Seventh Day Adventists teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
#21
LOL
:)

I completely missed that part of the post.
My apologies.

The thing about Michael just sent shock waves through my entire body, lol.
I think I had a seizure.

Anyway...
I'm sure we have some perfectly nice people around here that DO believe those things about Michael.
And we should REALLY REALLY think through all the implications.
Sometimes very nice people, even people we dearly love, simply haven't thought through all the implications of a thing.

It happens.

..
I was not even in the least bit offended ... no worries and no need to apologize.

I agree many nice people do believe a variety of things and we should all think through the implications of what we believe.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#22
I had a copy of Smith’s book long ago. I don’t think I ever read it.

I would view Rev 3:14 as referring to the resurrection body of Christ. Jesus’ resurrection is the beginning of the new creation. Believers will receive their resurrection bodies at his return and all creation will be restored to a glorified, expanded version of the Garden of Eden.
Uh no, that's not what Revelation 3:14 is teaching at all. It is true that the Jw's use this verse to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being and along with this verse they use Proverbs 8:22, they could not be more wrong.

That word "Beginning" in the Greek is "arche," and we get our English word "architect" from that word. In other words, Jesus Christ is the "orgin/designer" of creation because He is the creator. There is something else that is worth noting on this issue.

We all know what John 1:1 says, "In the "arche/beginning" was the Wrod, and the Word was WITH God and the Word was God." Take note of vs2, "He ws in the "arche/beginning" with God." At vs2 the definite article has been supplied. The actual Greek is "en arche-that is, "in beginning."

This means that, The "Word of God" was there before the creation of space-mass and time. In other words, John's beginning preceeds the beginning at Genesis 1:1. Keep in mind both verses, John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 start out with the same three words. "In the beginning." BUT, the main thought in Genesis 1:1 is on WHAT HAPPENED "in the beginning, and in John 1:1 the emphasis is on WHO EXISTED "in the beginning."

So if you think about it notice what John 1:3 says, "All things came into being by/through Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Not only does this verse back up that Jesus Christ is the creator and not a created being but so does Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 His Father backs Him up and so does Revelation 3:14.

Many, many people miss these points including Scholars. At John 1:1 Jesus Christ is "NOT" the spoken word, He is not thought or plan of God like oneness pentecostals believe, He's not the "prophetic word" and He surely is not Michael the arc angel nor is He created. Does this make sense? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#23
The SDA has assumed the teaching of Jesus as God, however there is a segment yet not adhereting to this.

God knows who are His…... We may judge for ourselves what is right, but not for others, not even on any possible decption they may be under…...…..
Your last statement really bothers me because Matthew 7:15-23 says, (I'm not going to quote every verse.) "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps clothing etc. Vs16, You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from throne bushes, not figs from thistles are they?"

The point being that we are to judge the fruit/teachings of others and as Acts 17:11 states, "Now these were more nobleminded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eargerness, EXAMING THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, TO SEE WHETHER THESE THINGS WERE SO."

What things jaumel? The things the the Apostle Paul was saying and teaching. In other words, they even checked out whether or not what Paul was saying was true. This is how we approach all teachers, preachers and other people who are not even in a position of authority, it doesn't matter.

The fact is that we are to "expose" false teachings and if we don't here is what God says about it. Ezekiel 3:18, "When I say to the wicked, "You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or OR SPEAK OUT TO WARN THE WICKED from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND."

Again, we are commanded and it is our responsibility to confront false teachings in what ever form it takes. Now, I know you quoted Matthew 7:1, "Do not judge lest you be judged." What He meant was not to judge the wrong way. Or to put it another way, we should not make hypocritical judgements. This is how the Pharisees were judging by looking at the outword appearance and not the heart. The bottom line, you are misapplying Matthew 7:1 and of course the Lord know who are His, but that is not the point were talking about here. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#24
Uh no, that's not what Revelation 3:14 is teaching at all. It is true that the Jw's use this verse to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being and along with this verse they use Proverbs 8:22, they could not be more wrong.

That word "Beginning" in the Greek is "arche," and we get our English word "architect" from that word. In other words, Jesus Christ is the "orgin/designer" of creation because He is the creator. There is something else that is worth noting on this issue.

We all know what John 1:1 says, "In the "arche/beginning" was the Wrod, and the Word was WITH God and the Word was God." Take note of vs2, "He ws in the "arche/beginning" with God." At vs2 the definite article has been supplied. The actual Greek is "en arche-that is, "in beginning."

This means that, The "Word of God" was there before the creation of space-mass and time. In other words, John's beginning preceeds the beginning at Genesis 1:1. Keep in mind both verses, John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 start out with the same three words. "In the beginning." BUT, the main thought in Genesis 1:1 is on WHAT HAPPENED "in the beginning, and in John 1:1 the emphasis is on WHO EXISTED "in the beginning."

So if you think about it notice what John 1:3 says, "All things came into being by/through Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Not only does this verse back up that Jesus Christ is the creator and not a created being but so does Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 His Father backs Him up and so does Revelation 3:14.

Many, many people miss these points including Scholars. At John 1:1 Jesus Christ is "NOT" the spoken word, He is not thought or plan of God like oneness pentecostals believe, He's not the "prophetic word" and He surely is not Michael the arc angel nor is He created. Does this make sense? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok kneemailer, since you disagree can you please explain why you disagree? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Aug 21, 2019
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#25
It is true that the Jw's use this verse to prove that Jesus Christ is a created being and along with this verse they use Proverbs 8:22, they could not be more wrong. ... [combined]

... Ok kneemailer, since you disagree can you please explain why you disagree? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
They, the Watch Tower and Tract Society theology does teach that Proverbs 8:22 is about the Son, while teaching at the same time that Proverbs 8 speaks of the 'creation' (or bringing forth) of the Son by the Father in 'eternity past' by some unknown means.

So they are not entirely in error upon Proverbs 8, but only partially so. Proverbs 8 does speak about the Son of the Father, but not as 'created', but rather as eternally existing with the Father. This may be shown in several ways.

I disagree with you upon this specific point, in that "they (sic) could not be more wrong", when they are only partially in error, albeit in a great error (denial of the eternality and deity of the Son of the Father).
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,760
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#26
They, the Watch Tower and Tract Society theology does teach that Proverbs 8:22 is about the Son, while teaching at the same time that Proverbs 8 speaks of the 'creation' (or bringing forth) of the Son by the Father in 'eternity past' by some unknown means.

So they are not entirely in error upon Proverbs 8, but only partially so. Proverbs 8 does speak about the Son of the Father, but not as 'created', but rather as eternally existing with the Father. This may be shown in several ways.

I disagree with you upon this specific point, in that "they (sic) could not be more wrong", when they are only partially in error, albeit in a great error (denial of the eternality and deity of the Son of the Father).
Could you please be more specific? What verses in Proverbs 8 "speaks of the creation (or bringing forth) of the Son by the Father in eternity past by some unknown means?" :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,128
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#27
Seventh day Adventists teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel and seem to be very firm in their belief. This is what their prophetess, Ellen G. White taught. From what I've also read in their statement of beliefs, they also believe that Jesus is God, which is a contradiction.

"For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'Thou art My Son, today I have begotten thee?'" (Hebrews 1:5)

"But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever...'" (Hebrews 1:8a).

"But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet?' Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:13-14)

JW's also believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel yet do not believe that Jesus is God. I see a clear distinction in the power and authority of Jesus and Michael the archangel when comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan and in Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel "dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy" against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is Lord and is God incarnate (Romans 10:9; John 1:1,14) yet Michael the archangel is only an angel.
Blessing Mailmandan!

You are correct, teaching that Michael the Archangel as being Jesus and that He is God would definitely be a contradiction, because Michael is a created being and God is eternal.

What I have been doing when JW's come to my door, is that I stop them when they begin speaking all kinds of scriptures. Because, none of things any difference to them if they have the wrong Jesus, who is a created being. No created being could pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. It could only be God who is truly Holy and righteous and therefore, He was the only one able to make payment.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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#28
Could you please be more specific? What verses in Proverbs 8 "speaks of the creation (or bringing forth) of the Son by the Father in eternity past by some unknown means?" :eek:
There are no such passages. I was stating that is what the WTS teach, being the part of Proverbs 8 that they teach in great error. Please read more carefully.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#30
Your last statement really bothers me because Matthew 7:15-23 says, (I'm not going to quote every verse.) "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps clothing etc. Vs16, You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from throne bushes, not figs from thistles are they?"

The point being that we are to judge the fruit/teachings of others and as Acts 17:11 states, "Now these were more nobleminded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eargerness, EXAMING THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, TO SEE WHETHER THESE THINGS WERE SO."

What things jaumel? The things the the Apostle Paul was saying and teaching. In other words, they even checked out whether or not what Paul was saying was true. This is how we approach all teachers, preachers and other people who are not even in a position of authority, it doesn't matter.

The fact is that we are to "expose" false teachings and if we don't here is what God says about it. Ezekiel 3:18, "When I say to the wicked, "You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or OR SPEAK OUT TO WARN THE WICKED from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND."

Again, we are commanded and it is our responsibility to confront false teachings in what ever form it takes. Now, I know you quoted Matthew 7:1, "Do not judge lest you be judged." What He meant was not to judge the wrong way. Or to put it another way, we should not make hypocritical judgements. This is how the Pharisees were judging by looking at the outword appearance and not the heart. The bottom line, you are misapplying Matthew 7:1 and of course the Lord know who are His, but that is not the point were talking about here. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Yes, you have said it. You will know them by the fruit they bear.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#31
https://carm.org/

here is a great site that has a bunch of useful info. And yes it is the jws that believe that garbage.
Both the JW and SDA believe this. Its not surprising because Charles Russel founder of the JW cult started off as a member of the SDA
In fact he was an editor of their New Dawn magazine before he started his own movement.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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#32
Both the JW and SDA believe this. Its not surprising because Charles Russel founder of the JW cult started off as a member of the SDA
In fact he was an editor of their New Dawn magazine before he started his own movement.
CT Russell was never a 'member of the SDA (1863)'. Your history is quite in error from the factual history of the bible students and later WTS society. "Millerites", "Adeventists", "First day Adventists", "Second Adventists", etc are all differing groups.

You will also not find amongst the historical writings of the SDA any such paper called "New Dawn". All of the SDA printed materials are available online.

"... One of the major Adventist influences on Russell was Nelson Barbour whom published the magazine “The Midnight Cry” (later named “Herald of the Morning”). Barbour thought Christ would return in a visible manner in 1874. ..."

That is not SDA theology, though it was "Adventist" theology.

"... Nelson Barbour and Charles Taze Russell joined for the publication of the Adventist magazine Herald of the morning, where Russell became the assistant editor. ..." - https://www.watchtowerlies.com/origins_of_jehovah_s_witnesses.html

You should study more closely the history of those whom you condemn, and at least get the history right.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#33
Jesus cannot be an angel and God at the same time.

Also God's name represents His character so the name of God is important, or any name God gives a person such as Abram to Abraham, Saul to Paul, and whoever else, which Lucifer became Satan to identify his new nature.

God said He placed His name in Jerusalem.

Jehovah, physical deliverance, physical blessings.

Jesus, spiritual deliverance, spiritual blessings, along with our needs.

The name Michael who is an archangel could not be given to Jesus for it would be a name that would not measure up to who Jesus is as the Savior, and as God.

John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah, which Jesus was speaking of him and said Elijah already came.

But Jesus cannot in any way be identified with the name Michael, or Michael himself, for it is impossible.

Whatever name God reveals to us identifies His character to us, and whatever benefits we get through that name, and Michael is not it for Jesus is God.

In the book of Revelation it states that Jesus has a name that no man knows which might identify Him as being God in His invisible form with His attributes that we cannot ever attain to understanding, and Jesus dwells in the light which no person can approach unto, and no person has ever seen Jesus, and no person will ever see Jesus, for He is an invisible Spirit that showed us a visible manifestation of Himself.

The Bible says that Jesus is the name that is above all names, not only in this world but the world to come, so how can Michael be a name to identify Jesus when His name is above all names.

To say that Jesus can be identified by the name Michael would be to reduce Jesus to a lower position, and not the Savior of the world, and not God.

People do not realize the importance of God's name, and what it represents, and the name Jesus is above the name Jehovah for His name is above all names in the next world, and Jehovah is known to us so Jesus is above that name.

Jesus cannot be an angel and God at the same time, and the name Michael cannot be applied to Jesus for the name Michael is inferior to the name Jesus, and Jesus is the name above all names.

If Jesus is the name above all names why would He be identified with the name Michael.

That alone should tell you Jesus cannot be Michael, and cannot even be identified with his name.

That is like my last name being Rockerfeller being one of them, and the Smiths are poor, but I am identified with the name Smith although I am rich.

Does not make sense.

Jesus is God, Lord and Savior, Son of the living God, name above all names, the Almighty, and He is going to be identified with the name Michael.

Does not make sense.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#35
We believe that the term "Michael" is but one of the many titles applied to the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead.
Since Michael is clearly identified as an archangel in Scripture, and since ALL angels are created spirit beings, it follows that Michael cannot be Jesus, and Jesus -- WHO IS GOD -- cannot be Michael. That is FALSE DOCTRINE.

The pre-incarnate Christ was identified as "the angel of the LORD" in the OT, but each time it was also evident that God had appeared to man as though an angel. One of the best passages which clears this up in Exodus 3.

EXODUS 3
HOREB THE MOUNTAIN OF GOD

1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

CHRIST IS THE ANGEL OF THE LORD
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

THE BURNING BUSH AN EVIDENCE OF GOD'S PRESENCE
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

CHRIST IS YHWH (THE LORD = YAHWEH) AND ELOHIM (GOD)
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

HOLY GROUND = GOD'S PHYSICAL PRESENCE
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

CHRIST IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, THE GOD OF THE PATRIARCHS
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

CHRIST IS YHWH (THE LORD)
7And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

CHRIST IS THE DELIVERER WHO GIVES ISRAEL THE PROMISED LAND
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

CHRIST HEARD THE PRAYER OF THE ISRAELITES
9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

CHRIST COMMISSIONS AND SENDS MOSES
10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

MOSES SPEAKS TO GOD WHO IS IN FACT CHRIST
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

GOD IS THE ONE WHO WAS WITH MOSES
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

CHRIST IS THE GOD OF THE PATRIARCHS
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

JESUS SAID THAT HE IS "I AM THAT I AM" OR SIMPLY "I AM"
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

JESUS IS GOD AS WELL AS THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Bible says that no man has seen God (the Father) at any time. It is always the Son who has revealed Him. And the Son is the Creator, not the creature Michael.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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#36
since ALL angels are created
Another interesting statement. Are you sure? You have looked at every instance of the word "angel", "mal'ak" and "aggelos" in scripture in the Masoretic, koine Greek, English and even what some would term septuaginta?
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#37
Jesus is not a created god, and has no beginning as God, but has a beginning as the man Christ Jesus.

The Bible says that when the Ruler shall come who is Jesus He will be from everlasting which is to not have a beginning.

The Bible says that Jesus is God manifest in flesh, and He is the Word, and the Word was God, and He is the Almighty.

God said there was no God formed before Him, and there will be no God formed after Him.

Jesus is God and man, and according to Him being God He has no beginning, but according to His humanity He has a beginning.

This is what it is, and it speaks of Jesus being created according to His humanity.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to come in the future in flesh it is the same as it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

John 1.

The word of God is God revealing Himself to us by words written in a book, and the Word of God is God revealing Himself in a visible image, at first flesh, and then a glorified body in heaven.

The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and without the Word was not anything created that was created, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So the Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh before He started creation, which Adam was made in the image of God, and the New Testament Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the world, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
All things were made with the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, eternal life, and to judge the angels and people.

Jesus is not a created god, for He is God Himself, but He was created as a human being, and God coming in flesh was the first plan God had before He started creation, so the man Christ Jesus is part of that first plan for Jesus is God and man, and the man Christ Jesus can be considered already existing before He is born for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until 4000 years later, for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, so the man Christ Jesus can be considered born before He is born.

And Jesus is the firstborn of all the creatures although He was born after them.

So Jesus being created in the beginning was not Him being a created god, but as the man Christ Jesus who can be considered created, and born in the beginning before it actually happened, for God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.

Like the Lamb was slain, the prophets blood shed, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world although they were future events.

Jesus is God that has no beginning, and not a created god, for He is from everlasting.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This cannot be applied to Michael for Jesus dwells in the light that no person can approach unto, and no person has ever seen Jesus, and no person will ever see Jesus, for He is the invisible God that showed us a visible manifestation of Himself.

Jesus is the only Potentate, Ruler, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, which cannot be said of Michael.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#38
Daniel 10:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
18 Again one having the appearance of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19 And he said, “O man greatly loved, fear not, peace be with you; be strong and of good courage.” And as he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.” 20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

Is the majestic person in vision talking to Daniel, who has appearance of a man, Jesus? I believe so, as Daniel falls face to the ground in worship and the person totally matches the appearance of God from the book of Revelation, and men hid themselves (totally matching how people want to hide from the wrath of the Lamb)... :unsure: Read the whole chapter if you like, I've left out some verses for a smoother read not for deceptiveness - Daniel is describing one same person throughout the chapter, no switching.

If this is Jesus talking, it seems Jesus clearly says here that Michael is a separate person, fighting by His side?

Furthermore he also says:
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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#39
If this is Jesus talking
It is Gabriel speaking, for notice:

Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Otherwise, notice what you would have the Son saying in vs 11,13.

Yet, all we need to do is confirm through study:

Daniel, upon seeing this great sight, falls “face toward the ground” in a “deep sleep”. Then, in a moment, a “hand touched” him, and lifts up Daniel, and begins speaking to him, being sent to him from the Son of God:

Daniel 10:10 - And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

Daniel 10:11 - And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

The “hand” and the one that was then speaking to Daniel, is Gabriel.

Compare:

Daniel 10:9 - “... then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground ...”

to Daniel 8:18 - “... I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground ...”

Compare:

Daniel 10:12 - “... I am come for thy words ...”

also Daniel 10:11 - “... sent ...”

to Daniel 9:21 - “... being caused to fly swiftly ...”

and Daniel 9:22 - “... And he informed me, and talked with me ...”

and Daniel 9:23 - “... I am come to shew thee ...”

and Daniel 8:17 - “... So he came near where I stood ...”

Compare:

Daniel 10:10 - “... hand touched me ...”

to Daniel 9:21KJB - “... touched me ...”

and Daniel 8:18 - “... he touched me, and set me upright ...”

Compare:

Daniel 10:11-14 - “... understand ...”

to Daniel 9:22 - “... skill and understanding ...”

and Daniel 9:23 - “... therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.”

and Daniel 9:25 - “Know therefore and understand ...”

and Daniel 8:16 - “... make this man to understand the vision ...”

and Daniel 8:17 - “Understand, O son of man ...”

and Daniel 8:19 - “Behold, I will make thee know ...”

and Daniel 7:16 “So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.”

Compare:

Daniel 10:12 - “... for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart ...”

and Daniel 10:12 - “... to chasten thyself before thy God ...”

and Daniel 10:12 - “... thy words were heard ...”

to Daniel 9:23 - “At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth ...”

and Daniel 8:15 - “... sought for the meaning ...”

and Daniel 7:16 - “... asked him the truth of all this ...”

and Daniel 7:19 - “Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast ...”

Compare:

Daniel 10:19 - “O man greatly beloved ...”

to Daniel 9:21 - “... for thou art greatly beloved ...”

Compare:

Daniel 10:18 - “... like the appearance of a man ...”

to Daniel 9:21 - “... even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning ...”

and Daniel 8:15 - “... behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man ...”

and Daniel 8:16 - “... Gabriel ...”

and Daniel 7:16 - “... one of them that stood by ...”

Gabriel continues speaking to Daniel after lifting him up, telling him, how that Satan was resisting himself, so that the prophecies of Daniel 8-9 would fail. Gabriel needed the aid.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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3,023
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#40
Jesus is not a created god, and has no beginning as God, but has a beginning as the man Christ Jesus.

The Bible says that when the Ruler shall come who is Jesus He will be from everlasting which is to not have a beginning.

The Bible says that Jesus is God manifest in flesh, and He is the Word, and the Word was God, and He is the Almighty.

God said there was no God formed before Him, and there will be no God formed after Him.

Jesus is God and man, and according to Him being God He has no beginning, but according to His humanity He has a beginning.

This is what it is, and it speaks of Jesus being created according to His humanity.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to come in the future in flesh it is the same as it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

John 1.

The word of God is God revealing Himself to us by words written in a book, and the Word of God is God revealing Himself in a visible image, at first flesh, and then a glorified body in heaven.

The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and without the Word was not anything created that was created, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So the Word is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh before He started creation, which Adam was made in the image of God, and the New Testament Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the world, and that plan was God manifest in flesh.
All things were made with the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, eternal life, and to judge the angels and people.

Jesus is not a created god, for He is God Himself, but He was created as a human being, and God coming in flesh was the first plan God had before He started creation, so the man Christ Jesus is part of that first plan for Jesus is God and man, and the man Christ Jesus can be considered already existing before He is born for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until 4000 years later, for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, so the man Christ Jesus can be considered born before He is born.

And Jesus is the firstborn of all the creatures although He was born after them.

So Jesus being created in the beginning was not Him being a created god, but as the man Christ Jesus who can be considered created, and born in the beginning before it actually happened, for God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened.

Like the Lamb was slain, the prophets blood shed, and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world although they were future events.

Jesus is God that has no beginning, and not a created god, for He is from everlasting.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This cannot be applied to Michael for Jesus dwells in the light that no person can approach unto, and no person has ever seen Jesus, and no person will ever see Jesus, for He is the invisible God that showed us a visible manifestation of Himself.

Jesus is the only Potentate, Ruler, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, which cannot be said of Michael.
Matt - I enjoyed your post and read every word! Amen.

As I read, I thought about how God’s Word and plan is like “conception of a baby.”

A woman is pregnant yet, there is no baby.........yet. However, she has conceived - God has spoken ....it will happen..