Showing your faith by your works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,442
690
113
42
#41
How many works justify a man? How often are works needed to justify? If I slip up and have a bad day, week or year, how many works is needed to justify my salvation? Where does Paul say justification is by works?
See this is a straw man argument, and has nothing at all to do with what's being said. Thinking of it in amounts like this is 100% fleshly thinking. God changes our very natures spiritually when we are born again, it is this change that causes these "works" in our flesh. The amount of work is irrelevant, because He uses each one of us differently, you can't start measuring and adding it up. That is so far from the Spirit and truth to be completely irrelevant. It's the change of our nature that is being saved, that is free, by His grace through faith in Jesus, a gift none of us can earn by work, and He grants us repentance and makes us new, this is when our dead spirit is given life and reconciled to His, changing us forever. Now able to actually please the Creator of the universe, and I can only speak for myself, but I long to please my Father now, and it's only by His power and ALL for His glory. I praise Jesus name for everything every day and am on fire to proclaim His name. These are all things He has blessed me with and nothing "I do". You are thinking in terms of how much to "be saved", or at least that's how I take it, but the "works" being discussed here are a result of being saved, they are what happen AFTER being saved. See?

Also I know I'm direct, and text is so hard to convey attitude, but I was not trying to be aggressive or "attack" at all here. I understand what you mean and agree with your point, it's only I believe we are talking about 2 different things. I still am glad to get to talk with you, and I hope you have a great day. :D
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,966
11,462
113
56
#42
I can say that I personally have felt EXTREME condemnation about not having "done enough" in regards to what was, is, and will be done for me.

So, I will posit...what is a work?
Strong's Concordance #2041
ergon: work
Original Word: ἔργον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ergon
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-gon)
Definition: work
Usage: work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.

HELPS Word-studies
2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose). - https://www.biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work." A good work.

How can we judge the spirit in which this work was done? By its fruits ONLY? If so, is it logical to assume that we all have different growth times? That the soil of the heart, so to speak, is of utmost importance?
Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground/soil is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,175
1,334
113
#43
Aaahhh! Dear Lord. Why can't people understand that OUR works have NOTHING to do with the work your Son did in Saving us from the penalty of our sin? And that to believe they do is actually a HUGE insult to Jesus and the Spirit of Grace?

James is telling those that call themselves brethren to examine THEMSELVES whether they actually HAVE been born again.

Some had a dead confession of faith. We all know these people in our lives. They SAY they are Christian, they claim the Name of Christ, but their very actions or non actions tell the real truth.

James is NOT saying doing works is part of how we are saved. He is saying they ACCOMPANY Salvation.
I do not think the OP said anything about works being a part of how we are saved. If he did, I sure missed it.

I simply felt his heartbeat that he wants to challenge us to live out our faith in a real productive way for God's glory!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,175
1,334
113
#44
Let me give you a scenario. Suppose you wake up one morning and everything went wrong for you
  1. You quarreled with your wife.
  2. You kicked the dog
  3. Your kids scream at you and say correctly that you are a bad Father.
  4. On the way to work, someone cuts into your lane while driving and you let us a cuss word out of anger.
  5. And so on and so forth.
The moment you reach the workplace, you feel very bad about all these "bad things" that you have done.

Suddenly, your colleague ask you to pray for him, because he knows you are a Christian, he is sick and he wants you to pray that he will recover. Would you be
  1. Most eager to pray for him, being confident that God will use you mightily to heal him?
  2. Feeling awkward and tell him, "sorry today is not a good day"?
If you lean more towards the second one, you believe that works, or the lack of it, has something to do with your faith. :)
So what do you do when you have a bad morning? Is it OK if you quarrel with your wife, kick the dog, get angry with your kids, and cuss? Are you saying a person should just ignore all this stuff and keep smiling and being a "good Christian"?

Is it OK then if I watch pornography all night, have sex with prostitutes, and then go to my church preach the next morning? And if I "feel awkward" and tell my congregation "sorry I can't preach because today is not a good day" then that means that I "believe that works, or the lack of it, has something to do with faith"?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,175
1,334
113
#45
The op is not honest....no one states that....the contention has always been does salvation require a blend of faith plus works....NO....SALVATION IS BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS...

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

WE HAVE ALL SAID A BELIEVER WILL BEAR FRUIT OR HAVE AT LEAST ONE WORK....

How about some honesty....LOOK thatbword up and do a post on it!!
What about actually trying to understand the burden of the OP? There is another thread going that is emphasizing that SALVATION IS BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. Most people here agree with that: we are saved by grace through faith and that is what keeps us saved: works are the fruit of God's work in our lives.

I think the OP wants to emphasize and is concerned about the fact that some Christians seem to never live for God and just simply say that "I am saved and going to heaven". He want people to really actively live for God and do good deeds to bring honor and glory to Him.
Did the OP say here that "salvation requires a blend of faith plus works"? Maybe he did and I missed it?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,175
1,334
113
#46
If you feel further away from God whenever those works of the flesh happen, but feel closer to God when things are going well, then you need to repent from dead works.
So if I watch pornography all night and spend the night with prostitutes I should still "feel close to God" in the morning? And I should just "repent of my dead works" and go back to living my Christian life?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#47
So if I watch pornography all night and spend the night with prostitutes I should still "feel close to God" in the morning? And I should just "repent of my dead works" and go back to living my Christian life?
My point is, you must still be able to say, "I am the righteousness of God in Christ", even in the midst of those sins. And yes, if people want you to pray for them, don't think that because of those sins, God will not hear your prayer or love you less.

That is not an excuse to go ahead and sin. That is the way to break whatever hold that sin has on your life still. I hope you can understand the difference.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#48
Ye who make a show of promoting your faith works and boasting of them in the streets for all to see have your reward.......

......True works are of the heart and come from the lord putting it in and on your heart and the reward is in the heart......

If You must show your works to prove your faith then you had no faith to begin with....
......For your faith is in your works and in the rewards you believe you make God a debtor to......

......The true fruit of the spirit is the works done without expectation of reward for the spirit knows the reward is in the giving of ones self we are fulfilled within.

........No man can judge the righteousness of the works of another.....Only God knows who freely gives from the heart without expectation of reward.....

........If ye judge each others show of faith by works ye have your reward and God owes ye nothing.....

Because it was God who made ye able....and so you have done nothing but made your self all the more in his debt.....

You can not pay your debt to God and you can not bank rewards he owes to you....

Because of yourselves you are nothing but filthy rags in all your works that you expect a return from.....

Works are invalidated by expectation.....

Works sincere laid upon a mans heart by the grace of God are for Gods Glory not yours to say look how big my faith bank account is.....

Your faith in expectation of works rewards beyond the infilling of the spirit....will never be justified.....

It is a false claim against God who enables!!!

God gives life and takes life away .....if you have a good works it is only because he gave it to you.....

You can't give God what is already his.....he makes you able and he can disable you!

By his Grace and for his Glory
Only!!!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
14,424
2,978
113
#49
See this is a straw man argument, and has nothing at all to do with what's being said. Thinking of it in amounts like this is 100% fleshly thinking. God changes our very natures spiritually when we are born again, it is this change that causes these "works" in our flesh. The amount of work is irrelevant, because He uses each one of us differently, you can't start measuring and adding it up. That is so far from the Spirit and truth to be completely irrelevant. It's the change of our nature that is being saved, that is free, by His grace through faith in Jesus, a gift none of us can earn by work, and He grants us repentance and makes us new, this is when our dead spirit is given life and reconciled to His, changing us forever. Now able to actually please the Creator of the universe, and I can only speak for myself, but I long to please my Father now, and it's only by His power and ALL for His glory. I praise Jesus name for everything every day and am on fire to proclaim His name. These are all things He has blessed me with and nothing "I do". You are thinking in terms of how much to "be saved", or at least that's how I take it, but the "works" being discussed here are a result of being saved, they are what happen AFTER being saved. See?

Also I know I'm direct, and text is so hard to convey attitude, but I was not trying to be aggressive or "attack" at all here. I understand what you mean and agree with your point, it's only I believe we are talking about 2 different things. I still am glad to get to talk with you, and I hope you have a great day. :D
No problem brother, but my point is after one is saved, no works or amount of works prove one is saved or lost. Only God knows the heart of a man. Should the believer go onto good works? Absolutely, but not necessarily in all circumstances.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#50
My point is, you must still be able to say, "I am the righteousness of God in Christ", even in the midst of those sins. And yes, if people want you to pray for them, don't think that because of those sins, God will not hear your prayer or love you less.

That is not an excuse to go ahead and sin. That is the way to break whatever hold that sin has on your life still. I hope you can understand the difference.
I hate to say this sounds like an insane serial killer half way through murdering people saying I am
just a normal guy with normal hobbies, nothing wrong with me.

No where in the Lord is He ok with sin or sinning. The Lord goes out of His way to say we are guilty
once we become aware of sin, and sometimes even when we are not aware.

'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.
When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering a male goat without defect.
Lev 4:22-23

27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty.
28 When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect.
Lev 4:27-28

5 'When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned
6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
Leviticus 5:5-6

God does not ignore sin or call sinners righteous, only purified and cleansed people are
called righteous saints in Christ.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#51
I hate to say this sounds like an insane serial killer half way through murdering people saying I am
just a normal guy with normal hobbies, nothing wrong with me.

No where in the Lord is He ok with sin or sinning. The Lord goes out of His way to say we are guilty
once we become aware of sin, and sometimes even when we are not aware.

'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.
When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering a male goat without defect.
Lev 4:22-23

27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty.
28 When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect.
Lev 4:27-28

5 'When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned
6 and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
Leviticus 5:
God does not ignore sin or call sinners righteous, only purified and cleansed people are
called righteous saints in Christ.
Okay then. I can now understand why you keep promoting works in your gospel. So that is your belief on how God sees us.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#52
Okay then. I can now understand why you keep promoting works in your gospel. So that is your belief on how God sees us.
There are people who say the Father only sees Jesus when He looks at believers.
This then creates some logical problems. The Father can never see growth, maturity, struggles,
development, because all He sees is perfect believers.

If you read the sermon on the mount, God looks at our behaviour and how it reflects His work
in our lives. He knows it so well He rewards it. And it is the reward in a sense is why we are
meant to put these things into action. We become like Jesus by obeying and following.

Paul desires to deliver to Jesus the disciples who have come to Christ through his ministry

14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
16 as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.
Phil 2:14-16

Paul is saying these believers will become blameless and pure as a result of their actions, or
after being cleansed and purified will not be defiled by their behaviour.

When you say "promoting works" is like Jesus does not call us to works, a demonstration of His
work in our hearts.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,976
3,206
113
#53
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
I don't think i have ever seen anyone in here post that Faith does not have anything to do with works...

The difference in opinion between Faith and Works i have observed on this forum is confined to which one obtains salvation for a person..
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,442
690
113
42
#54
No problem brother, but my point is after one is saved, no works or amount of works prove one is saved or lost. Only God knows the heart of a man. Should the believer go onto good works? Absolutely, but not necessarily in all circumstances.
I would agree with that 100%, just because you do "works" proves absolutely nothing. Where we kind of part ways is when you want to go into trying to "prove" that a Christian can be saved and do nothing. 1st I have no idea at all why any Christian would EVER want to make this argument, but I hear it a lot, and honestly I truly can't stand to hear a Christian always defending sin. Also please understand I am speaking generally and not accusing you. By His power I can boldly proclaim that works are evidence of ones salvation, like you said the works buy you nothing, and are no kind of payment in any way, but I DO say is that if you are saved you will do works, you have to by nature now to glorify our Savior. That's what being saved does, it's the WHOLE point.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
14,424
2,978
113
#55
I would agree with that 100%, just because you do "works" proves absolutely nothing. Where we kind of part ways is when you want to go into trying to "prove" that a Christian can be saved and do nothing. 1st I have no idea at all why any Christian would EVER want to make this argument, but I hear it a lot, and honestly I truly can't stand to hear a Christian always defending sin. Also please understand I am speaking generally and not accusing you. By His power I can boldly proclaim that works are evidence of ones salvation, like you said the works buy you nothing, and are no kind of payment in any way, but I DO say is that if you are saved you will do works, you have to by nature now to glorify our Savior. That's what being saved does, it's the WHOLE point.
Can you give some works that are evidence of salvation?

Also, what about the many who get saved but have zero discipleship, zero biblical knowledge, zero influence in their lives for the Lord, but they got saved upon hearing about Jesus Christ? Are they really going to live out good works for the Lord? I'm not giving Christians a pass on sin, but we all continue to sin after salvation.
 

MikkoAinasoja

Senior Member
Nov 19, 2014
683
49
28
43
#56
"Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?"

That's the way it is and that's the way they like to keep it.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
1,925
1,249
113
#57
You can kick yourself all you like if that's what you're into and it's great if other people benefit from it......but....
Just don't go to overboard with it....cause he said Love others as you do yourself.....and that has the implication to love yourself in it.......if you're a masochist and kicking yourself to hard then you aren't being obedient either......it's ok bro.....God loves you more than maybe you love yourself.....
.......No matter how much you do.....you....will NEVER.....be able to outgive Jesus or God!
You can even Martyr yourself and you still wouldn't equal them.....Just not possible to equal or outgive God.....
.......Never happen they gave and give life to the world so be sure to Love the life he gave you in gratitude and love yourself in reverance of him also......You don't need to be in condemnation of yourself.....😀

I feel you. I appreciate it...I've been working through it with the Lord's guidance. I just read Psalm 127 and I feel like it applies to my situation and possibly others. Self-love is hard for me. I'm still learning to love my flesh and it's hard to discern the appropriate ways to love it and nourish it. Tis a struggle ;)

As far as outgiving God, I don't feel like I can...but it's waiting on him to give people things in the proper season that's the challenge. I see a need, I want to fill it. At the same time giving someone a bunch of money when that might work for some isn't loving them if it causes destruction by giving them too much too soon. THAT I struggle with being patient about and I rebuke it NOW.

Anyway, thanks.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work." A good work.

Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground/soil is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Yeah that's what I was referencing. How do we focus on our soil? I believe it's a constant cultivation process aligning with the greatest commandment. the "how" though is a little vague and each one of us has a different cultivation process it seems. What do you think?

What do you think that scripture means but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body... is this referring to the body of believers or just that there is more to taking care of the physical needs of the flesh than just food and clothing? I take it both ways...spiritual edification and spiritual "food" as well as treating our body as a temple...which requires physical cultivation as well beyond just eating.

Anyway, curious to hear your take.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,381
113
#58
What about actually trying to understand the burden of the OP? There is another thread going that is emphasizing that SALVATION IS BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS. Most people here agree with that: we are saved by grace through faith and that is what keeps us saved: works are the fruit of God's work in our lives.

I think the OP wants to emphasize and is concerned about the fact that some Christians seem to never live for God and just simply say that "I am saved and going to heaven". He want people to really actively live for God and do good deeds to bring honor and glory to Him.
Did the OP say here that "salvation requires a blend of faith plus works"? Maybe he did and I missed it?
All I can say is....and re read the OP and pay attention to EVERY WORD.......I for one am SICK of people making false blanket statements about those that believe salvation is 100% eternally given by grace through faith with NO OTHER ATTACHMENTS TO GAIN THE ETERNAL LIFE AND SALVATION OFFERED in Christ....NAMELY

A. We can sin and live like the devil because we believe in eternal security

B. We do not have to do anything after being saved

Both of the above are false, blanket statements and I am sick of that blather being stated as facts and then erroneously applied to us.....!!!!

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,175
1,334
113
#59
All I can say is....and re read the OP and pay attention to EVERY WORD.......I for one am SICK of people making false blanket statements about those that believe salvation is 100% eternally given by grace through faith with NO OTHER ATTACHMENTS TO GAIN THE ETERNAL LIFE AND SALVATION OFFERED in Christ....NAMELY

A. We can sin and live like the devil because we believe in eternal security

B. We do not have to do anything after being saved

Both of the above are false, blanket statements and I am sick of that blather being stated as facts and then erroneously applied to us.....!!!!

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
You articulate your point well, and you are right: that is - that OSAS people are often erroneously accused of teaching that "we can live like the devil because we believe in eternal security". Got it -- That is sad - and I understand that makes you mad!

In the same way - some of here who do not believe in OSAS get quite sick and tired of being accused that we teach salvation by works, when we never say anything like that, and do not believe that at all.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,381
113
#60
You articulate your point well, and you are right: that is - that OSAS people are often erroneously accused of teaching that "we can live like the devil because we believe in eternal security". Got it -- That is sad - and I understand that makes you mad!

In the same way - some of here who do not believe in OSAS get quite sick and tired of being accused that we teach salvation by works, when we never say anything like that, and do not believe that at all.
Make no mistake if one teaches a losable salvation or one that is maintained by works....by default it is a works based salvation....there is a difference....JESUS BY FAITH WITH ANY EMBELLISHMENT other than faith is a works based salvation, James used ro teach works required is a works basef salvation....the following is clear...

One who DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES <--HIS FAITH IS CRWDITIED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS

Exactly why Paul.concluded that a MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS OF THE LAW!!

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness