Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear

Atwood · Nov 9, 2014

Water immersion adds no one to Christ's Body. Spirit Baptism does! Water Baptism began & continued before there was any Body of Christ, any Church. 1 Cor 12:13 tells us that Spirit baptism is what puts the believer into the Body of Christ.

In the NT there is no water baptism except immersion in water. So it would appear that what you papists do with water is not even mentioned in Scripture. And there is no application of such water to babies in the NT either.

Water immersion is symbolic of the reality that saves: Christ's death, burial, & resurrection. Playing with babies in the water is symbolic of nonsense.

Water immersion must be symbolic, for salvation is by faith/belief/trust in the Savior alone, over & over:

Eph

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO POPE]

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rev 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father . . . . 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO RCC]

Atwood · Nov 9, 2014

Dogknox said:

Show me where anyone of them recognized the Bishop of Rome as the pope.

I am a catholic, a member of the Body of Christ.
Christ is my head, not the papa.
You are a Romanist.
There is no RCC in the Bible.
There is no pope in the Bible.

There is salvation by faith alone in the Bible.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believe, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down

or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

kepha · Nov 9, 2014

Atwood said:

That would be pointless, you don't accept any of the early Church Fathers as a valid testimony. I doubt you accept them as Christians.

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).
Who is in charge?

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).

"There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle…In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement's epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: To-day we have passed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.
'Dionysius of Corinth, To Pope Soter (A.D. 171).

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's Passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour...Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.”
Pope Victor & Easter (c. A.D. 195).

That's nice, but your hatred is unjustified. Prejudice and ignorance, and maybe anger at authority, might be excuses but as usual, such hostility has much deeper roots. Sad, really.

This more blind ignorance. Jesus is head of the Church, that is a Catholic teaching. Pope means "papa" or "father" in Italian. If you can't find "father" in the bible, it's your problem, not mine.

An insult from the Anglicans in the 15th century. Bigots today like the term because they are sadists, taking a sick kind of pleasure in inflicting pain on Catholics.

Yes, there is. Romans 1:8. It comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.

It's also found in Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Maybe you can find a verse that infers the name of your particular ...umm...church/fellowship/group/community. I'm still waiting for you to name it.

Catholic means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting the entire world and ALL peoples therein'. It means, ALL encompassing, comprehensibly broad, general, and containing ALL that is necessary. In summation, it means ALL people in ALL places, having ALL that is necessary, and for ALL time.

Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples of ALL nations...teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you; And behold, I am with you ALL days, even unto the consummation of the world."
That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.

You can claim that title for yourself but you, your group, community or bless-me-club (if you have one) doesn't fit the biblical usage. Just because the Catholic Church is the oldest and biggest Church on the planet is no reason to be jealous, angry or hostile.

Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

Then you must declare Jeremiah and Daniel to be false prophets.
Jer. 33:17 “For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel,

Dan. 2:44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

You also must dismiss Isa. 22.

Isa. 22:19 - Shebna is described as having an "office" and a "station." An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required.
This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.

. 20: In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah,

Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

21: and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God's people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth. It's not in your bible because you don't want it to be.

22: And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

You must also ignore Rev. . 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Compare Revelation 3:7 with Matthew 16:19

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

rev. 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Anyone with 2 functioning brain cells has to admit there is a parallel. So who has the key of David?

The English word "Pope" is not in the bible, but neither is the word Trinity. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist? Whose interpretation merits the most weight? the men whose culture and language was very close to that of the Apostles, or some internet bigot selling hate propaganda to religious fools looking for an adrenaline rush? Your choice is obvious.

There is salvation by faith, but the only place in the Bible where "faith alone" appears is James 2:24, where it is rejected.

None of your verses says "faith alone"
John 3: 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
There is no church I know of that teaches "works salvation", it is a myth you choose to hang on to.

kepha · Nov 9, 2014

Oops, wrong address. It should read James 2:26, which clearly and unequivocably states, "26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
The faith alone club can't deal with this verse so they ignore it.
Atwood, SCREAMING with large font caps won't get your point across any better, it's just annoying. Grow up.

Atwood · Nov 9, 2014

kepha said:

The point is that you spoke about a specific group of writings which are called The Apostolic Fathers, which I have read. The point is that you cannot prove that any of them refer to the Bishop of Rome as a pope having rule over all churches and Christians. There is no pope in those writings.

You refer to the book we call "1 Clement," but I don't find the name "Clement" anywhere in that book.
That books does not start out like, Clement papa of Rome to blah blah. It starts:

The church of God that sojourns in Rome to the church of God that sojourns in Corinth, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ: May grace and peace from almighty God through Jesus Christ be yours in abundance.
"
It ends:

The letter of the Romans to the Corinthians.

It also refers to leaders in the plural.
In the NT every historical city church had a group of elders=bishops in charge of it, so far as is recorded. There is no monarchal bishop, let alone archbishop, cardinal, or pope.

No pope, your quote says plural "us."

So much for so-called 1 Clement. If it had a pope, why isn't Clement even named in the writing?

Your quote of Iggy, says that the Church of Rome presides over love in a list of complement, nothing about presiding over other churches.

Kepha, you can stop the bold assertions that have no proof. If you think there was a dude named "Soter," monarchal bishop of Rome in AD 171, quote 2 reliable contemporary sources. Your Dionysius gambit fails. It says nothing about anyone being a pope anywhere. Tertius wrote the book of Romans for Paul. What we call 1 Clement is a letter from a church to a church. Dionysius says nothing to the contrary. Doesn't "Your epistle" = a church's epistle? Now whatever document your Dionysius gambit refers to, saying that a Church wrote a letter through somebody, does not sound like the somebody is any pope.

You quote Irenaeus as referring to "unauthorized meetings." My guess would be that those "unauthorized meetings," were meetings of real Christians as opposed to the Nicolaitans like Irenaeus. In the NT there is nothing I know of about meetings requiring "authorization."

Irenaeus is not a contemporary of the founding of the Church of Rome. It is inconsistent with scripture to make Peter a founder of the Church of Rome. It already existed when he spoke of visiting it in Romans. Successions of bishops (=elders) is nothing remarkable. If a Church had elders and they appointed new elders from time to time & they appointed new elders from time to time, etc., one could speak of a succession. This has nothing to do with any pope, which is what this conversations is supposed to be about.

You fail with 1 Clement, Dionysius, & now Irenaeus.
I have not idea what you are quoting about Victor next. But it doesn't look like anything written by any Victor. Nor does it appear to have been written in AD 195. So why are you quoting it?

What is sad is when someone commits the sin of judging. As I have no hate for you nor for papists. It is love to show you your errors.

Alice in Wonderland, Kepha. No man is called pope in the NT. And the term "father" is not only not used as an ecclesiastical title, but Christ specifically forbad it. CALL NO MAN FATHER!

Yes there is what? I am a catholic; you are a Romanist. I don't see any refs to "catholic church" in your statements. Rom 1:8 certainly refers to no such thing

your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world. That says nothing about a catholic church. The name of the thing Christ built is Church, Christ's Church, aka the Body of Christ. It is universal, so it is rightly called catholic (but not Roman). Only today the Romanists have tried to put a patent on the name falsely.

A verse that refers to my Church?
1 Cor 12:13 for starters.
There is no verse that refers to any Roman catholic church. The Church at Rome is a local church, not the Catholic Church.

All the references to ekklesia, when used universally, are a reference to my fellowship, my Church. There is and has ever only been one. It cuts across denominations. I think some RCCists are in it too; everyone who trusts Christ as Only & Sufficient Savior (having Him adequately defined, for which the RCC passes the test on that one).

Maybe you can find a verse that infers the name of your particular ...umm...church/fellowship/group/community. I'm still waiting for you to name it.

You really seem to indicate that you don't heed what I say, but substitute what you think I would say. You waste your time going on about the term catholic.

Kepha, if you are going to debate, you really ought to pay attention to what your opponent says. That statement you made is inaccurate. The catholic church is not the oldest & biggest Church; it is the ONLY Church. There is and ever has been only 1 Church. I am in it. You appear not to be. You are in a papal organization which falsely calls itself "church" & "catholic." It is Roman. It is not Christ's Body.

Don't dare question Christ's prayer. Whatever He prayed for happened. This is not something we accomplish; He did it. His prayer was fulfilled. Don't worry that it might not if we don't get together & sing Kum Ba Yah.

Those passage do not mention the Church. The first the a promise to Israel, not to the Church.
In the day of those kings? 10 kings give power to the Antichrist, Christ returns & destroys Him & sets up a Kingdom. It doesn't mention the Church.

You really are in Alice in Wonderland on Isaiah 22.

Hilkiah was the father of prophet Jeremiah, who found the law in the Temple. Those guys were their contemporaries who lived & died long ago.

Dream on. The Kingdom of David has nothing to do with the papacy. And if you have a verse that connects them, I invite you to post it.

Your Eliakim stuff is fantasy, awful eisegesis. Eliakim was the brother of Jeremiah, both sons of Hilkiah, historical figures:

19 And I will thrust thee from thine office; and from thy station shalt thou be pulled down. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: 21 and I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; and he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a throne of glory to his father’s house. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, every small vessel, from the cups even to all the flagons. 25 In that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, shall the nail that was fastened in a sure place give way; and it shall be hewn down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off; for Jehovah hath spoken it.

These men lived shortly before the Babylonian captivity. Eliakim had a moment of glory in authority, probably like Zedekiah's prime minister. His rise & fall are prophesied above. He will be fastened like a nail, but eventually fall.
There is no pope here, for crying outloud! Nothing about Peter, nothing about Linus. There is no succession of popes established in the Bible anywhere.

As to the keys to Peter. There is nothing about passing on keys to anyone. Neither is it evident to me that the Kingdom of Heaven is the Church.

Let's see you prove that one.

Compare Revelation 3:7 with Matthew 16:19

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

rev. 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Mat 16 refers to Peter with keys.
Rev 3:17 refers to Christ, not Peter with "key."
Mat 16 refers to the Kingdom of Heaven (what Christ announced to Israel as at hand);
Rev 3 refers to a city Church in Philadelphia given an open door to Christian service, as with soul-winning.

No connection. No Pope.

Not only is pope not in the Bible, but no equivalent is there, Rome has no primacy as a city church, No bishop in Rome has primacy in the NT. Paul told off Peter at Antioch in Gal 2.
What am I? I am a catholic, a member of the Body of Christ.
You are a Romanist.

There were plenty of heretics in NT times, but none either orthodox or heretical at the time of the NT nor in the next age, recognized any pope in our records.

James 2:24 does not even mention "salvation." So false statement. After a man is saved he may be declared righteous for good works; by their fruits you shall know them.

But twice in the NT ONLY BELIEVE is mentioned, with not mere approval, but urgency that the person should only believe.

None of your verses says "faith alone"
John 3: 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
There is no church I know of that teaches "works salvation", it is a myth you choose to hang on to.[/QUOTE]

"No church"? There you go again, speaking as if there were more than one church. But plenty of persons advocated salvation by works. In fact you just mentioned James 2:24 as if it were salvation by works.

It is no myth. Water immersion is a human work. Lots of persons think it is required for salvation. Many seem to think that Mat 25 teaches salvation by works.

It is a fact that I have posted many, many works where is it FAITH/BELIEVING ALONE THAT SAVES. Salvation is offered for only believing, as in John 3:16.

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.

In that answer "believe" alone is mentioned as the MUST I DO.

When scripture says whosoever believes, or anyone who believes, or everyone who believes, that language rules out anything else being essential for man to get salvation.

1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Eph

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Atwood · Nov 10, 2014

kepha said:

Baloney, Kepha.
As Eph 2 tells us,
the order is
1) unsaved man with out any good works (there is none righteous), all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags
2) God's grace & man's faith,
3) salvation, recreation by God with new ability to do good works,
4) good works.

Good works follow faith, and will follow faith.
It is a bogus faith which does not lead to salvation & that to good works.
Assuming you aren't just cynical, you really need to get an education on what we believe before you go attacking it -- or perhaps merely start paying attention to what we actually say.

BTW, I made a typo below, putting Peter where I should have put Paul. In rebuttal of the claim that the Ch of Rome was founded by Peter & Paul, I point out that the Ch of Rome already existed before Paul got there.

Corrected statement:

It is inconsistent with scripture to make Paul a founder of the Church of Rome. It already existed when he spoke of visiting it in Romans.

GIVE HEED TO GOD'S WORD:

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Eph

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rev 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father . . . . 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Atwood · Nov 10, 2014

Kepha, Is your statement below plagiarized or did you just accidentally leave off the source?

kepha said:

That statement above looks like an English translation of Eusebius, the famous historian of the supposed church, though it is certain that the end of it cannot be, as Eusebius never refers to any "Pope Soter (A.D. 171)." And I am confident that neither did Dionysius in any extant source.

If there the Lord intended there to be an office of papa in the Church, is it not passing strange that He never said so, but forbad the use of pater as a religious title? And is it not strange that neither the NT age, nor the following age left any record of any popes? Your list of popes going back to Peter is bogus.

BTW, if faith were not enough for salvation on man's part,
why is salvation offered so many many times for faith/believing/trusting Christ alone?

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
[FAITH ALONE, NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:14-18
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that
whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, . . . .
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
[FAITH ALONE, NO WORKS, NO WATER]

kepha · Nov 10, 2014

Atwood said:

The term "pope" was applied to priests and bishops for the first 400 years. Then it was applied soley to the Bishop of Rome. Beliefs and teachings always exist before terms. Because the usage of a term developed later does not change the facts, you are being a legalist with no concept of development.

I don't know how many times this has been explained to you. I guess it's blindness.

Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

According to your twistings, Paul is wrong!

Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father."

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders' ministry to the people like a father with his children.

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly "fathers." But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his "son."

1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church "fathers."

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church "children."

Sorry the dictionary disagrees with you.

The Catholic Church has no patent on the truth, but you seem to think you do.

I could be wrong, but I submit you are your own pope in a church of one.

I didn't ask you for a verse for your church, I asked for a name, which you seem unwilling to give. Could it be that you don't have one? No, I am a Catholic of the Latin or Roman rite, one of 23 rites. If you are going to insult me with "Romanist" then you are a brain-washed anti-Catholic bigot with authority issues who refuses to see the myths other ant-Catholic bigots have created, and this childish rock-throwing contest can come to an end. Back to the ignorasium you go to play with your blocks.

You change the subject with every paragraph, inserting irrelevant digs at every turn. You really should get some counselling or at least tell your family doctor how you feel about the Catholic Church. He has medications that can help you.

Atwood · Nov 10, 2014

Though you pettifog here or there, the stark fact remains that the picture of the Church in the NT is utterly foreign to the RCC system. Kepha goes on about this or that, but he fails to show that papa/pope was every used in the early church for a universal church ruler. Neither does he show any equivalent title. In fact, Kepha fails to show that it is in the Apostolic fathers in any sense whatsoever.

The prohibition vs calling someone Father means just that and forbids the term as a religious title. But Kepha wants to deflect & cite the use of the term where it is neither a title nor is someone addressed as "Father."

kepha said:

I didn't ask you for a verse for your church, I asked for a name[/quote]

The name of my Church, as I already told you is, Ekklesia, the Body of Christ. My Church is what the scripture says it is. Do you continue with the error that there are a multiplicity of churches or that denominations are Churches?

Insult do not commend any alleged rationality of your arguments.

There is no pope (by any title) in the NT or early church history.
Salvation is by grace through faith -- God's part is grace, ours is to trust the Savior, as Scripture says so many times.

ONLY BELIEVE!

The use of whosoever, everyone, all (& the like) rule out any essential addition.

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 3:14-18
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that
whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Atwood · Nov 10, 2014

Kepha falsely claims that John calls elders "fathers" in verses where "elders" is absent.

kepha said:

What you are saying is that the fathers are also children, for everyone in the Church is a member, regardless of spiritual gift.

What children, young men, & fathers (plural) in 1 John mean is open to interpretation. The only explanation I know of is level of maturity in Christianity is designated by John with those terms.

If Fathers were a title, then so would be Young Men. I never heard of "Young Men" used as the title of a church office. It is bogus to read into the passage "church office" where none is stated. 1 John is easily as no violation of the command not to call a man father.

The Lord Jesus said:

" And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven."

So don't do it!

Be reminded that

By grace you have been saved [if saved!]
through faith, . . .
NOT OF WORKS.

Isn't it strange how so many times salvation is offered on the basis of ONLY BELIEVE,
without any other ingredients required of man? Do you think that the Lord overlooked something or was falsely advertising? Nay, He keeps His Word & honors His covenants.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
[NO RCC, NO POPE]

Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, . . . .
[NO IDOLS, NO MARY]

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO NOTHING ELSE]

kepha · Nov 10, 2014

Atwood · Nov 10, 2014

kepha said:

There is no pope in the NT; no office of pope to be continued. I searched the Apostolic Fathers for pope & papa -- neither appeared. I searched for "father," and found no use of "father" for an ecclesiastical title, nor any human being addressed as "father."

So your claim is bogus.

BTW, in the NT bishop & elder are used interchangeably -- priest is not used as the RCC uses it. See 1 Peter 5. In each historical circumstance that describes elders at a city church, we find a plurality of elders. There is no "head elder" mentioned.

But in Iggy, we find the bishop distinguished from elders (πρεσβύτεροι), showing that the rise of the monarchal bishop was rather early. The corruption of the NT pattern appears to have been rapid. We possibly see the rise of the monoarchal bishop in 3 John, where this skunk Diotrephes was possibly trying to be the monoarchal bishop.

I am reminded of the book of Judges which shows the great corruption that followed soon after the death of Joshua.

Just read your NT with your eyes opened to see how very foreign the papal organization is to the NT Church.

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