Shabbat (Intent-- not Timing)

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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"testifying of how to know Him"

is not the same as

"testifying of Him"

which is it?
for example @Soyeong,
do the ark of the testimony, the ark of Moses and the ark of Noah teach us how to know Jesus or Who Jesus is?

is this how you think we can know Him? by building a box?
ot by understanding how these 3 speak of Him?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In Hebrews 3:18-19, they did not enter into God's rest because of their unbelief/disobedience, and in Exodus 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest from our work as God rested from His, and we should strive to enter into that rest so that no one may fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so he was not speaking in contrast with the weekly Sabbath, and you trying to use entering into God's rest to justify the same sort of disobedience is the opposite of what was being said.
You cited the wrong verse. Exodus 20:13 reads - "you shall not murder." Ezekiel 20:13 reads - Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. (plural) Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. The heart of the issue here is that their disobedience here was a manifestation of their UNBELIEF.

How about a little context.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did you see that? DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as those who truly are partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

To believe is to have faith and obedience which "follows" is works and is a "manifestation" of belief/faith. For those who did not hold fast, their disobedience was a manifestation of their UNBELIEF.

Christians are not Israelites under the law, so defiling God's Sabbaths (including the weekly Sabbath) is not an option for the body of Christ under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17) Ezekiel 20:1-13 is addressed to the Israelites under the old covenant of law. This is what happens when you don't rightly divide the word of truth.

In regard to Hebrews 4:9-11, see - Sabbath rest (4520) sabbatismos - Sermon Index
 

Anton

New member
Feb 9, 2024
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"Hear o Israel".......... The commandments were not given to the Gentiles.
Hello,
That is correct, nonetheless the principles still apply to all. Even though we are no longer under the tutelage of the law, we still follow the rest of the 10 commandments just as we would follow the instructions of our loving parents although no longer under their care as adults.
Additionally the principles of the Sabbath precedes the Mosaic law and thus apply to all of mankind, as was mentioned is a gift not a burden.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Hello,
That is correct, nonetheless the principles still apply to all. Even though we are no longer under the tutelage of the law, we still follow the rest of the 10 commandments just as we would follow the instructions of our loving parents although no longer under their care as adults.
Additionally the principles of the Sabbath precedes the Mosaic law and thus apply to all of mankind, as was mentioned is a gift not a burden.
God blessed the SEVENTH day (with no sabbath law for the Israelites to keep until Exodus 16). Now although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath being kept before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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The Sabbath started at Creation thus saith God Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 made for mankind thus saith Jesus Mark 2:27. Man was made in the image of God on the 6th day before the very first Sabbath Gen 1:26 Gen 2:1-3


Christ in His own Words said the Sabbath is made for everyone.
It is meant as a blessing.
For those who keep justice and do righteousnes
It is meant for those who love and serve Him
And hold fast His covenant

We see Abraham kept God’s commandments Gen 26:5. The Sabbath is a commandment of God. God’s people are servants of God, who love the name of God and seek justice and righteousness. Of course God’s prophets and followers kept the Sabbath, they were not in rebellion to God and we should not be either. If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15



56 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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You’re not looking at the clear scripture and trying to change it into something it clearly does not say. That’s a choice we can make, but we are told God’s Word doesn’t need our help. Pro 30:5-6 Pro 3:5-6

Jesus is so clear- heaven and earth would pass before something as small as a dot of an i or cross of a t would change from God’s law. Mat 5:18 because no one is above the authority of God.

Jesus commissioned the apostles to observe everything He commanded before ascending back to heaven. Mat 28:18-20. The apostles observed every Sabbath preaching God’s Word to both Jew and Gentile every Sabbath. Act 13:42-44 Acts 18:4, not once did the apostles teach anything different, nor do they have the authority. The authority belongs to Jesus- He personally wrote and spoke His Ten Commandments Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 and taught not to break the least of them as it affects our status in heaven May 5:19-30 and when we choose to keep our rules over obeying the Commandments of God again quoting from the Ten- Mat 15:3-14 Mar 7:7-13 ones heart is far from Him- the opposite of the New Covenant- God’s law in our hearts and minds. Heb 8:10 Jesus in His own words indicated the Sabbath would not end after the Cross Mat 24:20 and kept for eternity Isa 66:23. I’m not sure how one can separate believing in Jesus but not believing in His teachings. His covenant was ratified at the Cross- It Is Finished- nothing can be changed or added and while people like smooth teachings that sound good to the ear- like we can use our time on the Sabbath doing what we want instead of obeying God’s Words- Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy Exo 20:8-11 that Jesus said we are to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4. We have free will. I know we will not agree on this and thats okay, all gets sorted out soon enough, but once Jesus comes our fates will be sealed Rev 22:11 and why Jesus is calling us out of our false teachings before its too late Rev 18:4

Thanks for the chat. God bless.
 

vassal

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Jan 20, 2024
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So you say that commands must be obeyed both outwardly and inwardly. Then you say you have kept a certain command. Then when I ask what heart issue the command demands and you say you don't know. I think it's a fair question to ask how do you know you have actually kept the commandment, because by your own admission you don't even know what the commandment requires of you.
this is not what he said at all....
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In regard to Isaiah 56:2-7, foreigners were to "join themselves to the Lord;" and "love the name of the Lord;" and "be his servants;" and "take hold of God's covenant." The OLD COVENANT. But to do this they had to be circumcised, for God said: “No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary." (Ezekiel 44:9) When Gentiles thus "joined themselves to the Lord" they ceased being Gentiles and became proselytes to the Jewish religion. They kept the Sabbath AS JEWISH PROSELYTES, NOT as Gentiles.

But where are Gentiles as Gentiles ever commanded to keep the Sabbath? Furthermore, if the Sabbath was of universal application, why were the Gentiles called "strangers?" The apostle Paul, speaking of the Gentiles during the Jewish age, says they were "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?" (Ephesians 2:12)

And when God gave the Sabbath commandment at Sinai, why did he make it binding ONLY on "the stranger that is within your gates?" (Exodus 20:10) Where is the passage that proves the Sabbath was binding on the Gentile OUTSIDE the gates? All this shows the Sabbath was NOT universally applied. If it had been, there would have been no "strangers from the covenants of promise."

1000005788.jpg
 

vassal

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Jan 20, 2024
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how sad that you are only with Him once a week, no wonder you keep seeking rest!
You do not get it, the sabbath is also about obedience, why do you think? Who disobeys GOD? and what happens to them when they do? Have you no fear of the Lord? The Commandments are permanent non negotiable forever! it is written all over the bible
Jesus said if you Love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.
1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.
it's all over the place! Keep the commandments.
 

vassal

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Jan 20, 2024
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You answer alot of questions I don't ask and leave undone what I do ask.
Let's go one at a time. Why was the Sabbath on the 7th day?
This reply was for you also, i just forgot to add you to the reply.

You do not get it, the sabbath is also about obedience, why do you think? Who disobeys GOD? and what happens to them when they do? Have you no fear of the Lord? The Commandments are permanent non negotiable forever! it is written all over the bible
Jesus said if you Love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.
1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.
it's all over the place! Keep the commandments.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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"testifying of how to know Him"

is not the same as

"testifying of Him"

which is it?
There is no difference because who He is is also the way to know Him.

for example @Soyeong,
do the ark of the testimony, the ark of Moses and the ark of Noah teach us how to know Jesus or Who Jesus is?

is this how you think we can know Him? by building a box?
ot by understanding how these 3 speak of Him?
The Hebrews word "yada" refers to intimate knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know (yada) Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of God's character is the way to know Him, which is also the way to know the Son, who is the exact image of God's character (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he is the embodiment of holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and other aspects of God's character expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so the way to know him is by experiencing aspects of his character through following his example. For example, our good works in obedience to God's law testify about God's goodness, which is why they give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness, who are also knowing Him through experiencing His goodness. Likewise, by testifying about God's goodness, we are also expressing a belief in God's goodness, or in other words we are believing in Him and in the Son. Moreover, we are expressing our love for God's goodness, and the same goes for other aspects of God's character, so everything that God has specifically chosen to command to done in order to teach us how to love different aspects of His character, which is is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments.
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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In regard to Isaiah 56:2-7, foreigners were to "join themselves to the Lord;" and "love the name of the Lord;" and "be his servants;" and "take hold of God's covenant." The OLD COVENANT. But to do this they had to be circumcised, for God said: “No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary." (Ezekiel 44:9) When Gentiles thus "joined themselves to the Lord" they ceased being Gentiles and became proselytes to the Jewish religion. They kept the Sabbath AS JEWISH PROSELYTES, NOT as Gentiles.

But where are Gentiles as Gentiles ever commanded to keep the Sabbath? Furthermore, if the Sabbath was of universal application, why were the Gentiles called "strangers?" The apostle Paul, speaking of the Gentiles during the Jewish age, says they were "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?" (Ephesians 2:12)

And when God gave the Sabbath commandment at Sinai, why did he make it binding ONLY on "the stranger that is within your gates?" (Exodus 20:10) Where is the passage that proves the Sabbath was binding on the Gentile OUTSIDE the gates? All this shows the Sabbath was NOT universally applied. If it had been, there would have been no "strangers from the covenants of promise."

View attachment 260870
God’s holy mountain is not Old Covenant- it is where all Christians should aim to be.

Mat 4:17 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21. Sin is breaking God’s law Rom 7:7 breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12.

Jesus said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Man says forget the Sabbath day and we can do what we want.

Jesus said to live by faith and every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4. My faith is in Jesus and His every Word.
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
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My apologies for making it seem as though I'm repeating things, but you actually have much to learn about the Sabbath. You focus more on the letter of the law and miss what God is actually teaching and so while it appears you are keeping the Sabbath outwardly, you aren't actually keeping it as God would have us to. Without knowing the significance of the Sabbath and what God's intentions are in requiring it, you cannot keep the Sabbath.
you who do not follow GOD's commandments want to instruct others on the commandments??? very strange indeed!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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God’s holy mountain is not Old Covenant- it is where all Christians should aim to be.

Mat 4:17 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21. Sin is breaking God’s law Rom 7:7 breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12.

Jesus said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Man says forget the Sabbath day and we can do what we want.

Jesus said to live by faith and every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4. My faith is in Jesus and His every Word.
Your achilees heel is that you mix the old and new covenants together.
 

SabbathBlessing

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Dec 13, 2023
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Your achilees heel is that you mix the old and new covenants together.
The New Covenant is established on better promises, not better laws. Heb 8:6. The New Covenant still has God's law written in the heart Heb 8:10 and why it is still a sin to break the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12 and breaking the least of them affects our status in heaven Mat 5:19-30 as it is what we will be judged by regardless is we accept it or not. Covering our sins seems like a really bad idea to me Pro 28:13 and without God's law we would depend on our righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172, our truth instead of God's Truth Psa 119:151 Only His Truth saves.
 

mailmandan

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The New Covenant is established on better promises, not better laws. Heb 8:6. The New Covenant still has God's law written in the heart Heb 8:10 and why it is still a sin to break the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12 and breaking the least of them affects our status in heaven Mat 5:19-30 as it is what we will be judged by regardless is we accept it or not. Covering our sins seems like a really bad idea to me Pro 28:13 and without God's law we would depend on our righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172, our truth instead of God's Truth Psa 119:151 Only His Truth saves.
2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
 

SabbathBlessing

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2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
So now are you claiming Paul is teaching we can worship other gods, vain God's holy name, covet or steal?

The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 this is the condemnation , the law is holy righteous and good. Romans 7:12 and shows us our sins Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 like a mirror Romans 3:20 James 1:22-24 and so we don't depend on our righteousness, but God's righteous standard of living Psa 119:172. We have another choice instead of living for sin, we can live for Christ who wants to change us from the inside out and in doing so we would be obeying everything He commands. John 14:15-18

Jesus showed us what it means to live by the Spirit connecting our thoughts and feelings with obedience to the commandments teaching not to break the least of these as it affects our status in heaven. Jesus never taught we can literally commit adultery as long as we don't have lust in our hearts or literally commit murder as long as anger is not in our hearts or break the least of these commandments. If one is living in the Spirit, God's law is automatically kept. If we break God's law without seeking repentance which means a change of heart and direction and are hostile to God's law this is the fruit of the carnal mind who cannot please God. Rom 8:7-8 1 John 3:4 Rev 22:15

God gives us lots of ways to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. The wheat and tares grow together and only God knows which is which. Jesus taught to live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God- I have faith in His teachings.
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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You’re not looking at the clear scripture and trying to change it into something it clearly does not say. That’s a choice we can make, but we are told God’s Word doesn’t need our help. Pro 30:5-6 Pro 3:5-6

Jesus is so clear- heaven and earth would pass before something as small as a dot of an i or cross of a t would change from God’s law. Mat 5:18 because no one is above the authority of God.

Jesus commissioned the apostles to observe everything He commanded before ascending back to heaven. Mat 28:18-20. The apostles observed every Sabbath preaching God’s Word to both Jew and Gentile every Sabbath. Act 13:42-44 Acts 18:4, not once did the apostles teach anything different, nor do they have the authority. The authority belongs to Jesus- He personally wrote and spoke His Ten Commandments Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 and taught not to break the least of them as it affects our status in heaven May 5:19-30 and when we choose to keep our rules over obeying the Commandments of God again quoting from the Ten- Mat 15:3-14 Mar 7:7-13 ones heart is far from Him- the opposite of the New Covenant- God’s law in our hearts and minds. Heb 8:10 Jesus in His own words indicated the Sabbath would not end after the Cross Mat 24:20 and kept for eternity Isa 66:23. I’m not sure how one can separate believing in Jesus but not believing in His teachings. His covenant was ratified at the Cross- It Is Finished- nothing can be changed or added and while people like smooth teachings that sound good to the ear- like we can use our time on the Sabbath doing what we want instead of obeying God’s Words- Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy Exo 20:8-11 that Jesus said we are to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Mat 4:4. We have free will. I know we will not agree on this and thats okay, all gets sorted out soon enough, but once Jesus comes our fates will be sealed Rev 22:11 and why Jesus is calling us out of our false teachings before its too late Rev 18:4

Thanks for the chat. God bless.
Tell me you don't know the character of the Father without saying you don't know the character of the Father.

The 10 Commandments and the Law were added because of transgressions. They were added to put limits on the consequences of sin so that the people through whom the Messiah would come were preserved. They were preserved. The Messiah came. Jesus said "It is finished."

So let me ask: What if the Jews never disobeyed God and, instead, came up into God's presence at Sinai?

Let me help: He would have never given the 10 Commandments and the Law. They would have become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.