Self-Defense

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Deade

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#22
Your proof texts are in the context of controlling anger. It simply means do not seek to retaliate.
You seem to agree with my premise but you are doing it in a way where you look like you are trying to take over this thread. Like MessengerOfTheCross did earlier. Post after post after post. If you have something to say, please do it normally. Thank you.:)
 

Deade

Called of God
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#23
I didn't intend to get huffy and run everybody off. Sorry if I come on a little strong, at times. I have always been a very strong person. A product of my upbringing. I thought now would be a good time to share what I wrote in my first book on the subject of self-defense. :cool:

What about military service? Most Christians would say don’t serve; or if you do enlist, do so as a conscientious objector so as not to serve in battle. I also thought that would be my case, as I could easily give my life for my beliefs. Then the Lord asked me to think of certain scenarios. Yes, God will talk to you if you are into meditation and prayer. When He got to the one about self-defense of my household, He said my house was taken over by terrorists; and they were sure to tie up the males to watch as the females (wives and daughters) were raped and killed. Then the males would be killed. If I knew this beforehand, would I do something? I told the Lord that He would have to forgive me; but I would try to stop it from happening—even if it meant deadly force. Then the Lord told me that it would be okay, but I was being a hypocrite. If I could defend my family, I could also defend my country and/or community.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
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#24
To me, self-defense is just common sense. You say Jesus instructed the soldiers to kill no man? Would that not amount to desertion? They would have to completely leave the military as conscientious objectors, which would go over really well in ancient Rome.

Let's look at what Jesus said in you verse: Luke 3:14 "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

The word used for violence is:

Violence = G1286
διασείω
diaseiō
dee-as-i'-o
From G1223 and G4579; to shake thoroughly, that is, (figuratively) to intimidate: - do violence to.


So, this is a little different than "do not kill." Jesus would have instructed them to complete leave their ranks if they couldn't carry out their duties (which might include kill). :unsure:
Your King James bible is using the wrong usage for the Greek word diaseisēte, which means to shake down. The only thing that is being imparted is an admonition not to steal by force. The New King James bible got it right. Luke 3:14 (Then some soldiers also asked him, “Andas for us—what should we do?” He told them, “Take money from no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your pay.” Violence to keep order or protect the country is not prohibited, but theft is.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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#26
[He] is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes” (Daniel 4:17).
 
Jun 10, 2019
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#27
Self defense does not mean you must kill your attacker, just use enough force to subdue them for the purpose of keeping them from harming others or harming yourself.

Exodus 15:3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
3 The Lord is a great soldier.
The Lord is his name.
That’s easier said than done in some cases, if it’s about how fast a person gets a shot off before the other takes a shot it can be a split second reaction quick at the draw might be what saves a family from being a victim of a violent crime, between life and death.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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#28
That’s easier said than done in some cases, if it’s about how fast a person gets a shot off before the other takes a shot it can be a split second reaction quick at the draw might be what saves a family from being a victim of a violent crime, between life and death.
I keep military type traps outside the house, flood lights in the house, camera with alert systems and big dogs inside.
I also have a land mine under the Passenger seat of my car. I am always armed to the teeth. I can do this because I have a badge for NEST. Nuclear Energy, Emergency Search Support Team -- the title changes often with each administration.
 
Jun 10, 2019
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#29
I keep military type traps outside the house, flood lights in the house, camera with alert systems and big dogs inside.
I also have a land mine under the Passenger seat of my car. I am always armed to the teeth. I can do this because I have a badge for NEST. Nuclear Energy, Emergency Search Support Team -- the title changes often with each administration.
That’s a lot to get through to tie you up, lol. though if I ever ride shotgun please disarm the land mine.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#31
Two beautiful parables

Matthew 10:16 (KJV) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Slow to anger quick to defend the shield of armor as the word defends us.

Ephesians 6: 13-18 (KJV) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#32
Two beautiful parables

Matthew 10:16 (KJV) Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Slow to anger quick to defend the shield of armor as the word defends us.

Ephesians 6: 13-18 (KJV) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?

Why did Jesus use limited violence to clear the temple?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#33
Why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?

Why did Jesus use limited violence to clear the temple?
That is something I have been looking at .Its an interesting parable. Two swords is enough to serve the upcoming . Two is used many times to represent one . It seems to be used that way in that section. In the same way a literal sword can cut off, so the does the power of the sword of God. It would seem that what I will call real power comes from hearing In that way it is described. . . he gives us ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches..

Luke 22: 35-42And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Having demonstrated the gospel the father striking the Son poring out the cup of wrath and then strengthening him to finish the demonstration. He was now prepared to help us understand the purpose of two swords.

Luke22: 47-52 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss? When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?


John's account revealing the power of hearing the I Am more power than the literal sword the sound of it causes men to fall backward. A metaphor used throughout the bible to indicate those under the judgement of God. Much can be gleaned from those parable that reveal the good news. .

John 18:1-11 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
As soon then as he had said unto them,
I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

The Son of man had to drink it alone .it was the work of the Son and the father working together in perfect harmony and submissiveness. It as the sword of the Spirit brought the peace of God that surpasses all understanding..

Peter the denier who tried to cut off Jesus in Mathew 16 is going about his kind of business waking by sight learned not to the hard way the way of mankind. The kind of guy you want to have your back in a dark alley .

As to your question why did Jesus use limited violence to clear the temple. I would suggest for the same reason no earthquake that can split rocks but a still voice that can calm a person's new heart and soul.

1 Kings 19:11-13 King James Version (KJV) And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#34
We were given the scripture of turn the other cheek by Jesus. Let’s look at that. Matt. 5:39 “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Why do you suppose He used the term “resist not evil?” God controls everything and everybody. Therefore, if evil comes against, God has allowed it. We should consider it a test. That said, I feel God has instructed me that “turn the other cheek” is not addressing self-defense. That is more like refusing to engage in a duel, as aristocrats using their gloves to smite someone in challenge.

Jesus was not discussing self-defense. Read the next three verses and you see He is speaking handling confrontation. The account in Luke has it in the same verse: Luke 6:29 “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.”

So, let's discuss this as it pertains to serving as police or military also. View attachment 202843
That is true that turn the other cheek is not speaking of self defense, but to not fight at all physically, also it states if they steal your cloke let them have your coat too, adding further to not fight back.

Resist not evil means do not resist physical assault.

But the Bible says resist the devil and he will flee from you for we resist evil spiritually.

Some people believe we can defend ourselves if confronted but the Bible says the saints are persecuted all the day long, and are counted as sheep for the slaughter, so it appears as if they cannot defend themselves physically for God is in control.

If we fight physically, even to defend ourselves, then we are acting like the world that fights physically for their ways on earth, and we have to be different than that.

The man Christ Jesus never fought against anyone physically, and for people that say He made a whip and chased the people out of the temple I believe the whip was to chase the animals out of the temple, for Jesus overthrowing the money tables, and chasing the animals was enough for the people to leave for their purpose for being there was thwarted.

Jesus said be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.

If they hit you on one cheek turn to them the other cheek to hit.

Do not fear what they can do to the body but can do no more, but fear God for He will punish all evilness.

God said all wars come from people the lust of their flesh, and not from God.

Do not take vengeance upon yourself, but give place to wrath, for God said vengeance is mine, I will repay.

God said no government, or authority, can rule unless God allows it, and if He allows it then do not go against that authority.

King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, referred to as gold, that rode on eagle's wings for they acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest God, and the king said if anybody said anything amiss against Him they shall be cut it pieces, and their house made a dunghill, said that God rules in the kingdom of men, and gives the kingdom to who He wants to have it.

They could not touch Jesus until the time came for Him to give His human life for us.

God is in control, and nothing can happen unless God allows it, so if He allows it who are we do go against it.

When the beast attacks the saints God warns them not to fight back, for however they fight back it will come back on them for they are acting like the world, which this is the patience and faith of the saints.

Jesus told the disciple when he cut off the servant's ear to put up his sword, for he who uses the sword shall also perish the sword, and it appears as if the sword was for the purpose of healing the servant's ear as a testimony that Jesus is of God the same as Jesus saying I am He and they fell down backwards.

We are not to fight physically at all, and if we are verbally assaulted we do not verbally assault back, and if we are physically assaulted we do not physically assault back.

And nothing can happen unless God allows it, so if someone comes against us God is allowing it, and we know we are persecuted by the world and God allows it, so why are they trying to fight against it.

As far as a job such as a police officer, or military, where they are willing to take a life if it comes to that they should not do a job like that unless they are a Chaplain that does not fight.

And as far as anybody attacking their nation it could not happen unless God allows it, and God will determine whether it stands or falls, and the saints will have no bearing on that if they fight, and there are plenty of people of the world that can do the fighting.

If God rules in the kingdom of men, and gives the kingdom to who He wants to have it, and no power or authority can rule unless God allows it, and determines whether it stands or falls, then why are saints fighting for their nation when God will determine if it stands or falls so their involvement has no bearing on the outcome of the nation.

But the saints are supposed to stay out of those affairs that the world engages in according to violence and fighting, and God determines whether they escape persecution or harm, or if they do not, and He fights for them.

Now with that being said it does not mean I might not fail at giving heed to that for that is a hard thing to endure, and put up with according to the flesh.

For one we do not want to appear as a wimp in the sight of others to let someone kick the crap out of us especially if we like physical exercise, and are known for strength.

We do not want to take a physical beating for it can hurt like the dickens at times.

But if there was many people that adhered to this it like 90 percent of the population that loves God, and goes by truth, it would not be so bad to take the beating, but we live in a world where they all appear to be kind of violent, and the majority of saints seeming that they would fight back.

So it can make you mad that you want to fight back, and the majority believes in physical violence, and you do not want to appear as a wimp seeing you do not have so much support from people abstaining from fighting back.

For you know how it was through school if you did not fight back you were hassled as being a wimp, and a sissy, and you did not want that, although some would want that for they did not like to fight.

I know it can be tough to endure the ways of the world against us, but we have to endure it and be different than the world, and God will not allow anything to go against us unless He allows it, and if He allows it who are we to go against it.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If the saints can go through these things, and God allows it, why do they think they can fight back.

And we are not supposed to care about these physical bodies for we are part of the spiritual kingdom.

If someone fights physically caring about the physical body then they care about the world, and it's ways.

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul said to endure afflictions, and that he is ready to be offered, for Paul did not fight against it but his attitude was bring it don't sing it.

But many that like when Paul says faith alone will not want to hear him on this matter.

They need to let God handle the affairs of the world according to their fighting and power, and the saints should stay out of it for they are not part of the world, but belong to the spiritual kingdom of God where He is in control of that dominion, and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

God is in control so let Him handle it, and it is His world for He created it, so let Him decide what happens on it.

But many will fail but all sin can be forgiven, but if they do not realize it is a sin then they are in error and acting like the world.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#35
That is true that turn the other cheek is not speaking of self defense, but to not fight at all physically, also it states if they steal your coke let them have your coat too, adding further to not fight back.
....

The context is not stealing. Roman Soldiers were allowed to demand supplies, tell you to carry their load for a mile, and so on. Jesus is saying, if a Roman Soldier demands something from you to go the extra mile for the purpose of being a good example. They may ask you questions about your faith.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
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#36
Does Scripture support this?
God is directing us. Proverbs 16:9 (In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.) 20:24 (A person’s steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand their own way?) Jeremiah 10:23 (Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps.)
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#37
God controls everything and everybody.
Does Scripture support this?
God is directing us. Proverbs 16:9 (In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.) 20:24 (A person’s steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand their own way?) Jeremiah 10:23 (Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps.)
Beside those Crustyone listed, we have: Romans 8:28 "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Not just a few things--all things. Now, ask yourself: Is God in control?
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
693
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#38
That is true that turn the other cheek is not speaking of self defense, but to not fight at all physically, also it states if they steal your cloke let them have your coat too, adding further to not fight back.

Resist not evil means do not resist physical assault.

But the Bible says resist the devil and he will flee from you for we resist evil spiritually.

Some people believe we can defend ourselves if confronted but the Bible says the saints are persecuted all the day long, and are counted as sheep for the slaughter, so it appears as if they cannot defend themselves physically for God is in control.

If we fight physically, even to defend ourselves, then we are acting like the world that fights physically for their ways on earth, and we have to be different than that.

The man Christ Jesus never fought against anyone physically, and for people that say He made a whip and chased the people out of the temple I believe the whip was to chase the animals out of the temple, for Jesus overthrowing the money tables, and chasing the animals was enough for the people to leave for their purpose for being there was thwarted.

Jesus said be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.

If they hit you on one cheek turn to them the other cheek to hit.

Do not fear what they can do to the body but can do no more, but fear God for He will punish all evilness.

God said all wars come from people the lust of their flesh, and not from God.

Do not take vengeance upon yourself, but give place to wrath, for God said vengeance is mine, I will repay.

God said no government, or authority, can rule unless God allows it, and if He allows it then do not go against that authority.

King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, referred to as gold, that rode on eagle's wings for they acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest God, and the king said if anybody said anything amiss against Him they shall be cut it pieces, and their house made a dunghill, said that God rules in the kingdom of men, and gives the kingdom to who He wants to have it.

They could not touch Jesus until the time came for Him to give His human life for us.

God is in control, and nothing can happen unless God allows it, so if He allows it who are we do go against it.

When the beast attacks the saints God warns them not to fight back, for however they fight back it will come back on them for they are acting like the world, which this is the patience and faith of the saints.

Jesus told the disciple when he cut off the servant's ear to put up his sword, for he who uses the sword shall also perish the sword, and it appears as if the sword was for the purpose of healing the servant's ear as a testimony that Jesus is of God the same as Jesus saying I am He and they fell down backwards.

We are not to fight physically at all, and if we are verbally assaulted we do not verbally assault back, and if we are physically assaulted we do not physically assault back.

And nothing can happen unless God allows it, so if someone comes against us God is allowing it, and we know we are persecuted by the world and God allows it, so why are they trying to fight against it.

As far as a job such as a police officer, or military, where they are willing to take a life if it comes to that they should not do a job like that unless they are a Chaplain that does not fight.

And as far as anybody attacking their nation it could not happen unless God allows it, and God will determine whether it stands or falls, and the saints will have no bearing on that if they fight, and there are plenty of people of the world that can do the fighting.

If God rules in the kingdom of men, and gives the kingdom to who He wants to have it, and no power or authority can rule unless God allows it, and determines whether it stands or falls, then why are saints fighting for their nation when God will determine if it stands or falls so their involvement has no bearing on the outcome of the nation.

But the saints are supposed to stay out of those affairs that the world engages in according to violence and fighting, and God determines whether they escape persecution or harm, or if they do not, and He fights for them.

Now with that being said it does not mean I might not fail at giving heed to that for that is a hard thing to endure, and put up with according to the flesh.

For one we do not want to appear as a wimp in the sight of others to let someone kick the crap out of us especially if we like physical exercise, and are known for strength.

We do not want to take a physical beating for it can hurt like the dickens at times.

But if there was many people that adhered to this it like 90 percent of the population that loves God, and goes by truth, it would not be so bad to take the beating, but we live in a world where they all appear to be kind of violent, and the majority of saints seeming that they would fight back.

So it can make you mad that you want to fight back, and the majority believes in physical violence, and you do not want to appear as a wimp seeing you do not have so much support from people abstaining from fighting back.

For you know how it was through school if you did not fight back you were hassled as being a wimp, and a sissy, and you did not want that, although some would want that for they did not like to fight.

I know it can be tough to endure the ways of the world against us, but we have to endure it and be different than the world, and God will not allow anything to go against us unless He allows it, and if He allows it who are we to go against it.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If the saints can go through these things, and God allows it, why do they think they can fight back.

And we are not supposed to care about these physical bodies for we are part of the spiritual kingdom.

If someone fights physically caring about the physical body then they care about the world, and it's ways.

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul said to endure afflictions, and that he is ready to be offered, for Paul did not fight against it but his attitude was bring it don't sing it.

But many that like when Paul says faith alone will not want to hear him on this matter.

They need to let God handle the affairs of the world according to their fighting and power, and the saints should stay out of it for they are not part of the world, but belong to the spiritual kingdom of God where He is in control of that dominion, and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

God is in control so let Him handle it, and it is His world for He created it, so let Him decide what happens on it.

But many will fail but all sin can be forgiven, but if they do not realize it is a sin then they are in error and acting like the world.
Add to this 2 Corinthians 12:9 (But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.) We show weakness in not fighting back which allows God to show his power that is within us.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
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#39
I forgot to mention that in both of my posts above, the verses come for the New International Version (NIV) bible.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#40
As I understand it, God is in control of what he chooses to be at the time. He knows what we are going to do, but he is not responsible for our actions.