
What is happening is that those who believe and teach the pre trib rapture are trying to separate Jesus coming with supposition only. There are NO bible verses to support that Jesus will come for His church then later for more of His church! ALL BELIEVERS ARE HIS CHURCH AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN! To split hairs over what comprises His church is , well, go figure. NO bible will support this second and third coming. There is no difference between jew and gentile.
Those returning are souls of the saints in heaven.
Where does Paul say a third man-made temple on earth is built? He doesn't, does he?
Where does John report back the measurements of the Temple in Rev 11? He doesn't does he? Does John use the phrase "temple of God" anywhere else in Revelation? Where is the temple in the other passages where used in Revelation?
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”
Where is the temple located in the above passages from John, from Revelation? Let the Bible interpret itself. Same author, same book, same phrase.
You are the first "Christian" I have ever met that believes God will give into the Jews belief that His Son wasn't the Messiah and that His blood was insufficient requiring reverting back to the blood of bulls and rams. Maybe the problem is with your interpretation? I've already explained to you what the Temple of Zech 6 and Eze 40 were. Its your problem that you reject what I've taught you over your desire for a re-institution of animal sacrifices.
Where does Paul say a third man-made temple on earth is built? He doesn't, does he?
Where does John report back the measurements of the Temple in Rev 11? He doesn't does he? Does John use the phrase "temple of God" anywhere else in Revelation? Where is the temple in the other passages where used in Revelation?
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”
Where is the temple located in the above passages from John, from Revelation? Let the Bible interpret itself. Same author, same book, same phrase.
You are the first "Christian" I have ever met that believes God will give into the Jews belief that His Son wasn't the Messiah and that His blood was insufficient requiring reverting back to the blood of bulls and rams. Maybe the problem is with your interpretation? I've already explained to you what the Temple of Zech 6 and Eze 40 were. Its your problem that you reject what I've taught you over your desire for a re-institution of animal sacrifices.
M
You are thrying to make it seem like everywhere in the bible the second coming is mentioned are different events. What about in the old testament? Are those mentions a different coming too. Like in Isaiah:66:15: "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." or this one Isaiah:34:7&8: "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." Or how about this one Malachi:4:1&2: "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall." This one Da:12:1&2: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." this one Revelation:1:7: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." or this is one that proves Jesus is coming the same way He left, it says nothing about any kind of taking away the church, Acts:1:11: "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." ARE THESE ALL SEPARATE EVENTS TOO? How many second comings are you trying to pull out of the hat of traditional opinion? The bible teaches that there is only ONE second coming. All biblical references to Jesus coming are the same event.
Hello masmpg,
Forgive me, but your on-going error, is not recognizing that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. When Christ descends to gather the church, he is only coming to meet us in the air. The resurrection will take place and then those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them, where the whole group will be taken back to the Father's house. This event will not be seen by the rest of the world, but it will be realize after it happens.
On the other hand, when the Lord returns to the earth to end that age, and we with him, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. Stop thinking of the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age as being the same event.
Forgive me, but your on-going error, is not recognizing that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. When Christ descends to gather the church, he is only coming to meet us in the air. The resurrection will take place and then those who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them, where the whole group will be taken back to the Father's house. This event will not be seen by the rest of the world, but it will be realize after it happens.
On the other hand, when the Lord returns to the earth to end that age, and we with him, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. Stop thinking of the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age as being the same event.
Just for your information ahwatyjee I ran across the following site a few minutes ago regarding the timeing of the "rapture." And if you have noticed my main point since I joined these forums on this particular issue is "when" will the rapture/second coming of Christ occur. I have continued to ask the question of where do you guys "insert" the rapture of the church based on the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 and the "end of the age" at vs3.
The Church, Tribulation and Rapture Please tell me what you think?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The Church, Tribulation and Rapture Please tell me what you think?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
P
Just for your information ahwatyjee I ran across the following site a few minutes ago regarding the timeing of the "rapture." And if you have noticed my main point since I joined these forums on this particular issue is "when" will the rapture/second coming of Christ occur. I have continued to ask the question of where do you guys "insert" the rapture of the church based on the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 and the "end of the age" at vs3.
The Church, Tribulation and Rapture Please tell me what you think?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The Church, Tribulation and Rapture Please tell me what you think?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The difference between the two camps,pre and post,is that we are able to explore every verse.
You guys,on the other hand,are forbidden,for some bizarre reason,from our verses.
That is the difference.
Rev 14 destroys mspg's deal,as well as yours,and you guys will not go there.
Game
Set
Match
P
Wow,you actually ignored " like manner" to force fit a doctrine.
Of course coming as a groom for his bride is totally different than coming WITH HIS BRIDE IN BATTLE FORMATION.
Yes,we can see many places it is two separate events.
Lets overview.
He CAME as a baby
He left
He CAME as aresurrected savior
He left
He CAME to Paul
He left
HE CAME to John
He left
He COMES for his bride
THEY LEAVE
He COMES FOR ripe fruit (the Jewish bride),rev 14,DURING THE GT.
THEY LEAVE
THEY COME,WITH HIM ON WHITE HORSES,AT THE END OF THE GT.
Now look at all this that you guys are somehow forbidden from.
Man,what a shame.
Of course coming as a groom for his bride is totally different than coming WITH HIS BRIDE IN BATTLE FORMATION.
Yes,we can see many places it is two separate events.
Lets overview.
He CAME as a baby
He left
He CAME as aresurrected savior
He left
He CAME to Paul
He left
HE CAME to John
He left
He COMES for his bride
THEY LEAVE
He COMES FOR ripe fruit (the Jewish bride),rev 14,DURING THE GT.
THEY LEAVE
THEY COME,WITH HIM ON WHITE HORSES,AT THE END OF THE GT.
Now look at all this that you guys are somehow forbidden from.
Man,what a shame.
P
Only one disciple put his head on Jesus' breast.
The bible says"...that disciple whom Jesus loved..."
Under your restrictions Jesus did not love the other disciples.
(you jettison overlapping dynamics)
But beyond that,your restrictions also remove obvious meaning from the virgin parable,and the wedding feast parable.
We see Two gatherings to fill the table.
So many depths of truth you are forbidding.
The 4 parts of harvest being critical to understand the human harvest of the planet
CRITICAL
...I stand alone in this critical dynamic,harvest,and this is the SUBJECT MATTER TO THIS THREAD.
I find that appalling.
Harvest,but lets COMPLETELY IGNORE that OT component.
Well,aaaaalllllllrrrighteeeee.
Lol
The bible says"...that disciple whom Jesus loved..."
Under your restrictions Jesus did not love the other disciples.
(you jettison overlapping dynamics)
But beyond that,your restrictions also remove obvious meaning from the virgin parable,and the wedding feast parable.
We see Two gatherings to fill the table.
So many depths of truth you are forbidding.
The 4 parts of harvest being critical to understand the human harvest of the planet
CRITICAL
...I stand alone in this critical dynamic,harvest,and this is the SUBJECT MATTER TO THIS THREAD.
I find that appalling.
Harvest,but lets COMPLETELY IGNORE that OT component.
Well,aaaaalllllllrrrighteeeee.
Lol
It would seem both of those camps are forbidden from looking at the Amil position, that uses the word thousand to represent a unknown in many parables to include the parable in Revelation 20.
The second and final resurrection will be on the last day, the same day as the final judgement. We are in the last days. Nothing else has to be fulfilled .it is an evil generation that looks for a sign no sign is given save the sign of Jonas (three days and nights of suffering .It was fulfilled when Christ said ; it is finished.
Christ will come as a thief in the night . We continue to walk by faith (the unseen).
P
I remember the "it is finished" thread.
Amazing,Jesus had not died,or resurrected,or descended,or ascended,or presented his blood to the father.
NOT ONE SINGLE COMPONENT OF PASSOVER WAS COMPLETED.
BUT everyone on this board erroneously thinks salvation was COMPLETED before Jesus died.
I know of no such error so basic and blatant,except when shown,ignorance prevails.
Amazing,Jesus had not died,or resurrected,or descended,or ascended,or presented his blood to the father.
NOT ONE SINGLE COMPONENT OF PASSOVER WAS COMPLETED.
BUT everyone on this board erroneously thinks salvation was COMPLETED before Jesus died.
I know of no such error so basic and blatant,except when shown,ignorance prevails.
Rev 14 starts off showing Christ in heaven with the 144K. They were redeemed or saved being firstfruits. They are Jews, redeemed by Jesus. Mount Zion is spiritual. If Jesus were back on earth, wouldn't we all be with Him?
If we look back to Rev 7 we see: “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Therefore, the 144K have to be sealed before the 1st and 2nd trumpets sound in Rev 8 because those trumpets affect the "earth, seas and trees":
Isaiah 44:23
Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, And glorified Himself in Israel.
Do mountains sing? The 144K were/are singing in Rev 14 on Mount Zion.
Do forests sing? Do trees sing? Of course not. Therefore this passage is spiritual.
The 144K of Jacob being firstfruits means salvation first came to them, from every tribe of Israel BEFORE salvation came to the Gentiles, which we see later. Rev 7 is a picture of all who will be saved, first the Jews, then the Gentiles. I think too many of us in the Church forget what Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews." They are saved first, and shown first. The Gentiles are saved second, and shown second.
So what is Mount Zion symbolic of?
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels..
1 Peter 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Thus, Mount Zion is the collection of all who are saved. It is our spiritual home where Christ is chief cornerstone and we, it's individual stones. Jesus is with us always!! He goes with us and we with Him, wherever He goes.
The first angel proclaims the Gospel to all the world. We, the Church, proclaim the Gospel to all the world. We have been doing this since Pentecost.
The second angel proclaims the end of Babylon (which is idol worship, false worship, especially ISLAM).
The third angel proclaims the wrath of God to come upon those who have worshiped the Beast, the false religion harlot. These heathen Gentile idol worshipers will experience the Wrath of God at His coming.
Those having been faithful to Christ and His commandments, having died and suffered in the Lord will be blessed and their rewards, the fruits of their labors, will follow them into the everlasting life.
When all is said and done and the days of this old earth end, Christ appears to gather the harvest. The righteous inherit the Kingdom and the wicked depart in eternal torment.
This beautiful picture of the rapture in Rev 14:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Matches perfectly this beautiful picture from 1 Thes 4:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Both passages describe the same event Popeye. One rapture, one resurrection at the end of days.
If we look back to Rev 7 we see: “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Therefore, the 144K have to be sealed before the 1st and 2nd trumpets sound in Rev 8 because those trumpets affect the "earth, seas and trees":
Isaiah 44:23
Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, And glorified Himself in Israel.
Do mountains sing? The 144K were/are singing in Rev 14 on Mount Zion.
Do forests sing? Do trees sing? Of course not. Therefore this passage is spiritual.
The 144K of Jacob being firstfruits means salvation first came to them, from every tribe of Israel BEFORE salvation came to the Gentiles, which we see later. Rev 7 is a picture of all who will be saved, first the Jews, then the Gentiles. I think too many of us in the Church forget what Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews." They are saved first, and shown first. The Gentiles are saved second, and shown second.
So what is Mount Zion symbolic of?
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels..
1 Peter 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
Thus, Mount Zion is the collection of all who are saved. It is our spiritual home where Christ is chief cornerstone and we, it's individual stones. Jesus is with us always!! He goes with us and we with Him, wherever He goes.
The first angel proclaims the Gospel to all the world. We, the Church, proclaim the Gospel to all the world. We have been doing this since Pentecost.
The second angel proclaims the end of Babylon (which is idol worship, false worship, especially ISLAM).
The third angel proclaims the wrath of God to come upon those who have worshiped the Beast, the false religion harlot. These heathen Gentile idol worshipers will experience the Wrath of God at His coming.
Those having been faithful to Christ and His commandments, having died and suffered in the Lord will be blessed and their rewards, the fruits of their labors, will follow them into the everlasting life.
When all is said and done and the days of this old earth end, Christ appears to gather the harvest. The righteous inherit the Kingdom and the wicked depart in eternal torment.
This beautiful picture of the rapture in Rev 14:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Matches perfectly this beautiful picture from 1 Thes 4:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Both passages describe the same event Popeye. One rapture, one resurrection at the end of days.
P
Well,at least you are not placing the rapture after the millennium. That's an improvement.
But you,like so many,view end times through a tribulation prism.
If you view through heavens prism,it is through the wedding,bride,bridegroom prism.
Without that prism,the accompanying dynamics never enter the picture.
Yes rev 14 is a gathering,during the Gt.
NOT THE MAIN HARVEST of 1thes 4.
Look at the parable of the wedding supper,the virgin parable,the 4 parts to harvest,the time of the gentiles ended,the fact only Jews are sealed,the innumerable number in heaven with glorified bodies,and many other dynamics you have never explored.
(99% of your study is a Muslim sidetrack)
If you ever "plug in" to the wedding/groom dynamic,you will see my verses come together.
Right now,I am sure you can't see it.
But you are getting a tad closer.
But you,like so many,view end times through a tribulation prism.
If you view through heavens prism,it is through the wedding,bride,bridegroom prism.
Without that prism,the accompanying dynamics never enter the picture.
Yes rev 14 is a gathering,during the Gt.
NOT THE MAIN HARVEST of 1thes 4.
Look at the parable of the wedding supper,the virgin parable,the 4 parts to harvest,the time of the gentiles ended,the fact only Jews are sealed,the innumerable number in heaven with glorified bodies,and many other dynamics you have never explored.
(99% of your study is a Muslim sidetrack)
If you ever "plug in" to the wedding/groom dynamic,you will see my verses come together.
Right now,I am sure you can't see it.
But you are getting a tad closer.
Two more temples yet to be built with sacrificial system renewed:
Which was your excuse for a reply to my quote:
>>>Just keep posting PW, and the trash just keeps piling up, with your exercise in the futility of interpreting from allegorical fiction. First of all, there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and in 2 Thess,2:3 and 7-8! Supposing you explain to me, how come, the Church returns with Jesus from their marriage in heaven, the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in verse 14, if there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church you falsely claim! Those returning are souls of the saints in heaven.<<<
2 Thess.2:4 is prophecy pertaining to the third temple Israel will build to serve them during the coming seven year tribulation,, that the Man of lawlessness, the AC, will set the abomination of desolation up in and declare himself to be God, genius!
None of the above allegorical imagination has a single thing to do with what the prophetic Scriptures are saying:
Rev.11:I "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
The above passage was posted to refute your eisegesis that there will be no more temples built. You do not have the gift of prophecy, as has been clearly illustrated time after time, PW!
The four verses you posted, in Rev.15 and 16 pertain to God's temple in heave, PW. It has nothing whatever to do with the stone building temples built by Solomon, the first, Zerubbabel. the second, the third yet to be built, recorded in Dan.9:27; Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14; 2 Thess.2:4; Rev.11:1=2, and the fourth one, yet to be built by Jesus, in Zech.6:12-13, described in EZ.40-27! Review the following for your edification:
The third and fourth temples:
Israel's Third and Fourth Temples
Which was your blind reply to my quote: >>>Then you can explain to me why God has proclaimed the builder of His fourth temple during the !,000 year reign of Chr9st, will be Jesus Himself, as recorded in Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47.. The dimensions of that temple do not correspond in any way to those of the first or second of Israel's temples! And yes, the Bible makes it clear, there will be a renewal of the animal sacrificing system, as you find there, as well as in Zech.14...<<<
Israel's failure to receive Jesus as their Messiah during His first advent, will be corrected during His 1,000 year reign on earth, in Rev.20:6. Jesus will teach Israel and all their future generations born during that 1,000 years, what their seven feasts and festivals were all about. Which He fulfilled all of Himself, in what each of them represented! Where Israel failed during OT times, they will succeed during Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth! Which is also the purpose of the participants of the first resurrection, who will be made priests of God and of Christ, for 1,000 years, as recorded in Rev.20:6.
There is nothing at all wrong with my interpretation of the Scriptures, as I have been professionally trained and have MANY YEARS of experience over no experience of yours, except what you think you have. In addition to the fact that I have not only full Scriptural support for my views, but also many trained and qualified theologian expositors as well! Would you like me to post that listings for you, PW Don't you ever get tired of shooting yourself in the foot?
Quasar92
Which was your excuse for a reply to my quote:
>>>Just keep posting PW, and the trash just keeps piling up, with your exercise in the futility of interpreting from allegorical fiction. First of all, there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and in 2 Thess,2:3 and 7-8! Supposing you explain to me, how come, the Church returns with Jesus from their marriage in heaven, the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in verse 14, if there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church you falsely claim! Those returning are souls of the saints in heaven.<<<
2 Thess.2:4 is prophecy pertaining to the third temple Israel will build to serve them during the coming seven year tribulation,, that the Man of lawlessness, the AC, will set the abomination of desolation up in and declare himself to be God, genius!
None of the above allegorical imagination has a single thing to do with what the prophetic Scriptures are saying:
Rev.11:I "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
The above passage was posted to refute your eisegesis that there will be no more temples built. You do not have the gift of prophecy, as has been clearly illustrated time after time, PW!
The four verses you posted, in Rev.15 and 16 pertain to God's temple in heave, PW. It has nothing whatever to do with the stone building temples built by Solomon, the first, Zerubbabel. the second, the third yet to be built, recorded in Dan.9:27; Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14; 2 Thess.2:4; Rev.11:1=2, and the fourth one, yet to be built by Jesus, in Zech.6:12-13, described in EZ.40-27! Review the following for your edification:
The third and fourth temples:
Israel's Third and Fourth Temples
Which was your blind reply to my quote: >>>Then you can explain to me why God has proclaimed the builder of His fourth temple during the !,000 year reign of Chr9st, will be Jesus Himself, as recorded in Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47.. The dimensions of that temple do not correspond in any way to those of the first or second of Israel's temples! And yes, the Bible makes it clear, there will be a renewal of the animal sacrificing system, as you find there, as well as in Zech.14...<<<
Israel's failure to receive Jesus as their Messiah during His first advent, will be corrected during His 1,000 year reign on earth, in Rev.20:6. Jesus will teach Israel and all their future generations born during that 1,000 years, what their seven feasts and festivals were all about. Which He fulfilled all of Himself, in what each of them represented! Where Israel failed during OT times, they will succeed during Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth! Which is also the purpose of the participants of the first resurrection, who will be made priests of God and of Christ, for 1,000 years, as recorded in Rev.20:6.
There is nothing at all wrong with my interpretation of the Scriptures, as I have been professionally trained and have MANY YEARS of experience over no experience of yours, except what you think you have. In addition to the fact that I have not only full Scriptural support for my views, but also many trained and qualified theologian expositors as well! Would you like me to post that listings for you, PW Don't you ever get tired of shooting yourself in the foot?
Quasar92
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Hey Popeye,
No actually, I put the millennium in heaven. Christ is on the throne now. He is reigning with souls. Souls are in heaven.
That is actually what you pre-tribbers do, always talking about flying away before it starts and never realizing the Church is always in Tribulation. But, the Great Tribulation is for Israel.
You can't start the wedding until the entire bride is together.
The Great Tribulation is over before the Harvest just as Jesus tells us in Mat 24. If you read back in Rev 14 you see that Babylon has fallen, is fallen. "Babylon" is the religion of the Beast and those following her. They are the ones who attack Israel. They are the cause of the Great Tribulation attack upon Israel.
The Harvest of Rev 14 is identical to the one of 1 Thes 4 and Mat 13. Just one Harvest, Just one resurrection, just one rapture.
Keep watching the news. They are just getting started. They are not a sidetrack. Do you still see Rome rising up and invading Israel?
No actually, I put the millennium in heaven. Christ is on the throne now. He is reigning with souls. Souls are in heaven.
That is actually what you pre-tribbers do, always talking about flying away before it starts and never realizing the Church is always in Tribulation. But, the Great Tribulation is for Israel.
You can't start the wedding until the entire bride is together.
The Great Tribulation is over before the Harvest just as Jesus tells us in Mat 24. If you read back in Rev 14 you see that Babylon has fallen, is fallen. "Babylon" is the religion of the Beast and those following her. They are the ones who attack Israel. They are the cause of the Great Tribulation attack upon Israel.
The Harvest of Rev 14 is identical to the one of 1 Thes 4 and Mat 13. Just one Harvest, Just one resurrection, just one rapture.
Keep watching the news. They are just getting started. They are not a sidetrack. Do you still see Rome rising up and invading Israel?
Q,
This statement renders the Blood of Christ worthless. I cannot and will not agree with this statement. God does not give in to the Jews desire for a third temple and Levitical worship. They must give into the Messiah and Grace.
The blood of rams and bulls only covered sin waiting for the Messiah to take away their sins. Therefore bringing back the rams and bulls will never be sufficient to take their sins away as you imply with this view. Your view requires Christ to die a second time. Is that what you think? What Bible schools did you attend again and do they teach this nonsense too?
Paul teaches what the third temple is. It's here now and you are part of it (assuming you are saved). You, at 92 years old, have yet to learn about the spiritual temple of which we all form with Christ as our Chief Cornerstone. This lesson is completely lost on you!! You seem to recognize that we all make up "the Church" even though we attend different churches. This is good. Try to learn this below fact as it might help you.
"the CHURCH" (all individual members dead or alive) = the TEMPLE of GOD.
Therefore, the Man of Sin (2 Thes 2) comes from "the Church." He is also called, "the Son of Perdition." Who else was called the Son of Perdition? Judas perhaps??? If you guessed Judas you would be right for once. Was Judas part of the 12 disciples, the founders of the Church? BINGO correct again!! You see the enemy always hides in plain sight.
You are doing good Quasar, you are starting to get it. Oops, I answered those questions for you. I doubt you are getting it. We are told that we are NOT OF THE WORLD, but everything you say pertains to the World and not our spiritual home. Sad.
This statement renders the Blood of Christ worthless. I cannot and will not agree with this statement. God does not give in to the Jews desire for a third temple and Levitical worship. They must give into the Messiah and Grace.
The blood of rams and bulls only covered sin waiting for the Messiah to take away their sins. Therefore bringing back the rams and bulls will never be sufficient to take their sins away as you imply with this view. Your view requires Christ to die a second time. Is that what you think? What Bible schools did you attend again and do they teach this nonsense too?
Paul teaches what the third temple is. It's here now and you are part of it (assuming you are saved). You, at 92 years old, have yet to learn about the spiritual temple of which we all form with Christ as our Chief Cornerstone. This lesson is completely lost on you!! You seem to recognize that we all make up "the Church" even though we attend different churches. This is good. Try to learn this below fact as it might help you.
"the CHURCH" (all individual members dead or alive) = the TEMPLE of GOD.
Therefore, the Man of Sin (2 Thes 2) comes from "the Church." He is also called, "the Son of Perdition." Who else was called the Son of Perdition? Judas perhaps??? If you guessed Judas you would be right for once. Was Judas part of the 12 disciples, the founders of the Church? BINGO correct again!! You see the enemy always hides in plain sight.
You are doing good Quasar, you are starting to get it. Oops, I answered those questions for you. I doubt you are getting it. We are told that we are NOT OF THE WORLD, but everything you say pertains to the World and not our spiritual home. Sad.
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What am I going to do with you??? Seriously. Zechariah was an OT prophet and wrote in OT terms so that those in his day could relate. I am going to highlight and underline a phrase below. Any REAL scholar would immediate see this phrase and allegorize the passage.
The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them.
The "POTS" are LIKE the bowls before the alter, they are NOT the bowls before the altar because this tradition of sacrifice is no longer valid. But a 5-6th century BC Jew would not understand the new way to worship, not even possibly comprehending that the Law would be replaced by Grace, just as you aren't understanding the metaphors here.
Sacrifice = Worship
The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them.
The "POTS" are LIKE the bowls before the alter, they are NOT the bowls before the altar because this tradition of sacrifice is no longer valid. But a 5-6th century BC Jew would not understand the new way to worship, not even possibly comprehending that the Law would be replaced by Grace, just as you aren't understanding the metaphors here.
Sacrifice = Worship
It's time to get out of eschatology, PW, because it was not a gift given to you! All you are doing is making a charade of the Scriptures. Review the following for your edification:
A common objection to the consistent literal interpretation of Bible prophecy is found in Ezekiel's Temple vision (Ezek. 40-48). Opponents argue that if this is a literal, future Temple, then it will require a return to the sacrificial system that Christ made obsolete since the prophet speaks of "atonement" (kiper) in Ezekiel 43:13, 27; 45:15, 17, 20. This is true! Critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ as presented in Hebrews 10. Hank Hanegraaff says that I have "exacerbated the problem by stating that without animal sacrifices in the Millennium, Yahweh's holiness would be defiled. That, for obvious reasons, is blasphemous." He further says that such a view constitutes a return "to Old Covenant sacrifices."[1]
"Is it heretical to believe that a Temple and sacrifices will once again exist," ask John Schmitt and Carl Laney? "Ezekiel himself believed it was a reality and the future home of Messiah. Then, it becomes not heresy to believe that a Temple and sacrifices will exist; rather, it is almost a heresy to not believe this, especially because it is a part of God's infallible word. The burden on us is to determine how it fits-not its reality."[1] At least four other prophets join Ezekiel in affirming a sacrificial system in a millennial Temple (Isa. 56:7; 66:20-23; Jer. 33:18; Zech. 14:16-21; Mal. 3:3-4), which supports a literal and thus futurist understanding of Ezekiel.
New Covenant Sacrifices
We do not believe that reinstituting sacrifices in a future dispensation will be a return to the Mosaic system of the Old Covenant. The Mosaic Law has forever been fulfilled and discontinued through Christ (Rom. 6:14-15; 7:1-6; 1 Cor. 9:20-21; 2 Cor. 3:7-11; Gal. 4:1-7; 5:18; Eph. 2-3; Heb. 7:12; 8:6-7, 13; 10:1-14). The millennium will be a time in which Israel's New Covenant will become the ruling jurisdiction (Deut. 29:4; 30:6; Isa. 59:20-21; 61:8-9; Jer. 31:31-40; 32:37-40; 50:4-5; Ezek. 11:19-20; 16:60-63; 34:25-26; 36:24-32; 37:21-28; Zech. 9:11; 12:10-14). Therefore, it will not be a time of returning to the old but of going forward to the new. "For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also" (Heb. 7:12).
The new millennial Law will contain a mixture of Mosaic-type laws with totally new non-Mosaic laws not found in the 613, under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant. Jesus the Messiah will be physically present instead of the Shechinah glory presence in conjunction with the ark of the covenant; a new priestly order from the sons of Zadok (Ezek. 40:46; 43:19; 48:11) instead of the Levites; a new Temple measuring one mile square (Ezek. 40:48-41:26) instead of the much smaller Solomonic model. Randall Price tells us:
The previous section concerning the design of the altar of burnt offering (43:13-27) introduced the reinstitution of the sacrificial service, which continues in the subsequent chapters (44-46) with regulations for the Levitical priests and the various sacrifices to be offered for Israel's atonement. Although detailed instructions concerning the institution of the sacrificial system appear for the first time in these chapters, frequent references to the practice have been made since the beginning of the prophecy (40:38-43, 46-47; 41:22; 42:13-14). Moreover, these references are not incidental, but intrinsic to the entire presentation of Ezekiel's vision in chapters 40-48. For example, there is a statement concerning the sacrificial system in every chapter but one (chapter 47). These references include: "new moons and Sabbaths . . . all the appointed feasts" (Ezek. 44:24; 45:17; 46:3, 11-12), "daily offerings" (Ezek. 46:13-14), "burnt offerings, grain offerings, and the libations" (Ezek. 45:17; 46:2, 4, 11-15), "blood sacrifices" (Ezek. 43:20), an "altar" for burnt offering (Ezek. 40:47; 43:13-27), an "altar" for incense offering (Ezek. 41:22), "boiling places" to "boil the sacrifices of the people" (Ezek. 46:23-24); a "Zadokite" priesthood to "offer Me the fat and the blood" (Ezek. 40:46; 42:13-14: 43:19; 44:15-16; 48:11), a "Levitical" priesthood to "slaughter the burnt offering" (Ezek. 44:10-11; 48:22). Furthermore, the offerings are stated to be for "a sin offering" (Ezek. 43:22, 25; 44:24, 29) and to "make atonement" (Ezek. 43:20; 45:25). Since the sacrifices and sacrificial personnel are so prominent throughout these chapters, the treatment of the sacrifices cannot be avoided.[2]
Why a Temple and Sacrifices?
The purpose for a Temple throughout Scripture has been to establish a location upon earth-which is under the curse of sin-for the presence of God that reveals through its ritual God's great holiness. God's plan for Israel includes a relation to them through a Temple since He wants to dwell in the midst of His people. Currently the church is God's spiritual Temple made of living stones (1 Cor. 3:16-17; Eph. 2:19-22). The millennium will return history to a time when Israel will be God's mediatory people but will also continue to be a time in which sin will be present upon the earth. Thus, God will include a new Temple, a new priesthood, a new Law, etc., at this future time because He will be present in Israel and still desires to teach that holiness is required to approach Him. This is contrasted with the fact that no Temple will exist in eternity (Rev. 21:22) because God and the Lamb are the Temple since there will be no sin in heaven, thus no need for ritual cleansing.
The painstaking detail in Ezekiel 40-48 is similar to the instruction given to Moses for building of the Tabernacle and then to others for building the Solomonic Temple. Such detail is meaningless unless taken literally as were the Tabernacle and first two Temples. If the detail was intended to be symbolic, the symbols are never explained, as is usually the case with genuine biblical symbolism. Because no textual basis exists for a non-literal interpretation, those attempting such explanations become subjective in their many and various guesses about the meaning of the passage.
It must be remembered that the Levitical sacrifices of the Mosaic system are said by the Bible to "make atonement" as well (for example, Lev. 4:20, 26, 31, 35, etc.). If these sacrifices in the past actually atoned for the people's sins, which, of course, they did not, then they would be equally blasphemous in light of Christ's perfect sacrifice. Hebrews 10:4 says, "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Furthermore, there would have been no need for Christ's once and for all atoning sacrifice if these past acts did the job.
So what do both past and future sacrifices accomplish if they don't actually remove sin? These sacrifices provide ritual cleansing of the priests, sanctuary, and utensils. Only Christ's sacrifice on the cross actually removes one's sin. Jerry Hullinger provides a solution that:
. . . deals honestly with the text of Ezekiel, and in no way demeans the work Christ did on the cross. This study suggests that animal sacrifices during the millennium will serve primarily to remove ceremonial uncleanness and prevent defilement from polluting the temple envisioned by Ezekiel. This will be necessary because the glorious presence of Yahweh will once again be dwelling on earth in the midst of a sinful and unclean people.
Because of God's promise to dwell on earth during the millennium (as stated in the New Covenant), it is necessary that He protect His presence through sacrifice . . . It should further be added that this sacrificial system will be a temporary one in that the millennium (with its partial population of unglorified humanity) will last only one thousand years.[3]
Critics of future millennial sacrifices seem to assume that all sacrifices, past and future, always depict Christ's final sacrifice for sin. They do not! There were various purposes for sacrifice in the Bible. Many of the sacrifices under the Mosaic system were purification rituals. This is why atonement can be said in the past to be effective, yet still need Christ's future sacrifice, because many of the sacrifices did atone ceremonially, cleansing participants and objects in Temple ritual. In Ezekiel 43:20 and 26, the atonement is specifically directed at cleansing the altar in order to make it ritually clean. The other uses of atonement also refer to cleansing objects so that ritual purity may be maintained for proper worship (Ezek. 45:15, 17, 20).
A Memorial
Many who take a literal interpretation of these sacrifices also believe that they will serve as a memorial to Christ's once-for-all atoning work. Yet, critics believe this to be a flawed conclusion. Support for a future memorial aspect can be seen in the fact that our current observation of the Lord's Supper includes this aspect (1 Cor. 11:23-26). Under the Mosaic system-which looked ahead-many times various Temple sacrifices are specifically called "memorials" (Ex. 30:16; Lev. 2:2, 9; 5:12; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15, 18, 26). Such terminology could in fact be the basis for our current church age understanding of remembering the Lord's death adopted by Paul. The Mosaic memorial aspect clearly supports viewing future Temple sacrifices in this way, as millennial believers look back upon Christ's sacrificial provision.
Conclusion
T
he presence and purpose of millennial sacrifices neither diminish the finished work of Christ, nor violates the literal interpretation of these prophetic passages. Nothing in Ezekiel 40-48 conflicts with the death of Christ or New Testament teaching at any point. The supposed contradictions between a literal understanding of Ezekiel and New Testament doctrine evaporate when examined specifically and harmonized. Although there will be millennial sacrifices, the focus of all worship will remain on the person and work of the Savior. The millennial Temple and its ritual will serve as a daily reminder of fallen man's need before a Holy God and lessons about how this same God lovingly works to remove the obstacle of human sin for those who trust Him. Maranatha!
Quasar92
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