Self Examination: Do you understand the Gospel?
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Anyone interested in "unfruitful branches"..there is a grace-based teaching based on the finished work of Christ for us ...sometimes the comments below is where I learn just as much as from the article....enjoy! You will fall deeper in love with our Lord.
What Happens to Unfruitful Branches? – Escape to Reality
What Happens to Unfruitful Branches? – Escape to Reality
The context is abiding in the vine so as to bear fruit. Those that don't bear fruit are cut off while green, then they wither, then they are burned, as is made clear in verse 6.
If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
G
And the fact that maybe some of us come from a farming background.
There isn't just one big bush in a vineyard. there are many plants, young ,adolescent,mature. I don't go pull up my young plants..........i weed,water and fertilize them and you know what............I even lift them up.
And I know you know this. And that was my past, but we still do it for a hobby out here in Montana.
There isn't just one big bush in a vineyard. there are many plants, young ,adolescent,mature. I don't go pull up my young plants..........i weed,water and fertilize them and you know what............I even lift them up.
And I know you know this. And that was my past, but we still do it for a hobby out here in Montana.
But mature limbs and plants that should produce fruit and don't should be, and are, cut off.
And he told this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find [any]. So he said to the gardener, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree and did not find [any]. Therefore cut it down! Why should it exhaust the soil?’ But he answered [and] said to him, ‘Sir, leave it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put manure on [it]. And if indeed it produces fruit in the coming [year], [so much the better], but if not, you can cut it down.’*” Luke 13:6-9
G
Your about as hard headed as I am!
But you pretty much have everybody who has ever lived in hell.......except yourself. Why do want everybody burning in hell so bad?
Pretty much every verse that you use places children of God in hell by your interpretation. If not explicitly, then it is inferred if a certain deed is not done.
You have doom, not life.
But you pretty much have everybody who has ever lived in hell.......except yourself. Why do want everybody burning in hell so bad?
Pretty much every verse that you use places children of God in hell by your interpretation. If not explicitly, then it is inferred if a certain deed is not done.
You have doom, not life.
Your about as hard headed as I am!
But you pretty much have everybody who has ever lived in hell.......except yourself. Why do want everybody burning in hell so bad?
Pretty much every verse that you use places children of God in hell by your interpretation. If not explicitly, then it is inferred if a certain deed is not done.
You have doom, not life.
But you pretty much have everybody who has ever lived in hell.......except yourself. Why do want everybody burning in hell so bad?
Pretty much every verse that you use places children of God in hell by your interpretation. If not explicitly, then it is inferred if a certain deed is not done.
You have doom, not life.
There is also this text to go along with your question:
Matthew 7
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
So it seems we can make that call at times.
The next step is to define fruits. A giant congregation doesn't necessarily qualify as fruit. But some will say it does. There are fruits of the Spirit and fruits of the flesh. These are our clearest examples of fruit. Good and bad works can also be considered fruitful. Examine someone's lifestyle and desires and you will see quickly which side of the fence they are on. The promise of wealth, health and power produces bad fruit, "for the love of money is the root of all evil" and "you can't serve God and wealth". What do they desire? Tells a lot about someone. When someone adds health, wealth and power to the gospel, they've created a false gospel that caters to the flesh. We are within our rights to judge those preaching it, and not only in our rights, but obligated to do so.
Matthew 7
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
So it seems we can make that call at times.
The next step is to define fruits. A giant congregation doesn't necessarily qualify as fruit. But some will say it does. There are fruits of the Spirit and fruits of the flesh. These are our clearest examples of fruit. Good and bad works can also be considered fruitful. Examine someone's lifestyle and desires and you will see quickly which side of the fence they are on. The promise of wealth, health and power produces bad fruit, "for the love of money is the root of all evil" and "you can't serve God and wealth". What do they desire? Tells a lot about someone. When someone adds health, wealth and power to the gospel, they've created a false gospel that caters to the flesh. We are within our rights to judge those preaching it, and not only in our rights, but obligated to do so.
L
Using study Bibles is something I enjoy doing since I don't know the Greek or Hebrew Languages. And although the commentators differ, many do come to the same conclusions since they do know the Greek and Hebrew. The Ryrie Study Bible says for John 15:2
takes away. The word may mean this literally (as remove in 11:39) and would therefore be a reference to the physical death of fruitless Christians (1 Cor.11:30); or it may mean lift up (as picked up in 8:59) which would indicate that the Vinedresser encourages and makes it easier for the fruitless believer, hoping he will respond and begin to bear fruit. prunes. This is done through the Word of God, which cleans the life (same root word as clean in v.3)
Since I have been learning over the last few years to look at all the Bible says through the lens of the Cross as Grace777 has just posted, I believe for sure 15:2 is speaking of how the Vinedresser encourages the fruitless believer.
And aside from that proof., there is also the proof of seeing tons of very annoying foolish Christians ALIVE AND WELL to prove the Lord is very long suffering and loves us not according to our works. But looks at us through the eyes of love and the grace His Son secured for us.
We are sons now and sons do not get cut off. The works that are fruitless do however get burned up when our works are judged to see what is of gold and silver and precious stones or what was only wood hay and stubble to be burned up and tossed.
As it keeps getting stated here, we have to read the Bible with the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to us but we have to first get to the point AND BELIEVE God LOVES us because of the finished work of Christ.
Unless you do, Bible reading will be very confusing and even condemning so much so that instead of coming and taking in the Bread of life, the Word of God, the Bible, and getting a steady diet of it., Christians will be avoiding it like the plague.,as many often do. It becomes the bad news for them as they are actually believing God is always on the verge of chucking them in the fire to be burned.
That is why so many of the brothers and sisters here keep trying to remind their other brothers and sisters here that we have to see ourselves in light of who we are IN Christ. Not be self-conscience but Christ conscience. Not be sin-conscience but righteousness-conscience. How we look at who we are In Christ makes alllllllllll the difference in how we relate to God.
If you borrow money from a friend and can't pay it back and feel ashamed, you avoid your friend. Although your friend loves you dearly and keeps wanting to be around you and calls you and invites you to meet. You avoid him because you are thinking of your debt. He isn't thinking of the debt., you are.
So even if your friend says he forgives your debt., you keep trying to pay him and until you do., you don't feel comfortable around him. Each time you look at him you are reminded of the debt you owe.
Soon you avoid him altogether and your friend is all the while loving you. His feelings have not changed for you but your own thoughts of your debt have directed your fellowship with your friend.
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L
Me too Gr8grace., was taught that God was looking at me and MY worthiness.,not Christ and HIS worthiness. Always had a "fearful expectation of judgement" Man made religion always uses fear to control people. The Bible says that "the LOVE of God constrains us." "we love Him because He first loved us." major difference. satan brings death., Jesus Christ brings life and that MORE abundantly.
F
An oldy but goody......
THE ROOT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
A sinful soul possesses no inherent power to live righteously. There are no natural virtues. All graciousness of character, wherever found, is the outgrowth of life which He imparts.
Claiming to be the Power from which all righteousness proceeds, Christ declares to sinful men, "Apart from me," that is separated from me, "ye can do nothing." His words are to be taken in the most absolute sense. Apart from Him, the living Vine, no one possesses a particle of fruit-bearing power. Apart from Him no one can produce, in any measure, the fruits of righteousness. Every holy life is a branch in the True Vine, and is fed from His out-flowing sap. He is the power in man that incites to righteousness, the power that makes for righteousness, the power that makes righteousness. Humanity is as dependent upon Him for spiritual life, as the branch is dependent upon the tree, the tree upon the soil, the river upon the fountain, the animal upon the air, the planet upon the sun.
The best that man can possibly produce by himself is an outward, mechanical righteousness a righteousness worthless as "filthy rags;" but a vital, spiritual righteousness a righteousness acceptable to God, is possible to him only as his spirit is penetrated and pervaded by the Spirit of Christ.
Those who become partakers of His Spirit become "partakers of His holiness." They are inspired to seek after, and empowered to attain, that ideal righteousness embodied in His life. From the inflow of His love into their hearts results the outflow of His righteousness in their lives. Yielding themselves up to the holy impulses which come from Him, "moving them on to noble ends, "they are "made the righteousness of God in Him."
The blissful effect of the realization by the believer of the indwelling Christ as the inward law and power of righteousness is thus stated by St. Paul, "If Christ is in you, the body is dead, because of sin; but the spirit is life, because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)
Of His presence as of His righteousness there shall be no end. The righteousness which He has brought in for us, and which He is working out in us, is an "everlasting righteousness,"
James M. Campbell, The Indwelling Christ, 1895.
Okay...I'm going to wade in with an analogy I heard long ago regarding grace--what it means and what it doesn't mean. It's possible that this may complicate an already fraught discussion, but I hope not.
So, if we imagine that God has a huge blackboard and is keeping score of our sin, then we can imagine extensions of grace in the OT as God erasing those marks. So, when Abraham had faith it was accounted as righteousness and the marks were erased; when David responded to the rebuke of God via Nathan, repented and wrote Psalm 51, the marks were erased; when the priest engaged in the temple rites on behalf of the Jews, the marks were erased.
So now we have Jesus and some people think that the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus means that God took a huge eraser and got rid of all the marks. Which, if you think about it, would be pretty awesome.
However, God's grace is even more awesome. Because of Jesus, God smashed the board altogether. God is no longer keeping score. What we see in the NT is the idea of KNOWING God. When the sheep and goats are separated, the goats won't be denied because "their sin is too great in number." Jesus will say, "Depart from me I never KNEW you."
So the measure now is do I *know* God. Am I building intimacy with Him? It's not a question of "am I avoiding sin." Sin is problematic because it destroys relationship. The question is, Am I chasing God? Am I getting rid of any barriers between myself and Him? Do I trust Him? Am I leaning into his strength and favor or am I relying on my own abilities? Paul uses the analogy of "running the race." If we focus on the road, we're likely to stumble, or lose heart. If we focus on the goal--Jesus--then we don't allow rough patches, or spills, or exhaustion to deter us.
Trying to earn God's favor is like believing that he's still making marks on a board. It just seems to me that when people really encounter Jesus and get a glimpse of his great love, they would love him not because of any favor they might earn, but because He's so incredibly lovable.
So, if we imagine that God has a huge blackboard and is keeping score of our sin, then we can imagine extensions of grace in the OT as God erasing those marks. So, when Abraham had faith it was accounted as righteousness and the marks were erased; when David responded to the rebuke of God via Nathan, repented and wrote Psalm 51, the marks were erased; when the priest engaged in the temple rites on behalf of the Jews, the marks were erased.
So now we have Jesus and some people think that the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus means that God took a huge eraser and got rid of all the marks. Which, if you think about it, would be pretty awesome.
However, God's grace is even more awesome. Because of Jesus, God smashed the board altogether. God is no longer keeping score. What we see in the NT is the idea of KNOWING God. When the sheep and goats are separated, the goats won't be denied because "their sin is too great in number." Jesus will say, "Depart from me I never KNEW you."
So the measure now is do I *know* God. Am I building intimacy with Him? It's not a question of "am I avoiding sin." Sin is problematic because it destroys relationship. The question is, Am I chasing God? Am I getting rid of any barriers between myself and Him? Do I trust Him? Am I leaning into his strength and favor or am I relying on my own abilities? Paul uses the analogy of "running the race." If we focus on the road, we're likely to stumble, or lose heart. If we focus on the goal--Jesus--then we don't allow rough patches, or spills, or exhaustion to deter us.
Trying to earn God's favor is like believing that he's still making marks on a board. It just seems to me that when people really encounter Jesus and get a glimpse of his great love, they would love him not because of any favor they might earn, but because He's so incredibly lovable.
The comparison between the vine parable and the seed and the sower parable are clear.
The word is the source of our life. Without it we die.
If you stop drinking water you dry up and die because blood no longer flows round the body.
The only reason why believers want to argue spiritual death is impossible is because they are insecure in the faith they have. But the point is walking in the Kingdom is about being alive in your spirit.
And people talk about fruit as if this is a strange idea, people can be fruitless.
Imagine you claim to know God, claim to understand the gospel, and yet love does not show in your life, and you are full of hatred and bitterness. Or as in the seed and the sower parable, weeds or worries of this world crowd in and smother the truth that is within. Now this happens. Now how people stand before the Lord is between them and the Lord.
Jesus clearly is saying spiritual life is life, without His life in you, you are a withered branch.
It is not judgement, rather just simply, what value do you have in the Kingdom. Zero. You are a dead branch only fit to be burnt up.
But if this causes you a problem, bow before Jesus and just ask Him to show you where you shut love out.
It is not hard, and the kingdom is not difficult to walk in, you just trust in Jesus and obey.
Fruit, a change of heart, love, words, His presence, a warmth within, a speaking to your soul flow.
There is nothing to fear here or a lack of reality, it is only disappointment from the past that stops us walking deeper.
The word is the source of our life. Without it we die.
If you stop drinking water you dry up and die because blood no longer flows round the body.
The only reason why believers want to argue spiritual death is impossible is because they are insecure in the faith they have. But the point is walking in the Kingdom is about being alive in your spirit.
And people talk about fruit as if this is a strange idea, people can be fruitless.
Imagine you claim to know God, claim to understand the gospel, and yet love does not show in your life, and you are full of hatred and bitterness. Or as in the seed and the sower parable, weeds or worries of this world crowd in and smother the truth that is within. Now this happens. Now how people stand before the Lord is between them and the Lord.
Jesus clearly is saying spiritual life is life, without His life in you, you are a withered branch.
It is not judgement, rather just simply, what value do you have in the Kingdom. Zero. You are a dead branch only fit to be burnt up.
But if this causes you a problem, bow before Jesus and just ask Him to show you where you shut love out.
It is not hard, and the kingdom is not difficult to walk in, you just trust in Jesus and obey.
Fruit, a change of heart, love, words, His presence, a warmth within, a speaking to your soul flow.
There is nothing to fear here or a lack of reality, it is only disappointment from the past that stops us walking deeper.
"You do not know WHY I BELIEVE that way, because you will not listen to a word I say."
In all communication the listener has to build a model in their head of what the speaker is saying.
Equally the speaker based on feedback has to see what the listen understands is what the speaker said.
Is there a category for someone who is not OSAS, who follows the Lord, has victory over sin, and knows Jesus in his heart?
If the answer is no, then I suspect this is the problem, not trying to force people into these theological boxes that do not exist.
If you believe the world is only legalists or hyper-gracers and you meet someone who is neither your model is wrong.
Now I know people find Jesus from so many different backgrounds, I do not put boxes round them, I just praise the Lord they love Jesus. It seems this is too hard for some to believe Jesus could so this. I mean how dare He!!
In all communication the listener has to build a model in their head of what the speaker is saying.
Equally the speaker based on feedback has to see what the listen understands is what the speaker said.
Is there a category for someone who is not OSAS, who follows the Lord, has victory over sin, and knows Jesus in his heart?
If the answer is no, then I suspect this is the problem, not trying to force people into these theological boxes that do not exist.
If you believe the world is only legalists or hyper-gracers and you meet someone who is neither your model is wrong.
Now I know people find Jesus from so many different backgrounds, I do not put boxes round them, I just praise the Lord they love Jesus. It seems this is too hard for some to believe Jesus could so this. I mean how dare He!!