Should wine be used for the Lord's Supper?

[7seasrekeyed]

Right..I mean, we are kind of stuck with the results of the insistence of self-righteous church ladies of the 1800's. That's why men should form doctrine, and not be led about by women.

you have made several comments against women and it is further proof of your cleaving to Calvinism rather than Jesus

news flash: God made men AND women in HIS image

now you might scorn that, but it is a fact and your dismissal of half of the body of Christ is so revealing of your heart

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

Really?
GOD IS a SPIRIT and those who worship HIM MUST worship HIM In Spirit and In TRUTH.

Do you believe that drinking alcohol at a gathering can get a person drunk?Of course It will.

Do you think we can approach GOD In TRUTH under the Influence (because of the weakness of the flesh sin warring against the mind and bringing us Into captivity to the law of sin which Is In our bodies) of course we can’t.
Thank you JESUS for bringing grace.
Now that we have grace through faith we will Desire to be like the new creation we have become,GODs perfect handiwork created In the Image of JESUS unto good works.

JESUS the VINE ,we the branches, members of the body receiving sustenance from the VINE displaying spiritual fruit.

Drinking real wine with alcohol Is only going to be confusion and GOD IS not the author of confusion.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Really?
GOD IS a SPIRIT and those who worship HIM MUST worship HIM In Spirit and In TRUTH.

Do you believe that drinking alcohol at a gathering can get a person drunk?Of course It will.

Do you think we can approach GOD In TRUTH under the Influence (because of the weakness of the flesh sin warring against the mind and bringing us Into captivity to the law of sin which Is In our bodies) of course we can’t.
Thank you JESUS for bringing grace.
Now that we have grace through faith we will Desire to be like the new creation we have become,GODs perfect handiwork created In the Image of JESUS unto good works.

JESUS the VINE ,we the branches, members of the body receiving sustenance from the VINE displaying spiritual fruit.

Drinking real wine with alcohol Is only going to be confusion and GOD IS not the author of confusion.

It's obvious from Scripture that it was used in communion in the early church.

I think it's strictly tradition that is causing folks to become indignant about this issue.

Does Scripture describe a communion with grape juice, or wine?

This is amusing

 

[calibob]

My position is that communion has overtones concerning union with Christ, and the slight alcohol creates a social environment which is reminiscent of this.

I don't believe that the amount of alcohol was just a thimble anyways.

God uses various ordinances like this to engage the senses and to preach the gospel through sensory means.

I know it's difficult for mass production, assembly line Christians to comprehend the original intentions, but I believe there was a reason behind the use of a small amount of alcohol at the LORD's supper.

What I said only applied to the 1 and only pre sacrifice meal the night before he was executed. There would have been a reason for the Lord to not drink fermented drink or leavened bread that night, 1 time in history. We aren't forbidden to do so and most pot lucks I've been to there was beer and wine flowing freely. Like after a funeral, at a tail gate party, family picnic or a Christmas party with co-workers etc.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

What I said only applied to the 1 and only pre sacrifice meal the night before he was executed. There would have been a reason for the Lord to not drink fermented drink or leavened bread that night, 1 time in history. We aren't forbidden to do so and most pot lucks I've been to there was beer and wine flowing freely. Like after a funeral, at a tail gate party, family picnic or a Christmas party with co-workers etc.

I can understand the "leavened bread" part because I believe communion should be unleavened bread. I'm not sure why wine would be inappropriate.

 

[calibob]

Really?
GOD IS a SPIRIT and those who worship HIM MUST worship HIM In Spirit and In TRUTH.

Do you believe that drinking alcohol at a gathering can get a person drunk?Of course It will.

Do you think we can approach GOD In TRUTH under the Influence (because of the weakness of the flesh sin warring against the mind and bringing us Into captivity to the law of sin which Is In our bodies) of course we can’t.
Thank you JESUS for bringing grace.
Now that we have grace through faith we will Desire to be like the new creation we have become,GODs perfect handiwork created In the Image of JESUS unto good works.

JESUS the VINE ,we the branches, members of the body receiving sustenance from the VINE displaying spiritual fruit.

Drinking real wine with alcohol Is only going to be confusion and GOD IS not the author of confusion.

Have you never drank alcohol without getting intoxicated like at a dinner especially? Most people have a liver enzyme named Alcohol Dehydrogenase. Alcohol dehydrogenases That help direct the body to metabolize alcohol properly. They are a class of zinc enzymes which catalyze the oxidation of primary and secondary alcohols to the corresponding aldehyde or ketone by the transfer of a hydride anion to NAD+ with release of a proton. From: Biological Inorganic Chemistry.

Lack of which makes people more susceptible to intoxication. Intoxication means; self poisoned. Normal people can metabolize alcohol below a toxic level. The time and ammount conumed varies with each individual,

 

[calibob]

I can understand the "leavened bread" part because I believe communion should be unleavened bread. I'm not sure why wine would be inappropriate.

Leavening and yeast are the same things. It makes bread rise and wine ferment. New wine is unfermented. That's all.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Leavening and yeast are the same things. It makes bread rise and wine ferment. New wine is unfermented. That's all.

Ah ok..

But leaven doesn't always indicate sin. Unleavened bread was typological of Christ's sinless body. I'm not sure why wine would be an issue.

For instance, when I was part of a cultic group that observed days of unleavened bread, they removed all the bread from their homes but not alcohol.

 

[calibob]

. Intoxication means; self poisoned.

Correction it means ingested poison. More than the liver can sepperate for carbohydrates and water, the more toxic it becomes. Kind of like bread a little yeast leavens the whole loaf but to much ruins it.

 

[calibob]

Ah ok..

But leaven doesn't always indicate sin. Unleavened bread was typological of Christ's sinless body. I'm not sure why wine would be an issue.

For instance, when I was part of a cultic group that observed days of unleavened bread, they removed all the bread from their homes but not alcohol.

I was using the symbolic nature. Not the alcohol but the Yeast, it has been symbolic of sin since Moses.

 

[calibob]

We weren't commanded not to drink fermented wine. My statement was only about 1 night so no mater what he was completely blameless of even imaginary sins.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Should wine be used for the LORD's Supper?

I think so.

It's plain from Scripture that wine was used for communion, yet it is common practice in the USA for most Protestants to use a substitute such as grape juice.

I think this is a remnant of the Holiness movement.

Other excuses are used, such as the fear that alcoholics will relapse if they drink the small amount of wine in the communion thimble, but is this realistic? I am sure churches would provide a substitute if there was this concern, for those individuals.

What do you think?

And, what rationale do you use for this plainly unbiblical practice?

By the way, one individual from the Seventh Day Adventists told me it was blasphemous to acknowledge that Jesus created real alcohol, and drank alcohol in a similar conversation.

Hello UnitedWithChrist,

First of all, I think either a substitute or real wine can be used. I personally use grape juice when I partake in my own home. Regarding which is used, the meaning behind wine is figurative of representing the Lord blood that was shed for the sins of many. Likewise, the bread is figurative of His body that was broken for us. For the latter, I use a cracker. The purpose is to simply remember the Lord's body that was broken for us and His blood that was shed for us.

Regarding Jesus creating alcohol, He did so at the wedding in Cana:

"Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone serves the fine wine first, and then the cheap wine after the guests are drunk. But you have saved the fine wine until now!”

So, it appears that Jesus did turn the water into literal wine, unless we think that people can get drunk on grape juice. Also, Paul told Timothy to stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of his stomach and his frequent illnesses.

 

[calibob]

Right..I mean, we are kind of stuck with the results of the insistence of self-righteous church ladies of the 1800's. That's why men should form doctrine, and not be led about by women.

The only doctrine to be adhered to was written in the first century and Who did the angel in Mark 16 tell in vs 7) "But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see Him, just as He told you.’” 8So the women left the tomb and ran away, trembling and bewildered. And in their fear they did not say a word to anyone.…
Berean Study Bible

 

[Melach]

Thank you post Of all the people I have come to know during my time here, I find you to be one of the most well informed, respectful, and reasonable people in your presentations of Scriptural Truth. I also appreciate your sense of humor I found this:

In the Hebrew and Greek, the word Wine is used to mean Gape Juice either fermented or unfermented. In Hebrew, the word is “yayin” H3196 except for where New Wine is specifically used the word “tiyros” (H8492) is a blessing from God and can be used to mean grapes, or juice, or New Wine (unfermented). In the New Testament, the word for wine is “oinos” G3631, and can mean either fermented, or unfermented grape juice.

When Wine is used to Symbolize Doctrine it is “Old Wine” or fermented grape juice, that is False Doctrine and “New Wine” or Unfermented grape juice, that is True Doctrine. (see Isaiah 28:7). Fermentation is a Symbol of Sin especially in wine where “Leaven” or yeast, is used to make the wine ferment. Yeast is also the leaven in bread that causes bread to rise. Since Wine and Bread are both symbols of the body of Christ, neither can be made with leaven or yeast which is a symbol for sin, since that would destroy the symbols of communion and Passover. The Greek word “Zume” (Strong’s G2219) is the word used for Leaven which also means “fermenting matter” source

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

why would they say that about grape juice? thats clearly alcoholic new wine talked about. if you see someone talking crazy or mumbling you dont say "looks like he has had too much grape juice". you would probably say "thats a drunken person". which here apostles were falsely accused of it.

but thats why i believe every time wine is in the bible its alcoholic wine. otherwise it would be translated as juice. that word also exists.

 

[Melach]

my answer is yes as i spoke to you guys in private already. but Ahwatukee's post make me ask another question: how can anyone have communion if they are alone on an island somewhere? in my mind communion means fellowship with others , but maybe in those situations you can do it alone too?

i think why man is needed for water baptism communion etc its because we are Lord's hands here on earth to do His will He uses us the people

 

[calibob]

@UnitedWithChrist but in John 20:17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" 18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the LORD!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

The most significant message in history was entrusted to a WOMAN!

 

[TMS]

The spiritual meaning is what is most important and to use fermented corrupted grape juice to represent the blood of Jesus is wrong. Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Alcohol is proven to reduce your mental and physical wellbeing so i see it as sin. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit so don't corrupt it.
Joh_6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Why use alcoholic wine if you can use unfermented wine and remember the meaning in the same way. Jesus is going to drink it with us in Heaven and i don't think it will be fermented and alcoholic in heaven.

 

[Melach]

interestingly, the church I grew up in always served fermented wine but would give non fermented to those who objected

obviously the wine described in scripture is fermented

drinking a little Welch's would not have helped Timothy's digestion at all

FYI and to whomever it may concern:

there have been threads on drinking wine or observing the last supper with fermented drink before on CC and everyone seems to have an opinion

just like this thread

lucky we got the right opinion hahaha

but really who objected? they seem to me like people in John 6 who get offended of Jesus' teaching that. i feel bad for the new pastors starting up they have to deal with grown up babies always demanding special treatment.
my church serves grape juice, i disagree but i keep my mouth shut like a big boy

 

[calibob]

lucky we got the right opinion hahaha

but really who objected? they seem to me like people in John 6 who get offended of Jesus' teaching that. i feel bad for the new pastors starting up they have to deal with grown up babies always demanding special treatment.
my church serves grape juice, i disagree but i keep my mouth shut like a big boy

I'm an ALCOHOLIC; alcohol triggers in me a phenomena of craving to something I'm allergic to. So I can not be trusted to drink it but that's MY problem so I'd be fine if both were served so I could abstain from fermented wine while others enjoy what dosn't bother them. If it were shrimp rather than alcohol, I wouldn't demand that others abstain from shrimp!

 

[Melach]

The spiritual meaning is what is most important and to use fermented corrupted grape juice to represent the blood of Jesus is wrong. Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Alcohol is proven to reduce your mental and physical wellbeing so i see it as sin. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit so don't corrupt it.
Joh_6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Why use alcoholic wine if you can use unfermented wine and remember the meaning in the same way. Jesus is going to drink it with us in Heaven and i don't think it will be fermented and alcoholic in heaven.

looking at john 6:53 its a big deal


are u saying Jesus caused people to stumble by not only drinking wine but turning water into wine at a wedding where people were already well drunk it says? dont corrupt the temple now Jesus be careful.

if alcohol is a sin, you are calliing Jesus the Lord and Savior a sinner because he drank wine and made it. and st.paul encouraged timothy to sin by having a little wine for his stomach. you are also calling God someone who encourages people to sin and people to stumble because God said:

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Psa_104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

yuo dont seem to know anything about this subject?